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Jesus, the members only Club, only members allowed

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posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 10:18 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Hi


The people being addressed in 1John already had their "membership card" (just using your own term here). In laymen terms, the people being addressed already had fellowship with the living Jesus and in fact, the people that were being addressed, were addressed as "friends." Completely understanding The Masters business entitles the believing servant to be called 'friend.'

John 15:15 - "I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you." Jesus

As we all know, there are many different types of love. Love of a pet, love of a parent or sibling, the love of a child, the love of our spouse and then there is the love of God.

Love is love but there are distinctions. Liken love to a tree. A tree has it's base trunk and roots, but it also has many branches that make up its whole. The love of God is the base of the tree and for this tree to thrive it must have living water and living light.

From the same book you quoted (1John) but not in chapter 4:

1John 1:6 - If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

You are basically telling people that everyone knows God if they know love. This is a true statement but you have to know God to know his love. If you do not KNOW you walk in darkness. If a person makes this claim that they KNOW God, they should be able to back it up and tell you how they know him and they WILL be able to tell you their Master's business.

If not, here is where the danger lies:

Matthew 7:21-23 - Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them PLAINLY, 'I never KNEW you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

If God's business has been revealed to you, then you have walked the walk and are capable of talking the talk.

Would you please explain the fruit of your revelation about this love? You can start by telling everyone:

How do you know God?

How did Jesus reveal him to you?

And please tell everyone how the fruit is produced; how did God come to live inside you?

I want to see if you really know your master's business. Thanks




posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
reply to post by sacgamer25
 


You are basically telling people that everyone knows God if they know love. This is a true statement but you have to know God to know his love. If you do not KNOW you walk in darkness. If a person makes this claim that they KNOW God, they should be able to back it up and tell you how they know him and they WILL be able to tell you their Master's business.

If not, here is where the danger lies:

Matthew 7:21-23 - Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them PLAINLY, 'I never KNEW you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

If God's business has been revealed to you, then you have walked the walk and are capable of talking the talk.

Would you please explain the fruit of your revelation about this love? You can start by telling everyone:

How do you know God?

How did Jesus reveal him to you?

And please tell everyone how the fruit is produced; how did God come to live inside you?

I want to see if you really know your master's business. Thanks




You are correct you must know God to have God's love. But you do not need to know God for him to love you, his love is a gift and the gift is the son, Jesus, given freely to all, so that no one can boast.

Anyone who continues to pass judgment on others does not know God's love.
Anyone who hates another even an enemy does not know God's love.
Anyone who believes that God's Grace is only for Christians does not know God's love.
Anyone who believes who doesn’t understand that God’s promise was for the Gentiles too, EVERYONE who is not a jew, not just those who call themselves Christians does not know God’s love.
Anyone who teaches that Christians are saved and the rest are going to hell does not know God’s love.
Anyone who can’t see that a man like Gandhi knew God’s love does not know God’s love.
Anyone who can’t see that the good Samaritan, regardless of his religion knows God’s love doesn’t know God’s love.

With that being said it is possible for one to understand God’s love for them, without understanding God’s love for this world. I believe that many good people fall into this catagory.

I know God because I was born with the spirit of Christ in me. I know this is a true statement by myself and my daughter. A concept that would be impossible for her to accept on a rational level she has understood since she was at least 5 years old. God is in her. She understood at 5 that the love inside her was God, and could rationalize that the love inside her wanted her to do good, and that sometimes she did not listen to the love inside her. So at 5 she knew what Paul was talking about in Roman’s Chapter 6.

If a 5 year old can fully understand the message in Roman’s Chapter 6 she must have been born with this knowledge. That should be enough proof in itself.

How do I know God because I have truly been born again, this is not something that I say with pride but out of a need to be honest. I am humbled my my lord's Grace. There are many who claim to be born again but by their fruit they prove that they do not know God’s love.

The Parables of the Mustard Seed - Mathew 13:31-32

31 He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”

The kingdom of heaven is the spirit of Christ, the seed planted in all who know love from birth. The seed is the word written on our hearts. A seed does not grow on its own. The seed grows in you by faith, which is faith by works.

So exactly what did I do? It started 6 years ago when I bought the bible on CD to listen to while I was working; I drive about 2 hours a day for work. For the past six years I have been studying the bible, and debunking every so called contradiction pointed out by non believers and scientist. What I came to understand is that every word in the bible is the truth. I consider myself a young earth creationist and take the bible as literal, except where a non literal interpretation is obvious.

I prayed each day that God would fill me with the spirit of knowledge, guide me in his will, and show me the word. Since childhood I have known that the bible is the word of God, everything Jesus says makes since. Also since childhood I have rejected part of what I heard at church. Because somehow I could always see that they were contradicting the words of Jesus.

The same church that will have children sing Jesus loves me this I know because the bible tells me so, also told me that only Christians go to heaven. Basically saying that Jesus only loves Christians. Jesus had more love for sinners than he did for the righteous. Because it was the sinners that are brought to repentance, for the righteous don’t even realize how unrighteous they truly are.



John 8:34, 36 Whosoever 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

I John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.


I posted these verses because I wanted to get back to being born again. Born again is truly what I imagine for each person when their physical body passes away only not quite as freeing. The experience of being born again is a separation of physical body and spiritual body that is impossible to put into words. What can be explained is the fruit of the experience.

When this happened almost a year ago now, it was as if God’s word became alive and the concepts of God where bombarding me so fast that I could not grasp the wisdom that was being given me. I had to pray that God help me with the interpretation of the message he was trying to give me. It was over the next couple of months that the bible, with the help of the Holy Spirit, started to teach me all things, and the love of God became clear to me.

I posted the above verses because they are a significant test of the fruit of being born again. Anyone who claims they are born again and tells you that those verses and much of Hebrews is not to be taken literally does not know the wisdom of God. You see I no longer have the desire to sin. All of the desires of my flesh seem to have almost overnight disappeared. The reason it falls one step short of actual physical death is this; I still know sin is in me, because my flesh is sin. It is now something that I no longer find myself bound by, because God has given me the power necessary to overcome the flesh, so I am no longer a slave to it.

I have given nearly everything that I own to my ex wife, my ex before being born again, and my mother. Somehow what they needed far surpassed what I needed. I don’t remember buying anything for myself for the past year, as somehow I just don’t feel the need for material possessions. I do still spoil my kids, but I believe I love them in a similar way to how God loves me.

I am addicted to the word of God, every night my children and I listen to the bible before we go to bed. I talk about God to everyone I know outside of work, and sometimes even at work. I feel that I have a purpose to spread the word of God to the world. It is as if God has directed me to ATS to help me become more prepared to spread the Good News to the world. I have not yet been told how I am to spread the Good News but God knows that I will do whatever he asks of me.

I love my enemy because in my mind I see everyone as a brother. Except of course those who prove they do not have love in them, but God will protect me from them, until it is time for me to be confronted by them. And I will love those that do not know love because maybe through my love they too will be able to learn God’s love.

In simple terms faith, which is faith by works. I knocked on the door and he let me in, because he wanted me to know his Grace. I have been given the knowledge of Grace in its entirety, woe to me if I continue to sin because there is no sacrifice left.

I am curious what do you think is required of one to know the masters business?
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posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 



Hi there…

The interpretations you have presented are fairly new to me, to say the least.


So I’m just going to be open and give you my honest opinions and first reactions to it.



Originally posted by sacgamer25
Yes you are absolutly right, being born again is an extremely spiritual experience. If you have had this experience you know, and it will humble you. Because you realize that you have just recieved a gift that you could never possibly deserve, and it was only by faith and God's grace that you can have this experience.




Originally posted by sacgamer25
I will show you why I believe that the son is truly the gift of love that all are born with, and why I believe that baptism of the Holy Spirit is a seperate occasion, that not all who believe that Jesus is the son have experienced.


Well, I definitely agree and know, that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate part of believing in Jesus. And that those who believe just by faith alone can receive it at any time, along their walk with God.

I will never forget the day that I first received it; after a long and difficult search, lasting over 3 years. And considering that I wasn’t even brought up a Christian, made it a much more difficult journey, but it was worth it in the end.




Originally posted by sacgamer25

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Romans 2:14-15 14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that the GENTILES ARE FELLOW HEIRS, MEMBERS OF THE SAME BODY, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Colossians 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.





Originally posted by sacgamer25
The Gentiles proved the law, or the word was written on their hearts, since they had the word they had the spirit of Christ. Because Jesus is the word made flesh. You can also see clearly that the Gentiles are fellow heirs. Gentiles refers to EVERYONE WHO IS NOT OF JEWISH DECENT. This means that we are all part of the same body, weather we acknowledge it or not.



Well, I’m responding fairly quickly to what you are suggesting and I guess I would really have to look further, into the context of those verses you quoted above.

But my first reaction is that those verses are talking about Gentiles who already believe in Jesus! They are being addressed as fellow believers in Christ. What’s being discussed, is whether believers who are non-Jewish, are free from the Judaic Law, now that they’ve come to believe in Jesus. In other words, it’s a discussion about believers and the second covenant.




Originally posted by sacgamer25
Colossians 1 24:27 24 26 This message was kept secret for centuries and generations past, but now it has been revealed to God’s people. 27 For God wanted them to know that the riches and glory of Christ are for you Gentiles, too. And this is the secret: Christ lives in you. This gives you assurance of sharing his glory.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE AGES BEGAN




Originally posted by sacgamer25
This secret was kept for centuries, since the beginning of man I assume. CHRIST LIVES IN YOU.


Again, the verse Colossians 1 24:27 24 26 is about believers who have come to believe in Christ, and then come to have Christ living in them, by the receiving the Holy Spirit.

The “he gave us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE AGES BEGAN’ part in 2 Timothy 1:9, is about Christ’s pre-existence, in the spirit, before creation.

Continued…



posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 05:06 PM
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Continued…



Originally posted by sacgamer25
Galatians 1:15-1615 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being.


This is Saul who was later called Paul the writer of much of the New Testament saying that God revealed to him something that had been there since he was in his mother’s womb. HIS SON IN ME, realize this meant that Paul just realized that he had been persecuting not strangers following the way but his true brothers, even watching them be stoned to death. Not hard to see why he preached with such Zeal for those who are forgiven much love much.



Well, first of all, the part where Paul talks about being set apart from his mother’s womb etc…I think he means he has been chosen a. of time, to receive Gods grace.

And the “HIS SON IN ME” part, could also mean, not that Christ was revealed in him, but that Christ made himself known to his (Paul’s) own spirit. It all depends on how you view the words in the text, because when you receive the Holy Spirit, the son is revealed to/in you.

So if the Spirit came into you, it would be revealed in you. But if Christ is in everyone, then the same wording would be used i.e. “Christ was revealed in you”. Hope that makes sense, but anyway I’m more inclined to go with the former interpretation.

I also don’t think Paul could have done everything he did just on faith alone, and we know that he received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost and perhaps even before that. So it’s hard to separate the possibility that what Paul is describing above, is somehow different from receiving of the Holy Spirit.





Originally posted by sacgamer25
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.



Jesus has COME IN THE FLESH. Demons and evil spirits can acknowledge that Jesus came in the flesh as a man walking the earth, quite honestly 2000 years ago when this was written I don’t imagine this was even in question. So this must mean that Jesus has come in YOUR FLESH, something the evil spirit cannot acknowledge, because it is not so. I believe that not everyone will call the guiding spirit in them Jesus, but I do believe that all good people can acknowledge that something in them is guiding them to be generous and loving; even if they admit they don't listen to it like they should.


Well, we know that God has written the Laws on all of our hearts but I’m still not convinced that that shows that unbelievers have “Christ in them.” Because the verses you are showing, are about believers who have either already received the Holy Spirit, or believe by faith alone.




Originally posted by sacgamer25
Luke 17:21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."


The kingdom of God is within you, you are the temple.




But how does the “kingdom of God is within you” = “Christ is in you?”

Even believers in Jesus at that time, didn’t understand what Jesus meant when he said, “the kingdom of God is within you.”

Continued…



posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 05:07 PM
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Continued…



Originally posted by sacgamer25
So the question is who has Jesus in them? The church teaches that one must say they have the son in order to receive Christ in them. But this is not true. Here is how you know who has Christ in them.


1 John 4:7-15 7 Dear friends let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

***************These are 2 separate concepts that the church has merged into one*****************

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.




The top part is about people being created by God with the Laws written on their hearts; this is why people have love in them to start with. The reason they were written in, is because God also gave us freewill. There’s also an added context to it, because any one reading the above, will be aware of the Son mentioned in those verses. So again, it’s aimed at people who are already aware of the Son, and are believers in him.


The bottom part is clearly referring to believers who have received the Holy Spirit.





Originally posted by sacgamer25
In the top part of the passage it is being explained who has the son in them. It is clear by this passage that EVERYONE WHO LOVES IS BORN OF GOD AND KNOWS GOD, because GOD IS LOVE. So if you love you prove the son lives in you. Because the son is the gift of love God has given us.



See my comment above…





Originally posted by sacgamer25
The second part of the message says that you must acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, Anyone who acknowledges this, God lives in them and THEY IN GOD.



Yes, this I agree with…It’s about receiving the Holy Spirit, after you acknowledge the Son.




Originally posted by sacgamer25
This is 2 separate messages love proves that the son lives in you, acknowledging it proves that you live in him. You can’t live in him if you don’t acknowledge that the son lives in you. But this does not mean that the son does not live in you.


This is really my contention with your interpretations, because love only proves, that the laws are already written on our hearts.
And as far as I’m aware, Christ only lives in you, after you have received the Holy Spirit.




Originally posted by sacgamer25
1 John 4:18 there is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

When you realize that all are born with the spirit of Christ, than you are teaching a message of true love and Grace. We were born loved and forgiven, all of us. Most Christians actually believe that only people who acknowledge Jesus as the son are truly loved and forgiven by God. This is ridiculous causing self rightousness and judgement, God loves us all, and there are many loving people that do not acknowledge Christ before they die. Since they were born with the word, the son, they indeed can and will still be judged fairly.

What Christians are called to do is teach the good news of Christ in you. It is important that all hear this message, because I don’t believe that one can receive the gift of baptism of the Holy Spirit or any of the accompanying gifts without acknowledging Christ, and following him. This does not mean they will not be saved at judgment but it does mean that they have not been made sure of their salvation before the physical body passes away.




Although I don’t go along with your interpretations, where I do agree with you, is that believers should focus more on bringing people to Christ without any condemnation. The bible teaches us not to judge anyone, and promoting fear instead of love, is not what God commands us to do.


- JC



posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 06:21 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


I understand what you are saying and why you believe what you do, but there are three gifts. If there were only 2 why would the bible mention 3? Jesus is the hardest one to understand I admit but let me say it this way without more scripture.

The gift of the father: mortality.
You see the knowledge of Good and Evil came with a punishment but also with a gift. It is because of our mortality that we are driven by our morality.

The Gift of the Son: quite simply love.
You see when Jesus died on the cross he did so for all of mankind just as the bible says. He considered us all brothers. His gift was not only for the Jews but for the gentiles. The bible says that the Day of Judgment will not be good for those that did not accept the message. It does not say that they would be cast into the lake of fire the second death. The bible says God punishes those he loves and calls children. So any punishment we face in this life as horrible as it may be is done is out of love. Our physical bodies may not agree but our spiritual bodies most certainly will have learned.

What you believe is that someone has to first accept Christ to know the love of God. Jesus is the word of God and the word is love. So everyone that knows love must know God. They must have been given the gift of love. Jesus was the promise of love, Grace and Salvation. He is the gift of love. He is the word because he is the word that became flesh.

Jesus was the word that became flesh. God loves all of his creation. He loved us all equal so he gave us all the gift of the word. The word the son and Jesus are all terms for the same thing.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit: A rebirth into life, the reason why Jesus said some of you will not taste death. Only someone who has been born again can know that they will not taste death. Because we have truly been freed from our morality.

If what you say is true that baptism of the Holy Spirit is the same as receiving the spirit of Christ, how can these things be true? Paul was born with the Spirit of Christ like I showed you. And what does the secret kept for generations past, Christ in you, mean? You see both of these verses show you that the spirit of Christ was in men before the baptism of the Holy Spirit was even part of the covenant with man.

Man did not even receive baptism of the Holy Spirit until after Jesus ascended into heaven, proving that it was indeed only part of the new covenant. So the bible tells you that before Jesus was born a man, Christ was in them. Meaning they had already been given 2 gifts. Mortality from the father and love from the son. It was not until Jesus became the perfect sacrifice that Christ could baptize you himself with the Holy Spirit.

Which one of these sayings is good news.

God is love, he has shown you his love through his son that lives in you. Trust that Jesus is the son and that you are the temple that he dwells in repent and you will be baptized by the Holy Spirit.

God is love, hear is the message of his son believe in him and you will be saved. Refuse to believe and you are in danger of hell.

There is simply no loving way to tell someone that they will go to hell if they don’t believe the bible, so this cannot be the good news. Even if you don't say it but believe it in your heart this also cannot be the Good News.

2000 years ago why would anyone refuse the message, Christ in you? Today many will refuse it not because of the bible, but the hate that those who call themselves Christians have spread through the world.



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edit on 29-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 11:03 PM
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dreply to post by sacgamer25
 


"I am curious what do you think is required of one to know the masters business?"

Well, first let me say, I really enjoyed your personal testimony. It helped me to better understand the things you believe and why you believe. I guess, I'm not quite grasping why you feel it's necessary to promote that there is no need to beleive in the bible because all are loved by God in the first place. When we die, we will all go into the light and experience the love of God, but God sent his Son, so that we could experience him and that love in the here and now. God intends for everyone to have a certain quality of life, known as eternal life. I am not speaking of everlasting life, which is a reserved term for the hereafter, but a perpetual flowing of the Holy Spirit within us. It's not fair to the unbeliever who idly goes through life not knowing, that so much more is intended for them, then they go into the light, feeling a certain nakedness and shame, when we who know could have done so much more in guiding their feet to the true path. What did Jesus say? If we don't gather, we scatter.

I don't believe in coincedences, so I feel you are here on these boards for a reason. It may be that your testimony helps many people or it may be that you touch the life of one person. I personally found it very moving when you spoke of your young daughter, and the way you teach and share knowledge you have gained with her. Daughters are precious. Mine during her physical life was the absolute most delicate thing, I have ever known. God outdid himself when he made little girls! Before he took her, he even showed me how it would all happen. What tribulation I have went through and continue to go through because I miss her dearly. Always being tested and refined, totally at the mercy of the potter. He has since shown me where she is and I take comfort in knowing she is with him in the New Jerusalem. Jesus is the very spirit of prophecy but a person must awaken to the truth, that he lives inside us, through the power of resurrection.

According to Paul, prophecy is the highest gift one can receive and the one that all should strive for. I didn't tell my story to boast but to gently show that the gift is quite a ways down the narrow path..

To answer your question, 'what is required of one to know their master's business?'

To get from point A to point B one has to repent. Repenting opens the door. Actually, I should say earnestly repenting opens the door. What does it open the door to? The Master's business and the way he operates in the spiritual. After baptism and repenting comes the oil of gladness. I believe the Catholics call this chrismation and do it right after being sprinkled. After experiencing it, I went back and studied it from different points of view, including the point of view from those who were called gnostics. They called it the chrism and whereas the Catholics put so much emphasis on the eucharist, the gnostics believed if a person received the chrism you had already opened the door and were to receive of all the mysteries. I call it what the Lord called it; oil of joy or oil of gladness.

Jesus promises the bright morning star. The name Esther means morning star. Esther from the OT was treated with oils and perfumes for a whole year, to prepare herself to be in the presence of the King. Next on the narrow path is the hidden manna. Jesus says "I will give you" hidden manna. What churches do with communion is in remembrance, but the Lord's arm isn't too short to save. He has a mighty right arm and can and will reach out and feed you himself.

These are all just examples of the Master's business on the narrow path. Everything is contained within the bible, including all the accompanying miraculous signs for conformation - that's why the bible is Holy and that is why people need to believe in it and study it for themselves. It is a spiritual text preparing and explaining things that can and will take place in this physical realm.

We may not have a members only club but God himself calls us a peculiar people. I don't know the correct way to classify someone who knows things others don't without someone else being offended. Maybe Paul is right and it's a matter of predestination. It really doesn't concern me all that much. The spiritual teachings of Jesus compare to nothing else. Most everything he did in the physical was done to teach us how it is done in the spiritual.

One day God will pour his spirit out on all flesh, not just a person here and a person there but on everyone and there are going to be a whole lot of freaked out people not understanding what is happening to them. It is my opinion that people make the effort to know God and read his word and learn how he has progressively revealed himself through history.

Wonderful things await those with a bit of faith.
edit on 29-1-2012 by Myrtales Instinct because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 12:16 AM
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I just want to add something I feel is important, since I read some of the writings between you and Joe Croft.

The Holy Spirit baptism is a process.

Your body is a temple and before Jesus can live inside you - you MUST be cleansed. This is why John the Baptist said the baptism Jesus gives is of FIRE and spirit. The baptism he (John) gave only washes the outside of you, whereas the one Jesus gives cleanses the inside.

This is why Jesus washed his disciples feet. He told them 'if you have had a bath (water baptism) all that you need is for you feet to be washed. I must cleanse you or you have no part with me. You do not understand what I am doing now, but you will understand later.'

Jesus is the word of God. He is the bread that came down from heaven. He is the hidden manna. He is very one who kindles the fire of this baptism. Then on a certain day at a certain time, after a few months has passed you experience the love of God. One word sums it all up; ecstasy!

It is the love of God, that produces the Son inside us!

The Son of Man!



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 12:22 AM
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reply to post by Myrtales Instinct
 



This is why Jesus washed his disciples feet. He told them 'if you have had a bath (water baptism) all that you need is for you feet to be washed. I must cleanse you or you have no part with me. You do not understand what I am doing now, but you will understand later.'


What does him washing his disciples feet have to do with baptism?




posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 12:40 AM
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reply to post by Myrtales Instinct
 


I only want to correct one thing. When the apostles were spreading the good news, there were several examples of people who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism. This was amazing to the apostles and proved that there is only one requirement faith. Everything else is external, good things to do as confirmation of your believe but outward signs only.

I know what you mean. It is hard to share testimony with people without sounding like bragging. I try to always make sure I let people know i am a sinner who was given this gift by the Holy Spirit, and i do not feel righteous but humbled by gods love and grace. The same love and grace he has for all. I do believe that we are all part of the body of Christ and that each of us have our own gifts and testimonies that are worth sharing.

Although I believe Christ in all, i do sincerely believe that I am to try and bring as many to repentance and truth so that they may to share in the glory of god. I believe that failure is not an option but the kingdom can not be forced on anyone. So I always leave people who choose not to believe with the command to love thy neighbor as thyself. If they can do this they will indeed be following what Christ taught even if they do not accept the bible. I believe loving others brings joy and i want all to know joy. I would prefer all be born again but loving is the most important thing for all.
edit on 30-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 12:54 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct
 



This is why Jesus washed his disciples feet. He told them 'if you have had a bath (water baptism) all that you need is for you feet to be washed. I must cleanse you or you have no part with me. You do not understand what I am doing now, but you will understand later.'


What does him washing his disciples feet have to do with baptism?



Hey Akragon, how ya doing? Hope you are well.

When the baptism of fire starts - it begins in your feet. Not on the outside but on the inside. Maybe as a kid you once put a nine volt battery to your lip or had someone trick you into doing it? That is what the fire feels like. Little baby zaps that course through either our veins or possibly the nervous system.

Sounds strange I know, just trying my best to describe it.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 01:06 AM
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Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct
 



This is why Jesus washed his disciples feet. He told them 'if you have had a bath (water baptism) all that you need is for you feet to be washed. I must cleanse you or you have no part with me. You do not understand what I am doing now, but you will understand later.'


What does him washing his disciples feet have to do with baptism?



Hey Akragon, how ya doing? Hope you are well.

When the baptism of fire starts - it begins in your feet. Not on the outside but on the inside. Maybe as a kid you once put a nine volt battery to your lip or had someone trick you into doing it? That is what the fire feels like. Little baby zaps that course through either our veins or possibly the nervous system.

Sounds strange I know, just trying my best to describe it.




Interesting... life is amazing my friend thank you for asking


that sounds like a meditation actually... but i wasn't asking you to discribe it...

When he washed his disciples feet.. what does that mean to you?




posted on Jan, 31 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 



I just want to preface this post, by explaining that although I believe in Jesus, I don’t actually belong to any Christian denomination. And in fact, I’ve rejected just about every denomination based on some of the doctrines that they hold. But I do accept a lot of standard Christian theology.




Originally posted by sacgamer25
I understand what you are saying and why you believe what you do, but there are three gifts. If there were only 2 why would the bible mention 3?



3 gifts???


Ok, I think I need to clarify something in the terminology here…because I’m not sure how you see this, so here are the 2 options.

(1) “Christ is in all of us” and when a believer receives/acknowledges the Holy Spirit, it is revealed in you/them. And a person then knows that Christ is in you/them? Because he was always there…

Or

(2) “Christ is not in all of us”, and when a believer receives the Holy Spirit, it spiritually comes into a person, And only then does “Christ live in them” and become revealed to them. Not because he was always there, but because he has entered and revealed himself to them.


Option 2, is how I currently believe it.


Noticed that in the above, the phrase “Christ in you”, can be applied to both, but only one can be correct. Unless of course you believe that “Christ in you” and receiving the “Holy Spirit” are 2 completely separate things.

This is essentially what I need some clarification on…




Originally posted by sacgamer25
What you believe is that someone has to first accept Christ to know the love of God.


Not exactly, they know love because the laws are written on their hearts. But from an atheist’s perspective, they generally just don’t know God exists.



Originally posted by sacgamer25
Jesus is the word of God and the word is love. So everyone that knows love must know God. They must have been given the gift of love. Jesus was the promise of love, Grace and Salvation. He is the gift of love. He is the word because he is the word that became flesh.



The problem with your thinking is that Jesus said we only come to the Father through him. Everyone knows love because of the Laws written on their hearts. If everyone who knows love knows God, then that would make everyone a theist! Which on the upside, would save on a lot of protracted arguments lol




Originally posted by sacgamer25
If what you say is true that baptism of the Holy Spirit is the same as receiving the spirit of Christ, how can these things be true? Paul was born with the Spirit of Christ like I showed you.



But what you have shown isn’t clear. What Paul was describing in Galatians 1:15-1615, where it is stated “to reveal his Son in me”, is IMO describing (option 2 above) the spirit coming to dwell in him. We also know from the day of Pentecost that the Spirit descended onto the disciples in tongues of fire. So we have this visual impression of the spirit coming on us and into us.


Having said all that, the “Christ in you”, may be something separate like you said, but you need to somehow show it, by differentiating it from (a) The receiving of Holy Spirit (B) The laws of God written on our hearts, and more importantly (C) that it can be attributed to unbelievers, and not believers who may have already received the Holy Spirit.




Originally posted by sacgamer25
And what does the secret kept for generations past, Christ in you, mean? You see both of these verses show you that the spirit of Christ was in men before the baptism of the Holy Spirit was even part of the covenant with man.



But all those verses you showed in your previous post, are about believers who may have already received the Holy Spirit. So when they say Christ was revealed in them/me, they may be meaning option 2, where Christ was revealed, because he literally came into them.




Originally posted by sacgamer25
Man did not even receive baptism of the Holy Spirit until after Jesus ascended into heaven, proving that it was indeed only part of the new covenant. So the bible tells you that before Jesus was born a man, Christ was in them.


Where does the bible say “Christ was in them” in the Old Testament?

continued...


edit on 31-1-2012 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2012 @ 03:30 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


…continued…



Originally posted by sacgamer25
There is simply no loving way to tell someone that they will go to hell if they don’t believe the bible, so this cannot be the good news. Even if you don't say it but believe it in your heart this also cannot be the Good News.



Many Christians don’t like to look at this verse, but here it is…



Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


I don’t happen to be a JW, but I actually go along with the Jehovah witness theology regarding judgment. They believe that because God will resurrect the bodies of the righteous and the unrighteous, that this may be an indication, that God may give the unrighteous a second chance to come to God. They also believe that Hell is a place of destruction for the Soul, and not a place of everlasting torture/punishment.


Just to add a little of my own personal take on this discussion, I actually believe that when a person seeks or even follows in their own heart, after the way the truth and the life, without knowing Jesus of the bible; then they are, in effect, following God, without even knowing it.


God works in spirit and in truth, so I do believe there are people out there, who have actually received the spirit, but maybe don’t realize or know that it’s from God/Jesus, even though that’s exactly what is guiding them and living in them. This is especially true when we look at some righteous men/women through history, who did not profess to be Christians.

Just my thoughts…


- JC



posted on Jan, 31 2012 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 






Originally posted by Akragon
What does him washing his disciples feet have to do with baptism?




Everything lol

You get the feet right and everything else just flows…



Seriously though – Myrtales Instinct, told me about her feet and the buzzing lol back in 2008! About roughly 3 months after I joined ATS!

What she doesn’t know, is that back then I was still searching for God and didn’t even believe in Jesus/God. Sometime around the back end of 2009 I started to get this buzzing in my feet, late at night. I thought to myself “no way!…could this be…? lol”

There’s a lot more to my story, so here’s the short version. In 2010 I received the Holy Spirit, after finally coming to believe in Jesus over a 3 year journey, which started in 2007.

So if you get any feelings of any buzzing in your feet, it means you’re on the right path…




- JC



posted on Jan, 31 2012 @ 04:52 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


You know I think you are right. I have been trying to separate the Holy Spirit from the Spirit of Christ. After looking at the Old Testament, and rereading the verses on the Spirit of Christ in the New Testament, I believe that the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ are one. It is the word of God that is written on everyone's heart, but the word is the word of Christ.

So I would like to change my opinion slightly. Our consciousness, our ingrained knowledge of Good and evil we are born with. So what we are born with is the word of Jesus in us, but not the spirit. In essence this still proves that there are three separate gifts. The father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. It is just that the word in itself is enough proof that we are all intended to follow the message of Jesus. Jesus came in the flesh to help us understand the word in us. The great thing about this is no one seems to disagree with the message he was teaching, regardless of religion. They only struggle with his deity.

Here is what I have been struggling with. I know that I am born of the spirit. And I know that there is something in each of us that points to the message of Christ. I know this because I see the word at work in me from when I was a child and I see it at work in my daughter. I know that that we are all loved by Jesus, no matter what we believe. The problem I have been having is Christians. But I think I have figured this out. Believing that Jesus is the son of God does not qualify you for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You must truly believe in him and repent.

To believe in him and repent this is done by works. You don’t believe in him if you don’t do what he said. You must be kind, generous, loving. You must not be greedy, immoral, and judgmental. But so many Christians that believe that Jesus is the son, by their words and actions prove they do not believe in him. So they are not in him so he is not in them.

God works in mysterious and wonderful ways sometimes. This is the verse that I was listening to while driving today and it is the passage that makes everything fit.



Dispute over whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are John 8 31:47

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says.

The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”


The problem is with the church. They are teaching when you believe “THAT” Jesus is the son of God that you receive the Spirit. This is simply not true. It is when you believe “IN” that you receive the Holy Spirit. And you must by your words and actions prove that you believe in him. For he knows your heart and if you don’t act on what you know to be true than you have not believed “IN” the message. You are not in Christ and he is not in you.

I think that the problem with the church is they are stuck on Grace because they do not fully understand the purpose of Grace. You are forgiven so that you may come back to god in love and not fear. The power of Grace has been nullified by the church because they have not included the necessity to repent. Nor do they teach what repentance is, turning away from sin. For if you break one law it is as if you have broken them all. You must turn away from sin and believe that the Son can set you free from sin. It is faith that is credited as righteousness; you must believe that God will do what he promises. The church is teaching people that they will never stop sinning. What they need to teach is God wants you to stop sinning, that you must believe that by his power you can become free from sin.

There are so many Christians who are like the Pharisees. The Jews were “God’s chosen people” yet Christ calls them children of Satan. There are many Christians who are “Gods chosen people” Who are children of Satan. These Pharisees could not see the truth that the whole law amounted to love God and love your neighbor.

Christians who continue to judge the world, who by doing so cast the first stone, do not understand the most important commands. Nor do they even understand what a child of Satan is, or what it means to die in sin. They have not repented and believed “IN” Jesus, they have merely believed “That” Jesus is. And they have believed this is enough, and maybe it is enough to receive the gift of heaven. But they simply do not have the gift of Baptism and because of this they have not become children of God. This causes me great sorrow, for I only wish that everyone know the love of God that I know.

This is only a slight change to what I am saying, and I have much more work to do which is why I am posting here on ATS. You are the first one who challenged me with intelligence and biblical questions, without becoming the Judge. I believe this was no accident. I believe that God intended me to see the message of the word of Christ in all, because I have gathered much evidence that this is a fact according to the bible. The message I have for the world is going to cause people to hate me but I know that it is the truth. And the truth is Most Christians have not been baptized by the Holy Spirit. They have continued down the path of sin that leads to death. The second part is going to cause even more hate, there are people who have followed Christ, the word on their heart, without believing "That" who have indeed found the path to life.

They have not understood Jesus when he said this.


Luke 9:27 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.

I believe you understand this verse and what I am saying in a way that many don’t. Please let me know what you think.

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posted on Jan, 31 2012 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


There are Chakras in your feet... and all over the body actually...

Though i believe you may be missing the point of the testamony.... which is why i asked "what does it mean to you" a few posts back...

The Meaning is symbolic... the act isn't required. Only the understanding of the symbolism...




posted on Jan, 31 2012 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Joecroft
 


There are Chakras in your feet... and all over the body actually...

Though i believe you may be missing the point of the testamony.... which is why i asked "what does it mean to you" a few posts back...

The Meaning is symbolic... the act isn't required. Only the understanding of the symbolism...



I believe the act of washing the feet symbolized several messages.

The washing of sins, Grace
Baptism of the Holy Spirit making the whole body clean.

But the one that most don’t follow is becoming a servant to the world.

In today’s church the congregation serves the church. The church was supposed to serve the congregation. What the church has done is become a burden to the congregation and a stumbling block to the truth. The congregation was never intended to carry the financial burden of the church. The elders were required to prove that they managed their own family well so that they might be able to serve the congregation without being a burden.



posted on Jan, 31 2012 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by Akragon
 






Originally posted by Akragon
What does him washing his disciples feet have to do with baptism?




Everything lol

You get the feet right and everything else just flows…



Seriously though – Myrtales Instinct, told me about her feet and the buzzing lol back in 2008! About roughly 3 months after I joined ATS!

What she doesn’t know, is that back then I was still searching for God and didn’t even believe in Jesus/God. Sometime around the back end of 2009 I started to get this buzzing in my feet, late at night. I thought to myself “no way!…could this be…? lol”

There’s a lot more to my story, so here’s the short version. In 2010 I received the Holy Spirit, after finally coming to believe in Jesus over a 3 year journey, which started in 2007.

So if you get any feelings of any buzzing in your feet, it means you’re on the right path…




- JC


How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, "Your God reigns!"

Your post made me want to do one of those hyperextended toe touches cheerleaders do!Lol Is your story around here anywhere? I'm dying to read it. I attempted to write out akragon a post, two or three times only to delete it. I always feel like a broke record around here and when I told the original story, I remember you (Jc) participating in that thread. Then on a later thread you asked me if I was the one who had the buzzing in my feet.

I am of the opinion, based on verses from the bible, that we first start perceiving the Holy Spirit in our feet. Isaiah 43 is practically a testament to the baptism of spirit and fire. In the OT whenever he talks of things springing up, like Isa 43:19 , Isa 45:8, Isa 55:10-11, he is giving us clues or hinting at something major. Usually found within these texts are the ideologies of living water, fire, with the end result being JOY. We are witnesses to these things, give our testimonies, so others can know and share in this joy.

akragon - what it means to me is such a loaded question. It is a sacred revealed mystery. I'm not a catholic. I don't even belong to any denomination. I worship in the Spirit and truth because it's what I know and Jesus said that these are the types of worshipers God seeks. God is spirit, so we must worship in Spirit and truth.

Jesus washing his disciples feet in the physical, exemplifies what he does in the spiritual; he is still serving us, even on the other side - because he is the resurrection.



posted on Jan, 31 2012 @ 06:46 PM
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As an all or nothing proposition, it's all-INclusive and cannot be exclusive.

After all, if we do not possess a love for everyone, ourself included, we cannot really love anyone in particular, and most certainly not in an unconditional manner (the only kind of real love there is).

"Love God above all and neighbor as self."
~ Height of the law and the prophets' channeled/inspired wisdom

"I have only one commandment. Love one another as I have loved you. By your love for one another they will know that you are my desciples."

American Christendom, or Evangelical Conservative Fundamentalist Christianity, of the "believe or be damned" persuation, are a grave insult and shame to the love of God in Jesus Christ, who's great work was for one and all, whether we believe in him or not, because he said, even of those who put him on the cross (which includes everyone at some level in our hatred, sinfulness, jealousies etc,) "Forgive them father for they know not what they do."

If Christ was in the Spirit of God with the Spirit of God in him, how ELSE can we enter into the KOH except by that same spirit?

Christianity is NOT an exclusive club, and cannot be, since any such exclusion based on doctrinal belief, run contrary to it's central tenet, and demonstration!


edit on 31-1-2012 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



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