Source of virgin myth in Christianity? Biblical Mistranslations

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posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by casenately
 


This is nonsense.. in the whole Region, the dominant culture was the Hellenistic, not Judaism.

The Apostels had greek names. The apostle Paul is not named after the english name Paul, but from the greek name "Pavlos - ΠΑΥΛΟΣ".

You're mixing up the your things there badly




posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by Hellas
 


no the apostles were JEWS. They had Jewish names. Dude read some more. Jewish names are actual words. not like alexander, but like Immanuel

אֵל (’El, meaning 'God') and עִמָּנוּ (ʻImmānū, meaning 'with us');

Simon s(i)-mon as a boy's name is pronounced SYE-mun. It is of Hebrew origin
is "to hear, to be heard
etc etc

to be fair some did have Greek names as far as we can tell today. BUT

The names of the Apostles are of Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew origins. The Hebrew, Aramaic and "Greek" named Apostles were:

Shim'on = Simon (Hebrew origin).

Y'hochanan = John (Hebrew origin).

Mattithyahu = Matthew (Hebrew origin).

Ya'aqov = James (Hebrew origin meaning Jacob).

Bar-Tôlmay = Bartholomew (Aramaic, which is related to Hebrew).

Judah = Jude / Saint Jude (not to be confused with Judas Iscariot, Hebrew origin).

Yehuda = Judas Iscariot (Hebrew origin, Betrayed Yeshua/Yehosua the Messiah).

Cephas / Kephas = Peter (Hebrew / Aramaic origin meaning "Rock").

Tau'ma = Thomas (Aramaic origin).

Andrew = Andrew (Greek origin. Is the brother of Cephas / Kephas).

Phillip = Phillip (Greek origin).

edit on 24-1-2012 by casenately because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:48 PM
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reply to post by casenately
 


Koine means common in greek! Koine greek is common greek.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by Hellas
 


yes but they didn't speak that at home and to eachother.They thought in their native language. Are we really arguing this.? They used it for a specific purpose. Do you go around stating the scientific names of species or just use layman's terms, same thing.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:52 PM
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There is a lot of stuff in the Christian religion that I refer to as religious theater.

You've got the virgin birth, Moses parting the waters of the red sea, Jesus dying for your sins etc.

I think that a lot of this stuff was put in the bible to attract congregations. Back in those days, it was much more impressive to have this religious theater then not.

However, I think that the new testament and the stories of Jesus are worth reading. Jesus was a radical of his times. He was teaching people to have a personal and direct relationship with God rather than depending upon a priest in a fancy robe to act as your intermediary.

If you strip of the religious theater aspects of Christianity, it still have many worthwhile aspects. The 10 commandments are the foundation for a good moral code.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by casenately
reply to post by Hellas
 


yes but they didn't speak that at home and to eachother.They thought in their native language. Are we really arguing this.? They used it for a specific purpose. Do you go around stating the scientific names of species or just use layman's terms, same thing.


I'm not arguing here, I actually really like our conversation I dont know about you.

Ok here's something for ya. Maybe you like maybe not. It's written by Joseph Jahuda. His book is called Hebrew is Greek

www.amazon.com...



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by randomtangentsrme
 


But a virgin would be miraculous,

n'est pas?



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by Wildbob77
 


I agree, but you should be careful when reading and actually read the source, not an interpretation of that source. You can do that for yourself. There is too much vested interest in making you believe one version over another, so you really need to LEARN THE SOURCE. If you are serious it should only enhance your over all experience.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:57 PM
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reply to post by Hellas
 


Agreed, this is how we learn. I am enjoying it as well. I am actually going to get in trouble with my wife again for staying late at work, not really working at all. LOL



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by casenately
reply to post by Hellas
 


Agreed, this is how we learn. I am enjoying it as well. I am actually going to get in trouble with my wife again for staying late at work, not really working at all. LOL


lol

yeah I gotta go to, it's past midnight here



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 05:10 PM
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reply to post by casenately
 


Revel in your Dis-belief, go ahead and pat each other on the back...while you still can.


Cred where cred is due, 2 Thessalonians 2
enduringword.com - David Guzik(Bible Commentaries)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 05:29 PM
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reply to post by alilonthecheekyside
 


I dont think the Jesus message was telling us to fear a thing. He was reassuring us that it's all good as long as you are good. Period. They were also mistaken by thinking Jesus was going to return in their lifetimes. They were all doom and gloom then and needed a wake up call.

Its appropriate you chose a verse that tries to instill peace and tranquility, yet because of this ONE guys interpretation (David Guzik), you see it as "tell them to watch out!"

Furthermore, it actually states not to listen to the doom and gloom people that act like they are part
of the church and say to you, like the apostles, etc. that the end is near. It is a verse dedicated to fear mongering and not to listen to it. LOL




2 Thessalonians 2

American Standard Version (ASV 1901)
to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;

King James Version (KJV 1769)
Thatº yeº beºº notº soonº shakenºº inº mind,º orº be troubled,ºº neitherº byº spirit,º norº byº word,º norº byº letterº asº fromº us,º asº thatº theº dayº of Christº is at hand.ºº

Original King James Bible (AV 1611)
Thatº yeeº beeºº notº sooneº shakenºº inº minde,º orº bee troubled,ºº neitherº byº spirit,º norº byº word,º norº byº letter,º asº fromº vs,º asº thatº theº dayº of Christº is at hand,ºº

John Etheridge Pe#ta-Aramaic NT (1849)
that you be not soon moved in your minds, nor perturbed, nor by word, nor by spirit, nor by letter, which (may be) as (if it were) from us, that, Behold, the day of our Lord cometh!

James Murdock Pe#ta-Aramaic NT (1852)
that ye be not soon agitated in your mind, nor be troubled, neither by word, nor by spirit, nor by letter, as coming from us, that lo, the day of our Lord is at hand.

Westcott & Hort Original Greek New Testament (1885/1901)
εἰς τὸ μὴ ταχέως σαλευθῆναι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ νοὸς μηδὲ θροεῖσθαι μήτε διὰ πνεύματος μήτε διὰ λόγου μήτε δι' ἐπιστολῆς ὡς δι' ἡμῶν, ὡς ὅτι ἐνέστηκεν ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ κυρίου.



qbible.com...


edit on 24-1-2012 by casenately because: fix, added the word tranquility and more



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 02:25 AM
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I don't take any lessons that come off of you-tube seriously, i do find it amusing what people will believe in as long as it supports their beliefs.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:52 PM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


I just want to say thank you for pointing out that thread, I have 2 more pages to read, since I am not skipping a single comment. It was very informative. It is a must read for any ATSer. What I found most revealing was the nature of Jesus as portrayed by Amadeus. His stance that Jesus was not just a radical but a seditionist was very thought provoking.

The "turn the other cheek" thing comes to mind. It was illegal to hit someone with the back of your hand, so after being struck to turn the other cheek would have them hit you with the back of the hand after a "legal" blow. Jesus was telling us to use the law against our enemies, not to be humble little masochists. Interesting.

The fact that Mathew was written as a proof of Jesus as the fulfillment of the Jewish messiah, and how it was written in a way to gain support from potential Jewish followers, out doing the prophet Elisha, was very interesting to say the least.

the genealogy of Jesus not adding up in Luke and Mathew, trying to again validate his Davidic line and thus his legitimacy as the messiah being in the line of David as the prophecy told, didn't know that. Nice.

Again thanks, good looking out.

and now I am off to finish the last 2 pages of this EPIC thread. awsome.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

edit on 25-1-2012 by casenately because: fix



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 03:53 AM
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reply to post by casenately
 




I dont think the Jesus message was telling us to fear a thing. He was reassuring us that it's all good as long as you are good. Period. They were also mistaken by thinking Jesus was going to return in their lifetimes. They were all doom and gloom then and needed a wake up call.

~"The Jesus Message?" If your heart is SET and CONTENT with obstinant mocking then you can be sure that you will be left... laughing... all by yourself.


~ Jesus did very much so, warn us... of the "real" dangers of yes...hell. He spoke of it quite often.

~ Try reading Scripture with the "sincere Intention" of Loving Jesus Himself. God willing if you desire Truth, then the understanding part will follow! "Laughing out loud and rolling on the floor laughing your ass off" only works for so long. The Thessalonians were not "all doom and gloom" as you put it...they were NEW Christians under divine tutelage.



Its appropriate you chose a verse that tries to instill peace and tranquility, yet because of this ONE guys interpretation (David Guzik), you see it as "tell them to watch out!"


~ It was my hope that a person would be "intrigued" enough to want to actually go to the Link. In the subsequent hopes it might Yes...lead to Bible Study. Especially considering how now-a-days many are so Glued to their monitors if you will.

~ IF you had actually read the "whole" thing in it's entirety, you would have read the part about "The great Delusion/Lie", AND MORE. Please do not take me for an uneducated boob, If you had the "only" drink of water, for miles around...would you not want to Share it with your Family?



It is a verse dedicated to fear mongering and not to listen to it.


~ Nothing in Scripture is dedicated to the mongering of Fear! If any part of your heart tells you this, then you are not reading it right. Yes there are very fearful aspects of it, but if you focus ONLY on that, then you will completely miss the beauty, truth and wisdom of it. It is no coincidence that The Holy Bible has been on the Bestseller's List for as long as it has.

~ God Bless you dear ATSer!

~ I Hope you get that laughing thing looked at.




edit on 26-1-2012 by alilonthecheekyside because: (no reason given)
edit on 26-1-2012 by alilonthecheekyside because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by JoshF
I don't take any lessons that come off of you-tube seriously, i do find it amusing what people will believe in as long as it supports their beliefs.


~~~Never, would I ever, defend such a ridiculous Venue such as youtube but clearly, it's just another way for people to communicate with one another, kinda like ATS. They both have flaws, because WE as people have flaws.

~~~I find it amusing what people will believe in, as long as it supports their DIS-beliefs!



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by alilonthecheekyside
 


I did go to the link, It was just your run of the mill, bible interpretation bordering on a fear based mentality that Jesus was trying to overwhelmingly make us Fear each other because "the devil" is in some of us, not the message.

That passage is warning against people usurping the message of the Christ to promote their own interpretation.
Kind of like that guy.



Nothing in Scripture is dedicated to the mongering of Fear!


Really, are we using the same bible with the Old testament included, or the entire section dedicated to ARMAGEDON, Book of Enoch, etc..well that is fear mongering IMO.

I just want to add that the potato famine of Ireland was caused by people like this guy making people think the end was nigh, making them collapse society by not working since "what's the point" we are going to die anyways. It is dangerous, and that man you told me to be intrigued by is insane.

I am not amused or laughing.

You tube is only as valid as the content you search for and its source, like the site you listed. My links are to an internationally accepted institute dedicated to bible study and the Hebrew language. People pay good money to get an education from the ANCIENT HEBREW RESEARCH CENTER. Sorry, the YouTube is crap argument is only valid if I posted a crap source.

edit on 26-1-2012 by casenately because: fix



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 05:14 PM
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reply to post by casenately
 




I did go to the link, It was just your run of the mill, bible interpretation bordering on a fear based mentality that Jesus was trying to overwhelmingly make us Fear each other because "the devil" is in some of us, not the message.

Clearly, you made no inquiries as to "who" David Guzik is, as you would know that he is well respected in his field. FYI, I actually use enduringword.com... it's still a thousand times better than that silly excuse of a link you provided...it looks like it was put together by a first year web-design student. Do you really use that site, or were you just looking for "some kind" of AMMO to throw at me? Anyway, it matters not. I walk away, unscathed.
I shall live again...to fight another day!!! Hahaha, just thought our conversation could use a little Levity.


~~~~~~~~~~If Scripture frightens you then why not just "Admit It"? That seems to be a much more gracious approach than coming up with 'Wiid & Fantastic" claims about whether Jesus' Mother was a Virgin or not. Can you not grasp the true nature of your very own thread? Of all the people, I have come across in this life, that have made similar "Accusations", this one is BY FAR the weakest!.

Did you not know that Bible error claims are NOT predominantly Atheistic but moreover...Islamic...well, c'est vrai.



Really, are we using the same bible with the Old testament included, or the entire section dedicated to ARMAGEDON, Book of Enoch, etc..well that is fear mongering IMO.

~I do recall "ALREADY" saying that, ""Yes there are very fearful aspects of it, but if you focus ONLY on that, then you will completely miss the Beauty, the Truth and the Wisdom of it."



I just want to add that the potato famine of Ireland was caused by people like this guy making people think the end was nigh, making them collapse society by not working since "what's the point" we are going to die anyways.

~So people like David Guzik caused The Great Potato Famine of Ireland eh? Oh, Brother, dear brother, it was caused by "Bacteria". And while we are at it...Ireland was under the grip of a corrupt rule of law that tends to go hand in hand with Caste based societies! You know the old story, "The Haves and The Have Nots"! Hence the uprisings.

Okay, aaanywaaayyys...I've got some Banana Bread in the oven.
Peace...until...we...meet...again.
God bless you in all that you do!

p.S. - I have absolutely no problem with The "ANCIENT HEBREW RESEARCH CENTER". All the power to yah!
P.S.2. - Must we reeeally continue to discuss youtube, it has become the playground of so much "dis-information".



posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by casenately

Hi Casenately –

You’re very welcome !!

(I’m always supportive of honest ‘investigative minds’ on ATS threads) –

Hopefully you have now finished reading the comments of AMADEUS on her ‘ATS Virgin Birth’ Mamzer Discussion – she had posted more info (in 2003/2004) on a wide variety of ATS religious discussions that ‘go against the grain’ of the ‘mindless Bible believing sheeple’ in the wild...

A good idea would be for any thinking person to do an ATS search on ‘AMADEUS’ to find her other discussions from say 2003/4– so they can piece together their own large library of ‘scholarly’ hard information – way above the ignorant (read: ‘un-informed’) rubbish that passes for ‘fact’ all too often allowed to be posted on ATS Conspiracies in Religions threads over the years.

To sum up AMADEUS’ points ref the Bastardy of ‘Iesous’ ATS thread – then, in sommo –

www.abovetopsecret.com...

l. The fake ‘midrashic’ (i.e. haggadic = legendary) 14-set genealogy of ‘Iesous’ in the 1st canonical Greek gospel ‘according to Matthew’ (whoever he was) skips over a number of Judaean kings (who reigned between c. 680 BCE and 621 BCE) in order to keep his fake sets of 14 going (D-V-D = i.e. 4 + 6 + 4 = the gemmatrial number for the Messiah based on the ‘number’ for the name ‘David’) –

Yet ‘Matthew’ adds FIVE whorish (sexually compromised) women to the set (odd for a genealogy for the Messiah) including Rachab the Harlot, Tamar (raped by her brother Yehudah), Ruth (who threw herself sexually at her late husband’s cousin Boaz, then lived (possibly as a lesbian?) with Naomi her mother in law) , then there’s the promiscuous Jebusite princess Bath-Shebiti (‘Bath-sheba’ lit. ‘daughter of the 7’ i.e. gods) who married to Uriah the Hittite commited Adultery with ‘David’ to produce the (illegitimate) clan chieftan Jedediah (i.e. ‘Sholomon’, lit. ‘peaceful’) – then Miryam of Galilee, the 5th in a long line of whores….or as AMADEUS asks (quoting C.K. Barrett) ‘what exactly was ‘Matthew’ trying to tell us about her character?’

2. The so-called ‘Magnificat’ poem of ‘Mary’ in the 3rd canonical council approved Greek gospel (‘according to Luke’ whoever he was) includes phrases like ‘blessed be YHWH, who has looked favourably upon the ‘gross-defilement’ of his handmaiden…’ –

Now if Miryam of Galilee was an old woman at the time, post menopausal, her ‘gross-defilement’ i.e. ‘sexual humiliation’ would naturally (for a middle eastern woman of the time) be barreness (=biological inability to produce ‘sons’)) – but since she was supposed to be young at the time, the ‘gross defilement ’ (in its CONTEXT) that ‘Luke’ mentions in his Greek (‘TAPEINWSIN’) can only mean RAPE (or possibly ‘seduction’ i.e. date-rape).

3. The weird bastardy (i.e. MAMZER) echoes in the 4th council approved Greek Canonical Gospel ‘according to John’ whoever he was) about ‘WE (in the Greek intensive) were NOT born of fornication:

John 8:41 “WE (in the Greek intensive) know who OUR father is !’

(the Greek intensive for WE in this pejorative sneer could be better rendered into modern English as something like ‘At least WE ourselves know who OUR OWN Father is…”) – which carries a kind of double-entendre underneath it.

At any rate the ‘sneer’ (C. K. Barrett) seems to indicate that there was some kind of bastardy insult hurling going on in the scene – although admittedly, these are not recorded historical literal word for word notes being taken here – and the pejorative language (being hurled at R. Yehoshua’s parentage may well be more general against all Galileans whom the Judaeans (at least in the 4th ‘gospel’ !) apparently equated with “Sammaritans” (i.e. half-breeds) e.g. John 9:34

‘You were steeped in defilement from the day of your sinful birth (i.e. bastardy), and do you dare to teach US? Then they threw him out of the hall….’

John 8:48 ‘Are we not absolutely right in labeling you a Samaritan, and one possessed of Belial?’

4. The rough Hebrew idea of a MAMZER (i.e. bastard or ‘one born of illicit union’) could mean a legitimate child who was conceived during menstruation, or one conceived out of wedlock, or could refer to two tribal blood lines illegally ‘mingling’ such as a member of the ‘priestly’ tribe of LEVI ‘sexually squeezing’ (‘to form one bone’ with) a member of e.g. the tribe of JUDAH – the birth legally timed within marriage or not…

So one does NOT really know what ‘kind’ of MAMZER is meant, although the Talmud mentions c. 400 CE that ‘he who must never be named’ (i.e. Yeshu) was conceived during the time of menstrual uncleanliness as being the reason why he was popularly known as a MAMZER (‘born of illicit union’ i.e. a bastard).

The large question of course is : Are all the MAMZER accusations in the gospels the REASON why the virgin birth stories were concocted



posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 02:50 PM
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I don't think so, from what I read ,in Qur'an Sura:66:12 states that Jesus was born when the spirit of God breathed upon Mary, whose body was chaste.





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