Jesus, the members only Club, only members allowed

reply to post by sacgamer25


Hitler committed mortal sins, and Jesus judges by works too, not just faith.

reply to post by 547000


Christ lives in you and you must listen to him. I agree. But not all have to believe in the bible. Just because someone does not believe that the bible is the truth and that Christ is in them does not mean they do not believe the message from Christ that is in them. God is love, if one knows love and follows love they are listening to God. They have believed the message on their hearts.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by 547000

 

Yes and I showed you what that verse meant. Based on what you say you believe Hitler is more likely to be in heaven than Gandhi. How can you not see this is a problem, and this is not love?


Christ lives in you and you must listen to him. I agree. But not all have to believe in the bible. Just because someone does not believe that the bible is the truth and that Christ is in them does not mean they do not believe the message from Christ that is in them. God is love, if one knows love and follows love they are listening to God. They have believed the message on their hearts.

edit on 28-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

No, that is YOUR interpretation. But I gave you verses which contradict that interpretation. Either you believe the bible is the word of God or you are.

reply to post by 547000


You have not given me verses that contradict what I say. What you have given me is verses that the church has interpreted incorrectly. The interpretaion causes judgement therefore it must be incorrect. Jesus would not say plainly do not judge then teach you something that caused you to judge someone to hell. Expecially when he said you would be judged by the same measure you judge others. Your church is teaching a judgement of hell on people, how will your church escape the same judgement? Are they better than Christ that they do not have to listen to him?

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Hitler committed mortal sins, and Jesus judges by works too, not just faith.

So I don't put words in your mouth let me ask you what you believe.

Can the unconverted Muslim go to heaven? Can the Atheisist go to heaven? Can anyone who does not believe in Jesus get to heaven?

If God is love, how does the unbeliever know love?

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Hitler committed mortal sins, and Jesus judges by works too, not just faith.

So I don't put words in your mouth let me ask you what you believe.

Can the unconverted Muslim go to heaven? Can the Atheisist go to heaven? Can anyone who does not believe in Jesus get to heaven?

If God is love, how does the unbeliever know love?

If they have invincible ignorance they might. Otherwise no.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by 547000

 

You have not given me verses that contradict what I say. What you have given me is verses that the church has interpreted incorrectly. The interpretaion causes judgement therefore it must be incorrect. Jesus would not say plainly do not judge then teach you something that caused you to judge someone to hell. Expecially when he said you would be judged by the same measure you judge others. Your church is teaching a judgement of hell on people, how will your church escape the same judgement? Are they better than Christ that they do not have to listen to him?

You say everyone else's interpretation but your own is wrong. How proud you must be to not consider that the bible says scripture is not of private interpretation...

Originally posted by 547000

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by 547000

 

You have not given me verses that contradict what I say. What you have given me is verses that the church has interpreted incorrectly. The interpretaion causes judgement therefore it must be incorrect. Jesus would not say plainly do not judge then teach you something that caused you to judge someone to hell. Expecially when he said you would be judged by the same measure you judge others. Your church is teaching a judgement of hell on people, how will your church escape the same judgement? Are they better than Christ that they do not have to listen to him?

You say everyone else's interpretation but your own is wrong. How proud you must be to not consider that the bible says scripture is not of private interpretation...

Does that mean only the church can give you the right interpretation?

Originally posted by 547000

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by 547000

 

You have not given me verses that contradict what I say. What you have given me is verses that the church has interpreted incorrectly. The interpretaion causes judgement therefore it must be incorrect. Jesus would not say plainly do not judge then teach you something that caused you to judge someone to hell. Expecially when he said you would be judged by the same measure you judge others. Your church is teaching a judgement of hell on people, how will your church escape the same judgement? Are they better than Christ that they do not have to listen to him?

You say everyone else's interpretation but your own is wrong. How proud you must be to not consider that the bible says scripture is not of private interpretation...

Luke 11:5-11
5 Then he said to them, “Suppose one of you has a friend, and he goes to him at midnight and says, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, 6 because a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have nothing to set before him.’

7 “Then the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children are with me in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him the bread because he is his friend, yet because of the man’s boldness[e] he will get up and give him as much as he needs.

9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, HOW MUCH MORE WILL YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN GIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT to those who ask him!”

1 Corinthians 2:10
"But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God."

John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you."

JOHN 16:13
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH ..."

I prayed for the gift of interpretation with boldness, not only believing that God would give it to me like he promised, but actually taking it as a fact that God cannot lie. So I prayed for the Holy Spirit, prayed for the Holy Spirit to interpret the bible for me, and the Holy Spirit did interpret the bible for me.

You are correct I do not believe in personal interpretation either. But I do believe in God and when he promises me something and I have believed that he will give it to me I find that he indeed is not a liar.

You are saying that the Holy Spirit has not interpreted the bible for you and that the church is the only authority that can interpret. This is not what these passages say. If you could have faith that God will give you the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will teach you all things than indeed the Holy Spirit would teach you as well.

You see you believe a church that has told you a lie. They have told you that church is the only authority. There are numerous passages in the bible that say that the Holy Spirit is the only teacher. This is why no one is to be called teacher. If you think I am trying to teach you anything you are wrong. Do I have the gift of teaching; if I do it is not me teaching but the Holy Spirit teaching through me. I am only the humble servant.

Only the Holy Spirit can interpret the bible, especially Paul. The great news is the promise is for all. All who seek will find. Everyone can receive the Holy Spirit and the gift of interpretation of scripture. God wants us to have this so that we may test teachers and profits, to see if they are true or false.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Stop being silly. I have experienced miracle of a light filling my body. But I understand my knowledge can lead me to error because of my ignorance. Who better to trust than those who were educated by the apostles and have been in existence for over 2000 years? Obviously it is possible to think you are right when you are wrong, hence why there are so many denominations. You are no different from Joe Schmoe who thinks he is guided by God by protesting and starting another denomination. On the other hand reading what the early church fathers believed, you would have to end up a Catholic.

reply to post by Akragon


Only it has been given the gift that the gates of hell can never prevail. There is no guarantee each individual will be correct, as shown by history.

Originally posted by 547000

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by 547000

 

You have not given me verses that contradict what I say. What you have given me is verses that the church has interpreted incorrectly. The interpretaion causes judgement therefore it must be incorrect. Jesus would not say plainly do not judge then teach you something that caused you to judge someone to hell. Expecially when he said you would be judged by the same measure you judge others. Your church is teaching a judgement of hell on people, how will your church escape the same judgement? Are they better than Christ that they do not have to listen to him?

You say everyone else's interpretation but your own is wrong. How proud you must be to not consider that the bible says scripture is not of private interpretation...

I do not consider myself Proud. What I do have is zeal for God, and I apologize that sometimes that zeal sounds like pride and self righteousness. I do not consider myself any better than anyone else. As a servant of God I consider myself the least of all his servants. Sometimes I question God as to why he picked a sinner like me to serve him. The knowledge that has been given me is humbling to me because it far surpasses my knowledge. I simply could not speak so boldly about my faith if not for the Holy Spirit in me.

I have only done what I am asking you to do. Stop listening to the traditions of men and let God do what he promises. Your church is not better than you. They do not possess an ability that you cannot have. You can have any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit that you are willing to believe that God has given you.

The church has kept you from realizing your gifts; they have not nurtured your faith to help you find the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to all who believe. The Holy Spirit wants you to interpret for you and give you the gifts of the Holy Spirit; it is only you that holds you back. God is always ready to deliver on his promises.

If you would trust God and the Holy Spirit I would not need to try to explain anything to you. The truth would be yours. You can continue to believe that your church holds all the keys to the truth or you can believe that God is the holder of the keys and he is ready to give them to you.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Stop with this nonsense. I have experienced miracles and my reading of the bible points me to the Catholic Church. You ignore verses that point to authority of church because it disturbs you that God placed humans to lead followers until He returns.

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Stop being silly. I have experienced miracle of a light filling my body. But I understand my knowledge can lead me to error because of my ignorance. Who better to trust than those who were educated by the apostles and have been in existence for over 2000 years? Obviously it is possible to think you are right when you are wrong, hence why there are so many denominations. You are no different from Joe Schmoe who thinks he is guided by God by protesting and starting another denomination. On the other hand reading what the early church fathers believed, you would have to end up a Catholic.

How is believing in the word of God silly? You are the one that believes the church over the word of God. The church tells you they hold the keys and you believe them. The bible says that Jesus holds the keys and I believe the bible.

The church says they are infallible, but they now claim they don’t even believe that the bible is completely true. The bible says that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow but the church keeps changing what they say. If the church was infallible, the bible would be perfect, the books that were first kept out would not have been later put back in.

Do you understand infallibility? The church is far from infallible.

I pray that someday you can stop going to the proven fallible church for interpretation and turn to the only truly infallible source which is God who gives freely of the Holy Spirit to all that ask.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Stop being silly. I have experienced miracle of a light filling my body. But I understand my knowledge can lead me to error because of my ignorance. Who better to trust than those who were educated by the apostles and have been in existence for over 2000 years? Obviously it is possible to think you are right when you are wrong, hence why there are so many denominations. You are no different from Joe Schmoe who thinks he is guided by God by protesting and starting another denomination. On the other hand reading what the early church fathers believed, you would have to end up a Catholic.

How is believing in the word of God silly? You are the one that believes the church over the word of God. The church tells you they hold the keys and you believe them. The bible says that Jesus holds the keys and I believe the bible.

The church says they are infallible, but they now claim they don’t even believe that the bible is completely true. The bible says that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow but the church keeps changing what they say. If the church was infallible, the bible would be perfect, the books that were first kept out would not have been later put back in.

Do you understand infallibility? The church is far from infallible.

I pray that someday you can stop going to the proven fallible church for interpretation and turn to the only truly infallible source which is God who gives freely of the Holy Spirit to all that ask.

THE BIBLE SAYS PETER HAS BEEN GIVEN THE KEYS AND PETER HAS TRANSFERRED THE AUTHORITY DOWN THE LINE. THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS BELIEVED THE SAME THING AND THEY WERE EDUCATED BY THE APOSTLES.

HOW CAN YOU SAY YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD BUT THEN IGNORE THINGS YOU DON'T LIKE.

YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND THE CHURCH'S CLAIM OF INFALLIBILITY, DO YOU?

Seek the truth and you shall find it.

reply to post by sacgamer25




Sorry to interrupt like this, but I couldn’t help but comment on your post below…

James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Originally posted by sacgamer25
You see believing that Jesus is the son of God only makes you as good as the demon, so this does not appear to be the correct way to interpret the scripture, and if you don’t believe yet read this.

Matthew 7:22-23 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Originally posted by sacgamer25
So Again it appears that “BELIVING IN” is a little different than “BELIVING THAT” he is the son of God.

Yes, this is actually true, believing that Jesus is the “Son of God”, is not the same as “believing in him.” "Believing in him” is about having a change of heart, to follow what God stands for and represents; which Demons clearly don’t do, even though they know whom Jesus is.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

What does “BELIVE IN” Jesus look like?
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Turn the other cheek and love your enemy.
Don’t judge because all have fallen short.
God loves us all.

Yes, this is what belief should look like! And the reason it should look like that is because Jesus is a spiritual being, with a character and an essence, which people are meant to get to know and follow.

In John 14:21 and John 15:9-10 Jesus says words to the effect of, “those who love him, will keep the commandments.”

John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

John 15:9-10
“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

And like you said, most people are keeping the commandments, but don’t believe in Jesus and God etc…but at the same time, they are honoring Gods words, by keeping the commandments, without even realizing it.

And seeing as God knows all our hearts, he will know, how best to judge those people come judgment day. This is partly the reason why I don’t condemn people to Hell, in any way, because I realize that in the end, only God can judge a person fairly.

In fact, I’ve come to the conclusion that believing in Jesus is all about people finding and coming to know God, than it is about condemnation. Not that there isn’t a judgment, but that it’s only Gods to make. And believers should be more concerned with helping people get to know God, and the receiving the Holy Spirit, above all else.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
For you to understand what this means you must first understand the basic teaching. I have posted it many times, but the basic teaching is that all who know love are born with the spirit of Christ.

This is the only part I’m not sure about. You are right to some extent though, because there are verses in the OT, in Isaiah, and Proverbs, which talk about the laws being written on our hearts. So the laws were always written our hearts, even before Jesus came in the flesh. I’m not sure of the exact verse numbers, of the top of my head but I know they are there, because I have read them.


Anyway, the point I’m not sure I follow you on, is where you say; “born with the Spirit of Christ”, as opposed to being “born again” of the Spirit. How do you distinguish between the two?


The reason I ask is because I’m just not sure that having the laws written on our hearts = “being born again.”, or that they = being “born with the spirit of Christ”. Not sure how you see this, so perhaps you could explain it further.


I do have an answer for this however, but I would be interested in hearing your take on it first, because being “born again”, is an important aspect to believing and getting to know Christ. When I came to believe in Jesus, I received the Holy Spirit, and I literally experienced what is described in John 7:38 for real. Receiving it, is an actual spiritual event, that happens in a person’s life, when they come to believe in Jesus.


Peace be with you…


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


Yes you are absolutly right, being born again is an extremely spiritual experience. If you have had this experience you know, and it will humble you. Because you realize that you have just recieved a gift that you could never possibly deserve, and it was only by faith and God's grace that you can have this experience.

I will show you why I believe that the son is truly the gift of love that all are born with, and why I believe that baptism of the Holy Spirit is a seperate occasion, that not all who believe that Jesus is the son have experienced.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Romans 2:14-15 14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that the GENTILES ARE FELLOW HEIRS, MEMBERS OF THE SAME BODY, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Colossians 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

The Gentiles proved the law, or the word was written on their hearts, since they had the word they had the spirit of Christ. Because Jesus is the word made flesh. You can also see clearly that the Gentiles are fellow heirs. Gentiles refers to EVERYONE WHO IS NOT OF JEWISH DECENT. This means that we are all part of the same body, weather we acknowledge it or not.

Colossians 1 24:27 24 26 This message was kept secret for centuries and generations past, but now it has been revealed to God’s people. 27 For God wanted them to know that the riches and glory of Christ are for you Gentiles, too. And this is the secret: Christ lives in you. This gives you assurance of sharing his glory.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE AGES BEGAN

This secret was kept for centuries, since the beginning of man I assume. CHRIST LIVES IN YOU.

Galatians 1:15-1615 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being.

This is Saul who was later called Paul the writer of much of the New Testament saying that God revealed to him something that had been there since he was in his mother’s womb. HIS SON IN ME, realize this meant that Paul just realized that he had been persecuting not strangers following the way but his true brothers, even watching them be stoned to death. Not hard to see why he preached with such Zeal for those who are forgiven much love much.

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.

Jesus has COME IN THE FLESH. Demons and evil spirits can acknowledge that Jesus came in the flesh as a man walking the earth, quite honestly 2000 years ago when this was written I don’t imagine this was even in question. So this must mean that Jesus has come in YOUR FLESH, something the evil spirit cannot acknowledge, because it is not so. I believe that not everyone will call the guiding spirit in them Jesus, but I do believe that all good people can acknowledge that something in them is guiding them to be generous and loving; even if they admit they don't listen to it like they should.

Luke 17:21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

The kingdom of God is within you, you are the temple.

So the question is who has Jesus in them? The church teaches that one must say they have the son in order to receive Christ in them. But this is not true. Here is how you know who has Christ in them.

1 John 4:7-15 7 Dear friends let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

***************These are 2 separate concepts that the church has merged into one*****************

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

In the top part of the passage it is being explained who has the son in them. It is clear by this passage that EVERYONE WHO LOVES IS BORN OF GOD AND KNOWS GOD, because GOD IS LOVE. So if you love you prove the son lives in you. Because the son is the gift of love God has given us.

The second part of the message says that you must acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, Anyone who acknowledges this, God lives in them and THEY IN GOD.

This is 2 separate messages love proves that the son lives in you, acknowledging it proves that you live in him. You can’t live in him if you don’t acknowledge that the son lives in you. But this does not mean that the son does not live in you.

1 John 4:18 there is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

When you realize that all are born with the spirit of Christ, than you are teaching a message of true love and Grace. We were born loved and forgiven, all of us. Most Christians actually believe that only people who acknowledge Jesus as the son are truly loved and forgiven by God. This is ridiculous causing self rightousness and judgement, God loves us all, and there are many loving people that do not acknowledge Christ before they die. Since they were born with the word, the son, they indeed can and will still be judged fairly.

What Christians are called to do is teach the good news of Christ in you. It is important that all hear this message, because I don’t believe that one can receive the gift of baptism of the Holy Spirit or any of the accompanying gifts without acknowledging Christ, and following him. This does not mean they will not be saved at judgment but it does mean that they have not been made sure of their salvation before the physical body passes away.

Many Christians will say that I am talking about universalism but this is not what I am saying. If one refuses to live by the law on their heart and remains an unrepentant sinner, they are in danger of the lake of fire which is the second death.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Because Jesus is the word made flesh.

My guess is that this idea comes from the Dark Ages and not so good a translation from the Greek into Old Latin Vulgate and it was adopted as such and over time became so ingrained into Christian thinking that modern Bibles are loath to correct it.
The proper reading of John 1 where it is normally taken as I quoted from your post, should be something like, 'It came about that God's message of life to mankind dwelt among us in the person of Jesus.'

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Because Jesus is the word made flesh.

My guess is that this idea comes from the Dark Ages and not so good a translation from the Greek into Old Latin Vulgate and it was adopted as such and over time became so ingrained into Christian thinking that modern Bibles are loath to correct it.
The proper reading of John 1 where it is normally taken as I quoted from your post, should be something like, 'It came about that God's message of life to mankind dwelt among us in the person of Jesus.'

edit on 28-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Thay may be true but your interpretaion would still fit with the rest of what I am saying. Anything less than what I am saying being true is implying that Grace and salvation is only for those who accept Jesus. This is still salvation by works. It also implies hell for those who don't accept Jesus, which is doctorine of fear, not love. Love is not made perfect in fear.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Salvation is through forgiveness and how it works is that our sins are forgotten about.
I am trying hard to change the way I think about these things to fit a different paradigm where God is not punishing us but it is like what a lot of people on this forum think, which is karma, but not really, to me, where it is a mental exercise by some shadowy entity behind everything, but more like it is nature taking its course which does not involve thought but just follows built in rules.
God is a being, which is another huge diversion from my previous thinking, meaning a person, and as some people criticize believers about, how we make God to be like ourselves with emotions, well so what(!) , and what is wrong with that?
The unthinking, unfeeling, remorseless entity is the universe and material existence. We do not need God to be like that because nature fills that role sufficiently. Nature is: life is generated from another living being and grows within it and then breaks off to form another entity, then later the earlier entity dies and its constituent parts break down and are utilized by other living entities and that being ceases to exist as a unique person and is later on completely forgotten about and it has no thoughts either since its thinking ability was crystallized and shattered into millions of pieces.
God is spirit and not dependent on the physical universe and does not go through that same sort of process of life and death. God looks at us and sees someone like Himself with a spirit and a soul but one dependent on that physical existence because that is what makes us who we are, the bodies that we have. God says to Himself that He knows enough about nature and the universe that he can solve this dilemma but it really is not a good thing to put into practice if the people who are the subjects of this transformation have this spirit which is weighted down by the oppressive life of existence and have become basically evil.