The Moral Deficit

reply to post by tothetenthpower
You're describing anarchy. An amoral environment.

Be patient. We're heading that way now.

reply to post by beezzer


No no..

Anarchy is chaos, not self governance as they would like you to believe it is.

What I am describing is libertarianism. The awy the world should have been and was intended to be after the fall of the monarches like 1100 years ago.

Magna Carta.

Self governance would solve all of our problems in a very short period of time. Self governance would come with self sustainability. Personal Freedoms should be the highest priority of any society.

There should be no hand that feeds you, you should feed yourself. Government should boil down to a few individuals keeping BASIC infrastructure in place with little to no power to change the system, as there's no need to.

They simply oversee essential services for the people. No law making, no money making. No nothing, other than serving the people.

~Tenth

reply to post by TiredofControlFreaks


For those who say that abortion is wrong or right, my only question is, then why in the first place get oneself into such a situation? WHY?

In this 21st century, we should have much more education than our cave dwelling ancestors to comprehend the consequences of our actions, so why go into such a situation in the first place?

We all came through the birth canal of a women. We all have mothers. Many of us do have sisters and even daughters. Have we lost respect for womanhood, that we are willing to put the women through such biological morality conumdrums that once the deed is done, the biological aspects of our body takes over natuaral control that only unnatural means can be used to stop this process?

The issue of abortion lays in the root of the problem. Why opt for the reproductive cycle if one has not the intention to follow through it.

reply to post by TiredofControlFreaks


Did I say something to upset you? I only gave you my personal opinion on abortion and then asked what you consider immoral. Why do you feel the need to attack me. Do you know what I do in my free time? Do you know what kind of life I lead? I really can not think of an excuse that would change my stance on abortion, women have means of controlling getting pregnant, if nothing else, don't have sex. It's really quite simple. It many be YOUR body, but it isn't your life that you are ending.

But I digress, I don't particularly appreciate being told to screw myself, and it really isn't very respectful. It speaks volumes about your character.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


So to you, murder and child abuse are wrong. But abortion is ok? Apparently we disagree on what point in the process life begins. It really isn't that hard to figure out. From the moment of conception the cells start to multiply and if left unhampered they will result in a baby. But that is neither here nor there, thank you for answering the original question, which was what this whole thread was about anyway. Stealing, lying, cheating, corruption. Ok so, how do you think these things should be dealt with? Is there a way to end these immoral behaviors or should we just let them be so. To each his own? And how do you think that will end for us if the corruption and cheating is left unchecked?

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
For those who say that abortion is wrong or right, my only question is, then why in the first place get oneself into such a situation? WHY?

Don't you ever make mistakes?
Haven't you EVER found yourself in a situation in life that you didn't intend to be in?
Ever get a divorce?
Ever have an accident and get your car repaired?
Ever say something you later regretted and had to go 'make it right'?

All of these situations happen daily in life and no one has ONE problem with us correcting the mistake and making it right. Except for pregnancy. For some reason, people think this is one mistake that shouldn't have a way to rectify it and should be able to be avoided 100% of the time.

It's just not logical. People make mistakes. We are imperfect. If there is a way to rectify a mistake, then we should be free to choose to do it.

We are all educated about how to drive a car, but people still are careless and make mistakes. Should we make automobiles illegal?

Why opt for the reproductive cycle if one has not the intention to follow through it.

Reproduction is just ONE of the reasons to have sex. For MANY reproduction is an unintended consequence.

Originally posted by newsoul
So to you, murder and child abuse are wrong. But abortion is ok?

Here's the crux of the problem. No, abortion is NOT OK for ME. If I were raped or a victim of incest, I would NOT have an abortion. For me, it's wrong. I believe life begins at conception.

Now, that's MY personal belief on abortion.

The issue is freedom. Other people do not share my beliefs. I have NO RIGHT to impose my morals on other people. If it's "wrong" to have an abortion and God is in heaven, then the people who have abortions will have to answer for it.

It's NOT my business to govern other people or to force them to behave according to MY opinions and beliefs.

Is there a way to end these immoral behaviors or should we just let them be so.

No. Those are MY opinions as to what is moral and not.

And how do you think that will end for us if the corruption and cheating is left unchecked?

I don't know. But I'm not going to live in fear of it or trying to make laws to control it. That's just a waste of time. I will do my part in living the best life I can. And we will see where things go from here.

reply to post by tothetenthpower
You're confusing governance with morality.

Something I've been trying to differentiate.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Don't you ever make mistakes?
Haven't you EVER found yourself in a situation in life that you didn't intend to be in?
Ever say something you later regretted and had to go 'make it right'?

Reproduction is just ONE of the reasons to have sex. For MANY reproduction is an unintended consequence.

I am only human and flawed, and yes, I do make mistakes, many of them, but ONE mistake that i will try my darnest is NEVER to put my finger beneath a burning flame. It is utter idiocy. As a child, I remember my mom telling me not to do it, but i was curious, didn't believe it and thus I did it and scream so hard I almost brought the whole house down.

Point is, there are known mistakes and unknown consequential mistakes. Getting pregnant is MOST CERTAINLY NOT an unknown consequential mistake. It is a fact of life when you perform the reproductive act, the chances are high that you will get pregnant. There is so much educative material out there, in books, print and even documentaries that shows its cause an effect. There is NO WAY one can claim any excuse for it.

So, my question still stands - WHY do it if one has no intention of completing the reproductive cycle? And thats the root of the problem we must address. Consensual sex or promiscuity, these are moral issues that a society have to decide on for it begins with the family nucleas.

But UNWANTED pregnancies NEEDS NO discussion, debates or laws, for it is within a human's control and free will.

reply to post by beezzer


Yup, they are different.

Problem is we live in system where morality is part of the governing structure; or the societal structure that we are "expected" to follow. Double think is the biggest problem we have today.

You can't combine morality and governance into a system for many people, it just won't work. Too many people have different ideas of what those two things mean, and how they should apply in a self sustained, self governed society.

Therefore, do away with morality all together in law and societal "acceptance" and focus on personal freedoms. The rest will follow suit.

~Tenth

Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

So to you, murder and child abuse are wrong. But abortion is ok? Apparently we disagree on what point in the process life begins. It really isn't that hard to figure out. From the moment of conception the cells start to multiply and if left unhampered they will result in a baby. But that is neither here nor there, thank you for answering the original question, which was what this whole thread was about anyway. Stealing, lying, cheating, corruption. Ok so, how do you think these things should be dealt with? Is there a way to end these immoral behaviors or should we just let them be so. To each his own? And how do you think that will end for us if the corruption and cheating is left unchecked?

Again, all these things, (corruption, cheating...) and even abortion will go on and on with or
without your consent.

My grandmother, had an abortion in the 20's, it destroyed her
ability to have children. This lead to the adoption of my mother... This adoption
lead to a change in geographic change for my mothers entire life, some 1,500
miles from the place where she "should have been" raised. In this displacement
my mother met my father, my SPECIFIC FATHER. Now if my grandmother
had not have had that abortion I would NOT be here, not a chance that my parents
would have met.

Now would that have been murdering me, preemptively, in exchange for a child
that would likely be dead already???

reply to post by DarthMuerte


One of the biggest problems with morality (and moral relativism) is that people rationalize what they know deep down, is terrible behaviour. So people have abortions because it is inconvenient - interferes with their studies, etc. and rationalize it by telling themselves it really isn't a baby they are killing. Just 'some flesh'. Or, it's okay to buy products (like an iphone or acer netbook) even when you KNOW they are made with slave labor, figuring your purchase has no consequence in the big scheme of things. People rationalize getting into debt over their heads, cheating on a spouse, spending less time raising their own kids...

The second is that moralists are often so busy concerned with the morals of others that they neglect their own. Hypocrisy is one of the worst traits in a person, and a lot of people project their own terrible vices onto others (I believe anti-porn crusaders are some of the biggest perverts out there - they're certainly obsessed enough with it). Sometimes the first people to berate the unemployed are those whose own job is assured because of who their daddy is or was. The very rich are usually as lazy and entitled as the very poor and just as dependent on the welfare state either for contracts for their businesses, bailouts to protect their assets, or even keeping the populace well-fed enough that they stay complacent about the order of things.

Morality starts with one's own behaviour. Live the way you think others should be living and lead by example.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by beezzer

 

Yup, they are different.

Problem is we live in system where morality is part of the governing structure; or the societal structure that we are "expected" to follow. Double think is the biggest problem we have today.

You can't combine morality and governance into a system for many people, it just won't work. Too many people have different ideas of what those two things mean, and how they should apply in a self sustained, self governed society.

Therefore, do away with morality all together in law and societal "acceptance" and focus on personal freedoms. The rest will follow suit.

~Tenth

If you'll read my first post I stated that governance (government) is trying to replace morality.

I say do away with a government that is trying to replace morality and return it to where it belongs.
In a spiritual setting.

I don't care which. Just look at morality and islam. (not that I agree with it) but it has been a stable element of their lives for centuries.

We need a return to a higher authority.

NOT government trying to become that higher authority.

Morality should be based upon:
Doing no injury to others or their property
Fulfilling contractual obligations made between willing parties.

That's it.
It's so ridiculously simple yet we seem to have endless arguments over what moral behavior is or is not.

The biggest mistake I see is that too many people equate religion with morality.
Religion is not a prerequisite for morality or ethical behavior.
That said, understanding the basis for why society needs morality is a concept that most religions indoctrinate the young in towards their own particular bias. The need for it is to have an underlying basis for human relations and interactions that works towards the good of society as a whole. The problem here is that often the individual is punished for a breach in a moral code while failing to take into account the circumstances of that individual, e.g - a woman is made pregnant due to being raped yet the moral code says abortion is wrong.

Some will respond "this is situation ethics!". Aren't they all?
THOU SHALT NOT KILL. #1 rule for Christians yet war is ok. War is killing, why is that alright? Because of circumstances and situations. Muslims also supposedly abide by these same 10 commandments.
I think it's fair to say that religions are no better at deciding what moral behavior is than the individual if we allow circumstances to change our definitions.

If the world is a mess it's only because people have become selfish and no longer care about the effects of their actions on others. So yes, you are correct that a decline in morality has created enormous problems. The big question is how do we make those control act within a moral framework when the acquisition of power has been made possible by the total rejection of morality in favor of self-interest?

reply to post by TiredofControlFreaks


There are waiting lists for people wanting to adopt infants. People wait for YEARS. Fork out tens of thousands of dollars, fly even to other countries. The most important phase of bonding occurs in the first six months of a child's life.
Pregancy is only a few months.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
I do make mistakes, many of them, but ONE mistake that i will try my darnest is NEVER to put my finger beneath a burning flame. It is utter idiocy. As a child, I remember my mom telling me not to do it, but i was curious, didn't believe it and thus I did it and scream so hard I almost brought the whole house down.

And since then, you have NEVER accidentally felt the heat of a flame? So, once you knew fire burned, you've never burned yourself since?

It is a fact of life when you perform the reproductive act, the chances are high that you will get pregnant.

The chances are 15-25%. BabyMed

WHY do it if one has no intention of completing the reproductive cycle?

Because sex is a natural urge and drive in human beings. It's a way of being close and intimate with someone you love. It's a bonding process and it feels good. You don't know this stuff?

Consensual sex or promiscuity, these are moral issues that a society have to decide on for it begins with the family nucleas.

Society doesn't get to decide. YOU don't get to decide on someone else's morals. Society needs to keep its nose out of people's private business AND families. My family is none of your business.

reply to post by beezzer


Yeah I agree, except the "higher" authority should be that of our rights as they were given to us, pure and simple.

I'm not willing to go to the religious/spiritual model unless that model is based on the sanctity of human life and the freedoms that being a member of the race of man provides.



~Tenth

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by beezzer

 

Yeah I agree, except the "higher" authority should be that of our rights as they were given to us, pure and simple.

I'm not willing to go to the religious/spiritual model unless that model is based on the sanctity of human life and the freedoms that being a member of the race of man provides.

~Tenth

Would those be. . . .

god given rights?

*cheesy grin*

reply to post by beezzer


Ah...such a tricky question eh?

Yes, they were God Given, but not that God...at least not as far as the law is concerned. It's just the way your rights were written, and can be used without the notion of religion.

I mean basically according to the law God is dead anyway, we own it all and nobody can take it away from us.

~Tenth

Mitt Romney pays 13.9% tax