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Ancient Jewish scrolls found in north Afghanistan

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posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 03:22 PM
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Some more old documents from the 11th century have been found some time ago,
but have found their way to England.
The hoard is currently being kept by private antique dealers in London.

Things like poems, commercial records and judicial agreements are included.

Interesting how money and greed taint these things today.


KABUL | Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:51pm EST

(Reuters) - A cache of ancient Jewish scrolls from northern Afghanistan that has only recently come to light is creating a storm among scholars who say the landmark find could reveal an undiscovered side of medieval Jewry.

The 150 or so documents, dated from the 11th century, were found in Afghanistan's Samangan province and most likely smuggled out -- a sorry but common fate for the impoverished and war-torn country's antiquities.

Israeli emeritus professor Shaul Shaked, who has examined some of the poems, commercial records and judicial agreements that make up the treasure, said while the existence of ancient Afghan Jewry is known, their culture was still a mystery.


Reuters Source


Many of these records could stem from an ancient trading cartel.

The Radhanites

Ancient Trade Routes


These guys were around before Marco Polo !!

The Radhanites (also Radanites, Hebrew sing. רדהני Radhani, pl. רדהנים Radhanim; Arabic الرذنية ar-Raðaniyya) were medieval Jewish merchants. Whether the term, which is used by only a limited number of primary sources, refers to a specific guild, or a clan, or is a generic term for Jewish merchants in the trans-Eurasian trade network is unclear. Jewish merchants dominated trade between the Christian and Islamic worlds during the early Middle Ages (approx. 500–1000 AD). Many trade routes previously established under the Roman Empire continued to function during that period largely through their efforts. Their trade network covered much of Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia and parts of India and China.


Those guys got around didn't they !!


Academic Details are Welcome, I am Not an Expert !!




posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by xuenchen
 


Awesome find, there is so much history I'm unaware about.

I wonder if these findings fit or conflict with recorded history from that time?

Hopefully some experts stop by and shed some light on the situation.



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 03:33 PM
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Being a crypto-jew myself I've studied the paths. After the tribes of Isreal were scattered and many went to the Sepharad (Iberrian Pennisula) others also wandered as far as India. India has or had an entire culture of Jews. Many of the tribes went north unto Afghanistan, Iran and many other "stans" Many followed trade paths to Greece, Italy, and Turkey. The study of the Israelites and it's many diaspora is fascinating. Great article, thanks for sharing!


Jews in India
edit on 23-1-2012 by favouriteslave because: added link



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by xuenchen

These guys were around before Marco Polo !!



Judaism has been with us for 3,000 years. In contrast Islam has existed for less than half that time. That's why you find so many Muslim cities and buildings built directly on top of older Jewish settlements and buildings.

I'm far from an expert when it comes to history, but I do recall reading about this before. As I understood it after the fall of the Roman Empire many Jewish traders kept the former Roman trade routes operating and the infrastructure in place. It would make sense that the ties for trade would remain intact.

I have no problem with private ownership of historical documents where the law allows as long as they are made available for study. I'd think for anything other than confirming the age, all the scholars actually need is a good copy of the text. In the right private hands the originals are probably safer and better cared for anyway. When such documents end up in the hands of governments, museums or universities, to often they become victims of wars and such.



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 03:53 PM
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Originally posted by xuenchen
These guys were around before Marco Polo !!

The Radhanites (also Radanites, Hebrew sing. רדהני Radhani, pl. רדהנים Radhanim; Arabic الرذنية ar-Raðaniyya) were medieval Jewish merchants. Whether the term, which is used by only a limited number of primary sources, refers to a specific guild, or a clan, or is a generic term for Jewish merchants in the trans-Eurasian trade network is unclear. Jewish merchants dominated trade between the Christian and Islamic worlds during the early Middle Ages (approx. 500–1000 AD). Many trade routes previously established under the Roman Empire continued to function during that period largely through their efforts. Their trade network covered much of Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia and parts of India and China.


Those guys got around didn't they !!





This would be an incredible resource if it does shed more light on the Radhanites. These people were pretty much squeezed out of business in the 10th century by the emerging city states of Europe, a systematic persecution of Judiac business that pervaded right into the 21st century, and still in many ways continues. The meaning of Radhanite is they that 'know the way', and refers specifically to the fact that they perpetuated the trade routes of the fallen Roman Empire. Apart from one, Iranian source I think, there is very little information known about the Radhanites, so effective was their exclusion from international trade, especially Europe. Given the various diasporas of the Jews, it is likely that the Jews were able to utilise Hebrew as a means of standardising trade, in recent decades Jewish populations have been discovered in not only India but also in regions of China. Populations that had for several centuries evolved in isolation from other Jews, however it is likely that at one time the Radhanites would have used these Jewish settlements as trading posts. Following the demise to the Radhanite routes, and the Radhanites themselves, these groups were left in isolation, a point which can to some extent be measured by the 'doctrines' that they adhere to. Very interesting area of study that could definately benefit with more material. Excellent find

edit on 23-1-2012 by Biliverdin because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 03:54 PM
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Lets just hope these and many other documents don't get locked away in an underground bunker kept away from people who could use that knowledge to learn from the past and build a better future.

Where we could be today if every document was available on the internet boggles my mind. A travesty people actually cannot have access to certain documents as it goes against mainstream thinking.

Why doesn't the Vatican put everything they have on the net? What is there to hide?



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by Blaine91555
I have no problem with private ownership of historical documents where the law allows as long as they are made available for study. I'd think for anything other than confirming the age, all the scholars actually need is a good copy of the text. In the right private hands the originals are probably safer and better cared for anyway. When such documents end up in the hands of governments, museums or universities, to often they become victims of wars and such.


I think academics can be just as bad as well, they hold onto findings, and rather than present them and open the field for discussion, they squirrel them away until they can publish, terrified that someone else may take the credit. It is all very possessive, dont you think? And, much more importantly, it is downright counter-productive.



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 04:16 PM
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The Dead Sea Scrolls are a case in point...For years the catholic church hung onto them not allowing other people to examine or translate them....
This leads one to wonder why the hell they would let them out to the public after suh a long time,,,is it because they have censored them for undoctrinal info?
I grew up in the mormon church which considers the Roman Catholic church to be the great and glorious whore of all the earth....so to speak....
Yet i find the mormons secreteing genealogical records from wherever they can get them in a huge cave complex outside salt lake city .....
Ones as bad as the other...............churches hmmmmph
Look at the destruction of all the knowledge and beliefs of many many origonal inhabitants we have encountered....
Religion is not the preserver of history, neither are goverments.....
History is preserved by those to whom it matters...and no one else....
The rest of us couldnt care less...........



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by stirling
 


Well that and the fact that John Allegro went ahead and published in defiance of them. Once it was out, and although it destroyed Allegro's career, it was out and there was very little to do but let the rest go, the damage already having been done.



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 06:54 PM
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reply to post by Biliverdin
 


Some theories about the "Rads" say they were extremely advanced.

Might make sense since many trade routes were established thousands of years ago.

Other theories suggest that the ancient trade cartels actually may have established "governments" and "kingdoms" to make control easier, and to recruit "security" forces.

Strange how many trade groups had extended "privileges" in many countries along the routes and may have been immune to local laws.

Kinda sounds like they may have had control of nations, perhaps like corporations seem to have control of nations today.

Aside from that, I wonder what details are in these old documents and relics.

Stuff like inventory systems, warehousing and depots, transportation methods, etc.

I wonder how they anticipated quantities of goods to sell at a later time.

I wonder how they judged supply and demand.

They may have been more advanced than we think !



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by Biliverdin
reply to post by stirling
 


Well that and the fact that John Allegro went ahead and published in defiance of them. Once it was out, and although it destroyed Allegro's career, it was out and there was very little to do but let the rest go, the damage already having been done.


I would comment that his publication of 'The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross' did more damage to his career than his work and actions dealing with the DSS



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:09 AM
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Originally posted by Hanslune

Originally posted by Biliverdin
reply to post by stirling
 


Well that and the fact that John Allegro went ahead and published in defiance of them. Once it was out, and although it destroyed Allegro's career, it was out and there was very little to do but let the rest go, the damage already having been done.


I would comment that his publication of 'The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross' did more damage to his career than his work and actions dealing with the DSS


Oh yes, well of course it did. Have you read it? Incredible piece of research and there is absolutely no good reason why he should have been so marginalised because of it, I am yet to read a single valid critique of his work. His unpopularity due to his unwillingness to comply with the guidelines enforced on discussing the contents of the DSS severed him from his peers, however it is his work that has lead to the most objective appraisal of the evolution of the beliefs of the people that produced the DSS and the OT. It was his very honesty, and desire for open discussion that lead to him being 'black-balled', and that began with the DSS, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross merely compounded the issue. All of Allegro's works are worth reading, he was extremely good at what he did, and very few compare in terms of accessibility.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 04:26 AM
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Originally posted by xuenchen
reply to post by Biliverdin
 


Some theories about the "Rads" say they were extremely advanced.

Might make sense since many trade routes were established thousands of years ago.

Other theories suggest that the ancient trade cartels actually may have established "governments" and "kingdoms" to make control easier, and to recruit "security" forces.

Strange how many trade groups had extended "privileges" in many countries along the routes and may have been immune to local laws.

Kinda sounds like they may have had control of nations, perhaps like corporations seem to have control of nations today.

Aside from that, I wonder what details are in these old documents and relics.

Stuff like inventory systems, warehousing and depots, transportation methods, etc.

I wonder how they anticipated quantities of goods to sell at a later time.

I wonder how they judged supply and demand.

They may have been more advanced than we think !



The Radhanites must have had some involvement in trade prior to the fall of the Roman Empire, and can be assumed to have established networks based on the same trade routes used by the Romans, however, it is likely that, unlike the Romans, they had most likely penetrated into Northern Europe, and most likely, particularly in the Eastern European regions and river-roads, that it was the Radhanites that acted as intermediaries between those peoples and the Romans.

The spread of Hebrew would have allowed the standardisation of pricing and therefore credit could be used. From what I can gather, for most of their existence they were overland traders, and hence, it was the emergence of sea trade that enabled the southern European city states to usurp the Radhanites position, and most importantly, to take over the spice trade, which at that time was the most lucrative of all the imports. It wasnt until the 11th century that those groups began to successfully penetrate into Northern Europe.

As overland traders they would not have dealt in bulk, and would most likely have traded to order. They are reputed have traded slaves, and exotic women particularly. Gold, pearls, amber, resins and spices. By dealing small, they kept demand in excess of supply, and therefore the return was worthy of the endeavour involved. It would have been a risky business in some cases. It was sea trade that led to the necessity to warehouse and inevitably led to the industrialisation of international trade. For the most part, the Radhanites couldn't compete I suppose.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 06:55 PM
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reply to post by Blaine91555
 


Many of the trading combines/caravans of the era, and after, were bankrolled by Jewish traders.

This would be some fascinating reading, assuming for the moment that I could read Hebrew...I wonder what they say?



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 03:54 AM
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Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by Blaine91555
 


Many of the trading combines/caravans of the era, and after, were bankrolled by Jewish traders.



Which ones and which era are you referring to???? At that time, traders were 'bank-rolled' either by their clients, who if they were wealthy may have been Jewish, but very few traders at that time would have traded with coin, or even gold, that is more likely what they were bringing back. Very little trade was actually controlled by Jews as you are implying...unless you can demonstrate otherwise...but I can or have found no large scale evidence of anyone other than European Christians bank-rolling trade on a major scale, though the Sephardics did have a fair crack at trying, the laws that prevented them from doing so were often too stringent for the majority to succeed. It really, if you look closely at the history, is only in that period from the 4th to the 9th century that Jewish traders were able to operate independently and without persecution, and they were only able to do that because no-one else knew the way, hence the meaning of Radhanites, those who know the way. But if you can demonstrate that the trading combines and caravans were indeed 'bank-rolled' by Jewish traders I would be very interested in seeing that. Thanks.



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 09:04 AM
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reply to post by Biliverdin
 


I didn't mean to imply that Jewish traders controlled trade, that was not my intent. But controlling wouldn't necessarily entail coinage, would it? Control of certain products, or access to those products would suffice, I would think.

I don't believe that I've ever seen a particular name mentioned, now that I think on it. I know that individual merchants/traders/investors usually bankrolled each individual endeavor.

I may indeed be wrong about that. It wouldn't surprise me, my knowledge of this era, isn't encyclopedic. In fact, it's in spots, somewhat sketchy. If you've knowledge otherwise, please let me know. Exposing my ignorance, while comedic at times, usually isn't a whole lot of fun...
edit on 1/26/2012 by seagull because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by Biliverdin
 


I didn't mean to imply that Jewish traders controlled trade, that was not my intent. But controlling wouldn't necessarily entail coinage, would it? Control of certain products, or access to those products would suffice, I would think.

I don't believe that I've ever seen a particular name mentioned, now that I think on it. I know that individual merchants/traders/investors usually bankrolled each individual endeavor.


We can split hairs but it would be un-necessary and time consuming...in the period that we are discussing, 4th century to 11th, there was no large scale monetary trade, it was trade...bank-rolling a trade expedition would therefore mostly entail furnishing the trader with your finished goods to take with him to trade for whatever you both wanted...let's say gold for sake of argument. The trader takes all the physical risk, the producer the material risk.

The Radhanites controlled the trade simply by guarding the routes that they took and their contacts. Which given that the HRE approach was to launch a crusade, or several, and mass murder the uncooperative Northern Europeans traders, I should think that most would have preferred to remain under the 'control' of the Jews.



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 03:42 PM
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The map from the OP link shows The Radhanites' routes.

Who were the other trader groups ?

They could have been Jewish as well.

Ancient Trade Routes



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by xuenchen
The map from the OP link shows The Radhanites' routes.

Who were the other trader groups ?

They could have been Jewish as well.

Ancient Trade Routes



The point is that there weren't any other groups operating on an international scale other than the Radhanites. That is what the 'Dark Ages' meant, a break in the lines of communication due to the controllers of trade 'falling'. The Diaspora of the 4th century probably helped precipitate that trade dominance, but it was a dominance of a limited trade quantifiably.

After that, the Muslims controlled the finished glass trade, due to expertise and would only deal with Jews for obvious reasons, and the Jews most likely continued to dominate such things as the Amber routes, until those were taken by force in the European crusades...but most mass trade from the 9th century through to the 16th was centralised around the med ports and as we all know, the Jews were forbidden from participating in trade or from owning property or accruing capital of any kind...unless they converted to christianity.



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 01:34 AM
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Interesting history!

www.dangoor.com...



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