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The Moral Deficit

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posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 



Apparently you just like to argue. I'm done beating the abortion dead horse. I've said all that I am going to about that issue. You know my stance and I know yours. It isn't going to change a thing on this thread. I won't change my perspective and neither will you.




posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by AmericanPitBull
 


I am going to say this one more time. I said sexually deviant. I never, not one time, mentioned homosexuality.

Is beastiality sexually deviant? What about incest? Pedophilia? Necrophilia? Promiscuity??? YOU apparently came to the conclusion that homosexuality is sexually deviant, because I never said that.


Which of those is legally sanctioned in the USA? Or considered socially acceptable? Is there some dramatic uptick in Pedophilia or Beastiality that would signal our society's sudden moral decline?

Could it be argued that compared to societies of our past that we have significantly morally advanced?

Just trying to suss out what you are getting at.
edit on 24-1-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by Salamandy
 


Thank you for answering the question that was posed in the op.


No problem! Love a good discussion.
One thing I have noticed is that woman tend to hate other sexually excessive woman and make efforts to ridicule them publicly. Like in high school, one thing a girl is gauranteed to say when engage in some type of heated argument is "oh I hate that slut!"
I never understood this. As a man, I have certainly become jealous of more attractive men than I who get to actually have the sex with woman I might find desirable. But I have never scorned a man for being able to get sex often. I mean why wouldn't he want to capitalize on his good looks/charm if that's his thing?

Now, if a person causes physical harm to another person, then it may become time to call out their morality.
edit on 24-1-2012 by Salamandy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:05 PM
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reply to post by newsoul
 


Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 

Apparently you just like to argue.


I do love a good debate. Is that OK? It's one of the reasons I come here.

I don't want you to change your perspective. I would just LOVE it if you would answer my questions, though... If you don't want to talk about abortion now, fine. Let's talk about sexual deviance.

You said this:


Originally posted by newsoul
We as a society, encourage sexually deviant behavior.


Then you got defensive when people thought you meant homosexuality. If you're not talking about gay people, then what kind of sexually deviant behavior do we encourage and how? How do we, as a society, encourage bestiality, incest, pedophilia and necrophilia?



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:08 PM
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I will say what I always say:
You keep your morals to yourself and I will keep my morals to myself. Who cares what you worship or don't. Who cares who you are intimate with or how. Who cares what you like to read. Who cares what you like to watch. Who. Cares. I certainly don't. If you don't knock on my door with your silly ideas of what is right and wrong I won't knock on yours. Get the point yet? What I am trying to say is leave me and everyone else alone unless they specifically invite you in.

(Directed at the universal you. Not at any one specific person)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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reply to post by newsoul
 


There has been a rapid decline in values and morals for a long time. I mean like when i was a kid, all the adults would say, " they would never do what kids do today". Now that i am an adult i find myself saying the same things about kids these's day's. When my parent's were kids they were spanked for being bad, so was i,but when now you can't punish your kids that way! The kids these's days have no respect. Not all of them, there are some good kids out there! We as a society keep pushing the moral envelope. Like during the early 90's beavis and butthead was pushing the envelope. Now we have family guy. People are always trying and liking thing's that get a reaction.The same thing can go for many aspects of society like politic's and such. Like i have read in some of the responses,
"who am i to judge what is moraly right or wrong?". But there is a clear view in society of wrong and right. Example:
stealing=wrong
murder and rape= wrong
helping a person that fell down=right
not standing by when someone is in danger=right
there is a deeper aspect to moral's, but i'm to lazy right now to get into it



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by AmericanPitBull
 


I am going to say this one more time. I said sexually deviant. I never, not one time, mentioned homosexuality. Is beastiality sexually deviant? What about incest? Pedophilia? Necrophilia? Promiscuity??? YOU apparently came to the conclusion that homosexuality is sexually deviant, because I never said that.


In the above list 2 stick out to me:
Beastiality and Promiscuity.
Beastiality: There are people out there who think eating eggs is morally wrong. Animals get tortured for food and science daily on an industrial scale. I think #ing them is as close to a victimless crime as you may get. If you care so much about them, stop eating them (and their unborn babies) (And stop using makeup and medicine)

Promiscuitiy:
Linear monogamy has been around for a while (see Henry the VIII and the church of england) Can you explain to me what's wrong with promiscuitiy?



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by AmericanPitBull
 


I am going to say this one more time. I said sexually deviant. I never, not one time, mentioned homosexuality. Is beastiality sexually deviant? What about incest? Pedophilia? Necrophilia? Promiscuity??? YOU apparently came to the conclusion that homosexuality is sexually deviant, because I never said that.


You did not need to. Since I have yet to see a pro-beastiality or pro-necrophilia movement but do see a highly judged gay rights movement, so please do not dissemble the argument and play avoidance games. It is plain that Morality is some thing you are defining for others and while I may have similar values on some issues I would not presume impose them on others as long as their values do no harm to anyone but themselves if so inclined.Such as abortion. That is between a woman and GOD( and likely the doctor willing to do the thing) I would not ever invoke such a thing but I refuse to JUDGE those who do, it is NOT MY PLACE. It is God's. And the life that is lost is in His hands if one truly has faith in a loving God. So much of the fear in this post is rooted in a lack of faith and in judgement of others. But we all stand alone before the maker in our time,eh?
Again I contend it is the imposing of individual moral absolutes that is at the root of our moral ills.When ones morality inflicts damage on another then it becomes a legal matter and no longer a moral one. Your morals are not mine and mine are not yours, but neither is superior except to our own lives.
And yes I am a fairly strict follower of Christ (Not xtian!) and am quite clear on his word as to how we treat others no matter their position, affliction, or morality.and it is not in judgement of their percieved failures by your standards.
If their is a moral issue in this country it is much more centered on greed, false idolatry and war than in the bedrooms or Dr's offices. That is how I see it any way.
APB
APB
edit on 24-1-2012 by AmericanPitBull because: lost thought



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by newsoul
 


A person has the right to do anything and everything he wants as long as it does not interfere with the lives and rights of others.

We as people are meant to be free. Why can i not have sex in my own home with whomever i want in any fashion i want? Why can we not watch porn if we choose, as long as those filmed are willing participants? Why can i not drink or smoke or take drugs as long as it doesnt interfere with others? It is MY body, MY life.

I do not want others morals pushed onto me. I realize there are exceptions, and they must be there fort the good of society. While someone may think they have the moral right to take the lives of others, they do not, because that right interferes with the right of another to live as they choose.

And of course you do realize that in some ways we are better than we were, morally speaking? Hell, it was only decades ago women were to be seen and no heard of, domestic abuse went unreported and unprosecuted. Blacks were openly discriminated against, and more.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Fair enough. Homosexuality has not always been so widely excepted. Actually 50 years ago it was ridiculed and considered immoral. Today pedophlia is ridiculed and considered (by most) to be immoral. Incest is quite common in other countries, will that one day be "the norm"? If we have a movement of people that want to spread the word about how they love their goats, should we except that? Where do we draw the line? Can everyone be happy and do whatever they want and this still be considered a civilized society? People don't mind their own business because if you put your business out there, it then becomes everybody else's business. I don't particularly care what you do in your bedroom or who you sleep with. But when it is constantly forced down my throat I get the dry heaves.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:24 PM
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reply to post by newsoul
 


Very interesting and heated thread.

OP all that you describe has gone on since the beginning of civilization. In fact much of it happened a whole lot more than it does now.

For example abortion was (with the exception of a few places) never illegal before the 17th century, most religions practiced it. However it was just never really safe, now its much safer.

I am very pro life and would never want someone to have an abortion. But I cannot force my views down someones throat, that is what brings about hate and violence. Like the abortion clinic bombings.

Our "moral compass's" have always been skewed, we are only human we are flawed and wounded. But I think (this is just my opinion it may or may not be true) you believe that humans are transcendental, that we can be better than what nature deems us capable being. I agree, but this is not a revelation that comes easy for some, and for others this revelation brings about new problems and philosophical pit falls that they have to traverse.

Yes killing is wrong, abusing children is wrong.

But is paying for a man or women to sleep with you for a night really so wrong for it to be punishable?

Is wearing a condom akin to murder?

Is a man wanting to marry his goat evil? (disturbed maybe)

There is no solution, only tolerance and reason. I personally would rather live in a world of freedom, than a dictators world of "moral unity".

We as a species have a long way to go, but honestly we are doing good, we could be doing better but hey I'll take good over bad any day.

ETA: This reminds me a lot of the heated debate about polygamy. The first ever real destruction of the 1st amendment was the illegalization of polygamy. But what is truly immoral about a man (or a women) being married to multiple partners?
edit on 24-1-2012 by Openeye because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by newsoul

1) We have laws that allow women to kill their unborn children.
2) We as a society, encourage sexually deviant behavior. Sexuality is exploited for monetary gain. The people in our country who are supposed to be held to a higher moral standard are quite possibly the biggest liars, cheaters and scammers around.

But the question begs answering: What happens to us when the moral fiber collapses completely?
When people are allowed to do whatever they want because they feel it is their right?



^ I shortented the question just to have less space taken in the reply so it would look cleaner.

1) There are 7 billion people, we are not special. There is have a better chance of hitting the lottery every drawing for Infinity than having the genetics to make someone exceptional. Every birth is a greater strain on a struggling ecosystem. 99.9% of all people's sole greatest contribution to the planet will be that they died. Don't believe me? When was the last time you were in traffic in London? Istanbul? NYC? LA?

2) This is NOTHING new. As a species, we love sex and it has always been used for gain. Why is it in America we expect our leaders to be eunuchs? Typically it has been those mousy quiet ones who are all pious about sex that have the greatest deviant lifestyles. And what is really deviant? If there are two consenting adults, that is normal and not deviant.

The true sign of decay for a civilization is when it changes from a sense of purpose to a sense of Nation, whereas that nation is greater than all and should be the judge of others. There are several countries that have an undue sense of nationalistic pride.

Derek



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 05:18 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

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posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by newsoul
Fair enough. Homosexuality has not always been so widely excepted. Actually 50 years ago it was ridiculed and considered immoral.

Then in that respect at least, has our society not improved? While i am not gay, i find it reprehensible that our society or government should ever tell two adult, consenting people that they should not love one another, reguardless of their color, religious leanings, sex or anything else for that matter. To me, YOU are morally wrong. If morals are a matter or majority rule, id suggest in this thread, you would be outvoted and expected to live by our morals.


Originally posted by newsoul
Today pedophlia is ridiculed and considered (by most) to be immoral.

As it should be. A 8 year old child cannot possibly consent to such actions.

Originally posted by newsoul
If we have a movement of people that want to spread the word about how they love their goats, should we except that?

No. A goat cannot consent either. Can you ask a goat if he likes being mounted by a human? Therefore beastiality = bad. Hell, as messed up as it sounds, if an animal actually COULD give consent, i would actually have to accept it as being ok. Messed up and wrong in my opinion, but hey, no one is being hurt and actually are enjoying it, who am i to stop it!


Originally posted by newsoul
I don't particularly care what you do in your bedroom or who you sleep with. But when it is constantly forced down my throat I get the dry heaves.

You sure you dont care who we sleep with? Thats not what i got from the OP you posted. Sounds an aweful lot like you want to police the nations bedrooms. Some place the government has NO business being.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 05:59 PM
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reply to post by newsoul
 


I really appreciate your post.
OpenEye answered it as I would have, only MUCH better. I can't even add to it.

I will answer the rest of your post tomorrow.
Dinner...
edit on 1/24/2012 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 06:23 PM
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Real morality should be based upon reason and science, not religion. They should be based on critical thinking and freedom, not suppression. Religions often see a lot of things as being "wrong" that aren't to other people, and people that are religious often accept these beliefs without even thinking about them.

However, critical thinking does reveal a bunch of morals that do exist, and these are things that are healthy or not healthy for the individual. For example, doing heavy drugs can interfere with a person's life and it would be better for them if they didn't do them.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Aaaannnndddd this is my point exactly. You believe that you should be allowed whatever freedoms that make you happy. And I never mentioned God or religion in my OP. I also do not understand where all of the aggression is coming from. I asked a question in regards to where do YOU see moral deficits in our society.






Are there any morals left in our society? We have laws that allow women to kill their unborn children. We as a society, encourage sexually deviant behavior. Sexuality is exploited for monetary gain. The people in our country who are supposed to be held to a higher moral standard are quite possibly the biggest liars, cheaters and scammers around.


all of the above or moral judgements

lets look at just the 1st 3 of the 2nd quote
from another point of view shall we?



1-Are there any morals left in our society?

2-We have laws that allow women to kill their unborn children.

3-We as a society, encourage sexually deviant behavior.


1-sure there are just not necessarily judeo-xtian morals

2- sez you, somebody else might say we have laws to prevent women from being breeding units for rapists, and douchebags who rape their own daughters.
and to protect women from freaks like santorum who shamelessly claims that rape is okay if pregnancy results from it as the pregnancy is a gift from the lord.

3- as you fail to give examples, i'll assume you're talking about homosexuals.

get a clue, homosexuality is genetic, the biblical death sentence is merely the attempt to breed it out of humanity.
and praying the gay away didn't make it's appearance until operant conditioning was codified by bf skinner



And I never mentioned God or religion in my OP.

you didn't have to, the stench of self-righteousness is quite over-powering even over the wifi


i declare this a troll thread
that's a moral judgement too


edit to add:



I do believe that the seperation of church and state did have a critical effect on our morals in general.

the most corrupt system of government ever created by humans is Theocracy.
in such a system you simply can NOT question the authorities with being judged immoral
pretty convenient huh?

and as your replying to beezer [great post, btw, beez] i'll also point out that hindu society has been going along just fine for millenia, when's the last time you heard of a hindu serial killer?
edit on 24-1-2012 by DerepentLEstranger because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by DarthMuerte
 


thats very moral-absolutist of you

but then again you are a Sith



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 06:52 PM
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Good is Evil




The true history of the tragedy called "morality."

From Freedomain Radio, the largest and most popular philosophy show in the world: www.freedomainradio.com...

This is the true history of what is commonly called "morality."

If you were the only thief in the world, imagine how easy your job would be! There would be no locks, no security systems, no passwords, no police. You could just take stuff, and people would probably just assume they lost it.

On the other hand, if everyone in the world was a thief, everyone would half starve. No one would create more than they consumed in the moment, because it would just be stolen.

So -- if you want to be a great thief -- the greatest, perhaps -- your best strategy would be to convince everyone else to stop stealing -- not because you think theft is wrong -- you are, after all, a thief -- but because you don't want the competition!

Thus the most brilliant thieves invent "property rights" to make theft easier and more profitable.

If everyone is a counterfeiter, money is worthless. If you want to be a great counterfeiter -- the greatest, perhaps -- your first step is to convince everyone else that counterfeiting is immoral, wrong, evil, and must be punished.

Then, you must convince everyone that your own counterfeiting is moral, good, virtuous, and must be rewarded.

This is what George Orwell called, "doublethink."

In order for us to accept such madness, the wheels of our minds must first be broken by indoctrination. By government schools.

Ethics, virtue, morality -- these were not invented and inflicted from any desire to spread goodness, but rather to disarm and enslave others. To disarm and enslave you.

The sequence is always the same -- invent a universal standard of good behavior, and then create an invisible exception for yourself and your friends, by calling it something else.

"THOU SHALT NOT STEAL!" -- Ok, all right, theft is wrong! Thus those in power have to call their theft "taxation."

"THOU SHALT NOT KILL!" -- Ok, all right, murder is wrong! Thus those in power have to call their murders "wars."

"NO KIDNAPPING!" -- Ok, all right, kidnapping is wrong! Thus those in power have to call their kidnappings "incarceration."

"VIOLENCE IS WRONG!" -- Ok, all right, using violence to get what you want is wrong! Thus those in power have to call their violence "spanking" or "laws."

Do you see the pattern? Create a universal moral rule, and then create an exception for yourself, and your friends.

It's very easy to test this theory. Walk-up to an average citizen and ask him if using violence to solve problems is good. He will say, "no." Point out that the State initiates force all the time in the pretense of solving problems. He will immediately start to defend the State.

It is inevitable. People defend moral rules, and then defend the most blatant violations of these same moral rules.

This how we are controlled. This is how we are propagandized. This is how money dies. This is how freedom dies.

This is how we die.

If someone gives you a moral rule, the first thing to do is to examine not the rule, but the exception. Who is not bound by that rule? Who gets to do the exact opposite? It will always be those in power -- that is why moral rules exist.

Any thinker who actually tries to apply universal moral rules universally is considered insane, bizarre, ridiculous -- because the purpose of universal morality is the exception, the violation.

Governments disarm citizens by denying them weapons, while retaining monstrous weapons in the hands of the state.

It is the same with "morality."

Open your mind. Open your eyes.

We can only avoid the traps we can see.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 07:03 PM
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reply to post by theBigToe
 


Your entire post made me laugh. Actually the webster's dictionary used to define homosexuality as sexual deviant behavior, that isn't something I made up. And maybe you should reread my post. I never said that I am for or against homosexuality, I simply stated that it used to be considered immoral. And it is people like you, that cause people like me, to worry about the future of our country for my children's sake. Even if I don't agree with someone's lifestyle or their choices, I do not hate them. You called me an ugly bigot. Is that really necessary. Do you feel like a bigger person for being a bully?



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