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The Moral Deficit

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posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by newsoul
 


Yes, you have a very balanced way of looking at this.




posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 10:01 PM
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So what say you ATS. Where do you see the biggest moral deficits in our society and what can be done, if anything to fix it?


I'm confident, that soon there will be no more moral deficits. Because soon us humans will blow each other to hell because of our disability to find a shared viewpoint regarding the question, what is right and what is wrong.

The irony is, that those of us who'll hit the buttons will consider themselves as morally superior to their adversaries.

I'm sure, in the silence following the nuclear big bang, god will scratch it's head and think about if next time it shouldn't avoid any script and let evolution play out just by chance.

It might produce more sustainable results.




Post Scriptum:

Wasn't it the snake [a.k.a. the devil] that made Eve eat from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

That is, what made Adam and Eve lose their paradise.

The knowledge of good and evil.
edit on 24/1/12 by Peloquin because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by RSF77
 


From your post: "That is what I call morals, they are self evident, you don't need anyone to tell you what they are if you truly understand the pain that all living things are susceptible too, even you." I find these words very profound. And I agree. And I am not an atheist

edit on 24-1-2012 by newsoul because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 11:41 PM
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There are acts which are relatively immoral that should not be outlawed or legislated. This includes things like: promiscuous behavior, bestiality, prostitution, gambling, drug use, & other behaviors/habits which some would consider abhorrent or wrong.

Acts of violence are a different creature because the consensus is, whether or not you enjoy hurting other people, it cannot be tolerated. Abortion falls into this spectrum, but the real debate is at what point can the fetus be considered a person. I believe as a fact that would be when the brain is developed/lower bounds of sentience. When it's only a tiny mass of cells without any organs, including a brain; the issue is less controversial.

Yet for some they believe all abortion is not immoral; and from an intellectual/logical standpoint that's simply false. Aborting a developed fetus is killing a human being no matter which way you cut it (no pun intended).



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 12:14 AM
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Originally posted by darkbake
Real morality should be based upon reason and science, not religion. They should be based on critical thinking and freedom, not suppression. Religions often see a lot of things as being "wrong" that aren't to other people, and people that are religious often accept these beliefs without even thinking about them.

However, critical thinking does reveal a bunch of morals that do exist, and these are things that are healthy or not healthy for the individual. For example, doing heavy drugs can interfere with a person's life and it would be better for them if they didn't do them.


Great post! A move in the right direction - critical thinking. Every human life is precious and means something special to another, for no one is born out of a rock, and what one does, one influences or affect another within our civilised society moving towards common aspirations and leaving none behind.

I just wish to add - Religion ( IF un-misinterpretated by flawed man/leader) IS reason and science. But it took a leap of faith to trust in 'religion' simply because our ancestors were not readily educated to fully comprehend the basic structures of science and reasoning. Even today, we are still far from complete comprehension in science, for there is almost new discoveries happening daily which changes known perceptions.
edit on 25-1-2012 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 06:41 AM
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reply to post by newsoul
 



Originally posted by newsoul
Fair enough. Homosexuality has not always been so widely excepted. Actually 50 years ago it was ridiculed and considered immoral.


So was interracial marriage. And slavery used to be accepted. Things change... As a country, we realize that we've been making mistakes.



Where do we draw the line?


"We" don't draw the line on morals. That is for each INDIVIDUAL to draw their own line as to what they want IN THEIR LIFE. They don't have the right to make that rule for everyone.

Comparing homosexuality to pedophilia, incest or bestiality is really just a fear-based justification to continue your prejudice against gays. Pedophilia involves a victim - a child... It's ridiculous to compare being gay to assault on a child... And frankly, if a brother and sister are of age and they want to have sex, NOTHING is going to stop them, certainly not a law.

The law has to protect children, but sharing love between consenting adults is something that shouldn't be under the arm of the law at all. The law cannot and should not extend into personal, consenting relationships between adults.



Can everyone be happy and do whatever they want and this still be considered a civilized society?


Yes. As long as the laws of the land are in place and enforced. As long as we obey the law and don't hurt other people, why SHOULDN'T we do whatever we want? That's a real question. What are you afraid people will do if they are free?



People don't mind their own business because if you put your business out there, it then becomes everybody else's business.


No it doesn't. Just because I exercise my right to free expression doesn't mean you then have a right to put your nose in my life and tell me how to live. If two guys are making out in public and 'putting their business out there", just walk on by, look away, think of something else. It's not your business and never becomes your business.

Let's say you disapprove of owning pets. You see someone with a dog... It's perfectly legal to own dogs, but your own personal morals tell you it's wrong. Do you have the right to insist that no one else own dogs, JUST so you feel comfortable? Can you think about what it really means to live in a free society?



I don't particularly care what you do in your bedroom or who you sleep with. But when it is constantly forced down my throat I get the dry heaves.


So, I assume you are straight... If you have an opposite sex partner, do you ever hold hands, kiss or show affection in public? Do people know that you're heterosexual? Does that mean you're constantly forcing your heterosexuality down people's throats?



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 06:45 AM
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Decline in morality is one of the many things we have in common with ancient rome(in its decline). But I agree with your post completely.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 07:00 AM
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reply to post by newsoul
 



Originally posted by newsoul
Love? Sexual deviance is not love.


Then stop using the phrase "sexual deviance" and say what you really mean. Stop hiding behind that code phrase and talk about the particular brand of sexual deviance that you're concerned about.

Sexual Deviance



A psychosexual disorder in which sexual gratification is obtained through highly unusual practices that are harmful or humiliating to others or socially repugnant, such as voyeurism or pedophilia.
...
sexual perversion or deviation. A condition in which the sexual instinct is expressed in ways that are socially prohibited or unacceptable or are biologically undesirable, such as the use of a nonhuman object for sexual arousal, sexual activity with another person that involves real or simulated suffering or humiliation, or sexual relations with a nonconsenting partner. Kinds of paraphilia include exhibitionism, pedophilia, transvestism, voyeurism, and zoophilia. paraphiliac, adj., n.


Today, homosexuality is NOT considered sexual deviance, so unless you want to brave up and talk without code, I'm can't address your concerns further.



I have not commented one time on how I feel about two adult persons of the same sex who are actually in love with each other in a committed relationship. People keep trying to put words in my mouth.


If you don't want people putting words in your mouth, say what you mean. Stop using that phrase as a catch-all for all for everything from child molestation to sex with dead people to two consenting adults in love. Be more specific. I'd have a lot more respect for you if you came out and admitted that you disapprove strongly of homosexuality and think it should be illegal, because your posts in this thread tell that story whether you state it clearly it or not.



I have been married for 18 years.


Don't push your sexuality down my throat!
(Just making a point)



I do not think it is anyone's business what I do in my bedroom, thus I do not shout it from the roof tops, I have never been on a reality tv show and I don't go to work telling my bedroom stories. If it is really no ones business than people should keep it to themselves.


If you have children, you're obviously having sex with someone of the opposite gender. You most certainly shouting it from the roof-tops. Every time you appear in public with your husband (if you are female) and family, you are shouting "I am a heterosexual! I have sex with this man in my bedroom! We produce children! We have sex"!

What's the difference when gay people appear in public?



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 07:54 AM
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Originally posted by Maslo
Do not forget to consider the notion that if absolute morality exist, it may not be YOUR morality. What if true absolute god-given morality includes extensive sexual freedom and (at least early-term) abortions? There is no guarantee other societes or people in the past were any closer to the true absolute morality than we are. Thus it is a meaningless argument.

I would expound upon your comment with A thought that is obvious yet pretty much ignored. That "Morality" is a concept with a universal 'mean' and as such dependent on locational cultures. With morality such, and being the 'norm/mean' it is a Learned mechanism to produce a cultural behavior or dependence or building structure of that culture embracing it for the good of that particular society. Not always, but as a general rule, it works this way. Even without religion or ethnicity, there are locational norms of behavior that are accepted and those that are abhorred.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 08:18 AM
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~1. You are driving, and come across a person whose car has broken down, let's say, a little old lady. She is standing outside the vehicle, and is clearly upset; worried about what she is going to do. You can tell she is poor.

Is it immoral not to stop and help her?


~2. An eleven year old child has been raped by her teenage cousin and is pregnant. The doctor said it is effecting her heart, and without having an abortion, she could die.

Is it immoral to force her to carry this child?

I'm interested in your responses. Thanks.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 08:28 AM
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reply to post by angeldoll
 


Not sure who you're posting to... but those are interesting questions and I will give my opinion...


Originally posted by angeldoll
~1. You are driving, and come across a person whose car has broken down, let's say, a little old lady. She is standing outside the vehicle, and is clearly upset; worried about what she is going to do. You can tell she is poor.

Is it immoral not to stop and help her?


As you have stated the situation, I would say yes. It is immoral not to stop and help someone in need.

I am a woman, and knowing that there are people out there who set traps for women and do bad things, if I were out driving alone and came across this woman, I would definitely CAUTIOUSLY stop and ask how I could help. At the very least, I could make a phone call for her and wait at a safe distance until help arrived. I would definitely consider it immoral to just drive by.



~2. An eleven year old child has been raped by her teenage cousin and is pregnant. The doctor said it is effecting her heart, and without having an abortion, she could die.

Is it immoral to force her to carry this child?


Absolutely. Just as if she fell into an enclosure in the zoo and a giant bear was squeezing the life out of her, it would be immoral to stand by and watch her die, instead of removing the threat to her life.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by beezzer
 



I think you all posted at the same time. So I will direct my response to beezzer. I have to agree with you on some levels, I do believe that the seperation of church and state did have a critical effect on our morals in general. I don't know if it is actually due to taking God out of school or simply because they took Good out of school. I remember in school we would have a phrase of the day " do unto others" kinds of things. We said the Pledge of Allegiance, we were taught to respect people regardless of their background or beliefs. I can tell you that children in school now, have very little time for moral lessons. WHY? Because the teachers are too busy trying to discipline children with no home life. The last thing a teacher wants to do today is offend someone.


Interesting. Your OP states Moral deficit as though this is something relatively new, but I can't agree with your examples backing this up. It's often said that prostitution is the oldest business, and if that's the case then I imagine abortion wasn't far behind.If you are against homosexuality, well that's your business, but that's just your personal feelings. It's hardly as if it's something new though.

As for leaders being the most corrupt, then where is this new? Whether in Religion or Government it's usually been there to some degree from the start.

I think the danger is to look at the past with rose tinted glasses. I can't think of anything you have mentioned (thus far, working through the thread) that is 'new'. Maybe more prevalent, maybe not but getting more exposure with the various media available now than in the past.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 09:41 AM
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Sure people are technically allowed to do some immoral things, however they're all disgusting and make me ill.

The only people that see morals as useless obstacles which get in the way of personal pleasures are Pagans.
edit on 25-1-2012 by L00kingGlass because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 09:56 AM
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There is a greater moral deficit out there, but is little addressed on this thread.

We can go round in circles over the sexual behaviours, both cause and effects, round and round. They are indeed moral issues that need to be settled, but the greater threat to mankind right now is GREED.

It is the cause of the chaos we see happening today. Long trusted bankers started playing games to bring in more profits through unconscionable games such as re-monetizing debts. Trusted politicians began accepting favors and bribes to promugalate lobbyists laws, to PROTECT the rich.

CEOs making tons of cash, lost their moral compass and debts of honor to society that had given them a headstart, dump the motherland and went to slavery biz overseas, selling cheap and worthless products at high prices. Executives, like monkeys - monkey see, monkey do - followed their ladders attitude to climb up the corporate ladders. Thousands of other examples out there, but cannot be listed here due to the lack of space.

The rich, hoard their wealth, while throwing a few pennies out to satisfy the public, or gamble on the casino called stock markets or invest in homes at the expense of the young whom see increases in rents, instead of providing capital for manufacturing, entreprenuerships, services industries.

Innocent students, corrupted by the worship of Mammon, saw that the rich was greatly rewarded, even after crisises whereby debts are socialized while profits are privitised, NOT only in US but the world too, switch their talents for progress of society instead to learning how to become gamblers and dealers, to hell with medical progress, engineering, science, research and developement, teaching, arts, etc.

Greed is ok, for it gives a person that ambition and drive, to seek for rewards and achievement. But the kind of greed we had seen for the last few decades is EXCESSIVE and unconcionable greed of the highest order, with no correction but compounding of continued errors, leading to the disparity of income , wealth and economy professions.

It is this clear and present moral deficit that needs to be addressed, and it begins now with you and me, to our families, relatives and friends around the world, to discuss, debate and find solutions to it, or if unchecked/unsolved, it will only lead to our doom, if not the next generations'.....



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 09:57 AM
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Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by AmericanPitBull
 


I am going to say this one more time. I said sexually deviant. I never, not one time, mentioned homosexuality. Is beastiality sexually deviant? What about incest? Pedophilia? Necrophilia? Promiscuity??? YOU apparently came to the conclusion that homosexuality is sexually deviant, because I never said that.


Oh come on now, are you suggesting that to society as a whole pedophilia is judged morally acceptable? Necrophilia?

Incest again is hardly a new thing and again I would debate at what level it's considered morally acceptable. Promiscuity? Again, not a new thing.

Can you see why as at least two of the things you have listed above are illegal in most societies (not sure where America stands on incest, but to deny it's been around an awful long time is a little sad) people thought you must have been referring to homosexuality?



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Fair enough. Homosexuality has not always been so widely excepted. Actually 50 years ago it was ridiculed and considered immoral. Today pedophlia is ridiculed and considered (by most) to be immoral. Incest is quite common in other countries, will that one day be "the norm"?


I'm sorry, but you are having a laugh now aren't you? One of the biggest stereotypes about certain parts of America is someone married to their cousin/sister etc. I'm not saying that factually that represents the norm but you seem to be suggesting it's common 'in other countries'?



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by nightbringr
 



You are correct an 8 year old child cannot consent, however it is common practice in other countries.



Could you name those countries where it is a) common practice and b) considered morally acceptable please?

And facts please - you made the statement.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by newsoul
 


If you dont want people to labor under the impression youre a redneck bigot then dont make a thread and specifically express concern that we are a society that props up "sexually deviant behavior". By the way, somebody else said it already - if not homosexuality then what deviant behavior are you talking about? You dont make any sense.

And by the way, I dont care if you think its cruel that I criticize you for your beliefs and/or what you say. Your feeling arent my concern.
edit on 25-1-2012 by theBigToe because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 10:35 AM
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Oh look now somebody went crying to a Mod about how "offensive" my post was. Its amazing on this site you can be a nutter bigot and your posts remain intact yet you cry someone offended your religious beliefs and the posts instantly removed. This site should be hosted in China. What a crock. Totally garbage you cant even write anything without it being censored. Dont remove peoples posts. Free speech. Who cares how offensive or how much trolling they do. Leave PEOPLES POSTS ALONE.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 10:49 AM
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reply to post by Afterthought
 


You're welcome.

Are segueways your specialty? You seem pretty good at 'em.

I've noticed too that the younger generation lacks respect. Many a thread has been started as to why, but it almost seems that if you want YOUR kids to have repect they have to be anti-social to their peers as well.

Keep up the good work.



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