Obama Defends Roe v. Wade As Way for ‘Our Daughters’ to Have Same Chance As Sons to ‘Fulfill T

reply to post by windword


umm no take your forced sterilization back to teh 1920s where they belong not in modern times screw this forced morality crap and trying to force people to have medical procedures thats just pure lunacy i hope you never get into any form of power or political clout or we are screwed

Yep there you have it people

The constitutional right to murder.

Gotta be nice to get to define what life is and what the consequences are the Government will decree your rights to kill instead of use protection.

reply to post by AzureSky


you go round up some people and try to move every one to australia (killing its natural habitat) oh yeah and living on one of the most desert like areas (australia occupies most of the coast line not the interior) and where are you gonna grow food with all of the worlds population? they would have to live near the farms thus creating some people who get to live out relitivly uncrowded and in natural beauty while the rest of the world is stuck in huge over crowded and probaly crime ridden megacities how would u get water to all these people,truck it in ship it in? where will it be collected to be diverted to the people?(desalinization might work)how will you power this continent full of humans from every culture(some of which deeply hate eachother) who will be in charge? will there be wars that will now be fought blocks away instead of worlds away?does australia get a say in this?will people be forced to move?(you wanna kick the native americans,palestinians insert opressed people here out of their repective countries?)how will laws work? will religions be respected who gets the land for the churches? too many problems with living on one continet and the more spread out we are seems the better for us as a species.


over population is a real issue but its compounded by lack of food and water to certain areas of the globe,corruption and lack of sustainable living areas and compounded further by how our world economies work and disasters accross the globe dont help either

more on topic happy belated birthday roe v wade better to have a #ty choice then no choice at all (or to have it made for you or by some one else agaisnt your wishes)

reply to post by Indigo5


I know this is like beating a dead horse, but I am still curious as to how you came to your conclusion about when life begins. When the sperm enters the egg, cell growth starts immediately. If the process is successful and uninterupted you get a baby. From the merging of one egg and one sperm you get one cell, that then turns into two cells and then four and and so on and so on and if allowed to grow, grows into a baby. If the cells are alive and growing properly how can they not be considered life? I do not understand your logic....Also most miscarriages in the first trimester happen due to developmental problems with the cells, actually about 60% are due to some type of anomaly with the cell division. Chromosome anomolies account for another percentage of failed pregnancies. Not the mother. Your arguments make no sense to me, I am only trying to understand your point of view.

Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by Indigo5

 

I know this is like beating a dead horse, but I am still curious as to how you came to your conclusion about when life begins. When the sperm enters the egg, cell growth starts immediately. If the process is successful and uninterupted you get a baby.

Right there you distinguished between cell-division and "Baby"..."Baby" does not occur immediately, so the question is when.

From the merging of one egg and one sperm you get one cell, that then turns into two cells and then four and and so on and so on and if allowed to grow, grows into a baby. If the cells are alive and growing properly how can they not be considered life? I do not understand your logic....

I do not define cell division as "Life"..the cell division you describe is also how cancerous tumors grow.

At some point that cell division matures to a critical mass or vessel capable of containing human life as we know it in the spiritual or accepted scientific sense. I do not believe that occurs durring the first trimester. I think this is reflected in the high amount of spontaneous abortions/misscarriages seen during that time and how they dramatically lessen to near zero after the first trimester.

The science that supports genetic anomoly as the cause for women misscarrying up to 50% of implantations is more guesswork than science and unsupported. We don't know enough about genomes to make those conclusions from examining misscarriages, nor do I think that nature or God gets there genetic recipe wrong that often. I don't see nature/god as making a mistake in the genetic soup 50% of the time it attempts to reproduce.

That said, even if there were genetic anomolies, it would still be life under your cell division definition..as would tumors...and thus wouldn't be subject to spontaneous abortions, lest god loves life unequally?

The correlation between nutritional deficiences, stress, the womans body being in s good state etc. and other factors with women's health are well and statistically established. The correlations claiming genetic mistakes is not sound science at all IMO...we are all genetic anomolies with none of us having perfectly pristine genetic code, it is easy to find a genetic anomoly we don't fully understand and claim that as the probable cause. Not to say that a percentage of misscarriages are not related to genetic mutation, but it is small. God favors the womans health until after the first Trimester, then he treats the woman and child as equal...Child may live with the woman dying and vice-versa, but he no longer favors one or the other. You don't have to agree, but this was just my conclusion after much personal philosophical and scientific research into the area. I don't like basing my conclusions on religious dictates or idealogical nonsense, but rather on Philosophical, scientific and spiritual exploration. I don't trust orthodox religion or politics for truth.

I would consider unneccesary second tri-mester abortions to be murder unless they are neccessary to save the mothers life and there was a measure of certaintity that the mother and child would both die otherwise.

I consider first trimester abortions to be just that an aborted process.

When does life begin? I have answered that question for myself through careful thought and research. I look to nature/god for clues, not churches, lawyers or politicians. Of course everyone else is entitled to think differently, but I prefer they actually "think".

Don't know what else to say...cell division? It's life only if you consider Tumors life. Sperm meets egg? Why not declare sperm life? It swims around pretty well on it's own with a pretty clear purpose, it competes fiercly...almost in an ""aware" way. ....Should we lock up masterbaters? At some point it all crosses into something we call "life"...a "person"...I think that happens well before birth, but not immediately when the sperm penetrates the egg. I came to my conclusions based on the best question I could think of...not when does a priest think "life" starts...not when a scientist says "Life" starts...but when does God or Nature start to treat those cells Differently? And it is right there...very dramatic...from a 50% risk that god will abort the fetus...to virtually zero...From god/nature often aborting a fetus to protect the mothers health to putting the mother on equal risk footing as the fetus....all changes in a span of a few days.... looking at the evidence, there seems a clear time when God recognizes life...the start of the second trimester.

Not looking to change any minds or religious views, just sharing my thoughts and logicing on the issue and all I have seen in response is "Murder" BS...no rational debate. If someone made a logical argument...one that started with the question "When does life begin" and was able to support their answer without quoting a pro-choice website or the bible it would be worth discussing.

Barry should have been aborted, then we would see how he feels about abortion : P

I really don't think men have a say in the pro choice pro life debate imo.

reply to post by Indigo5



I didn't quote the bible or a pro choice anything. I am talking about basic anatomy. The single cell that is created from the sperm and the egg is called a zygote and is made up of 23 chromosomes from the mother and 23 from the father. Theses chromosomes determine eye color, hair color, things like that. Three weeks after conception the babies heart and brain, among other things, begin to form.

It is apprehensible that anyone would liken a cancer cell to a human embryo. Do cancer cells grow into a baby if left to grow at their own accord? Do parts of the cancer cell turn into arms and legs? Do cancer cells have a brain and a heart?

Originally posted by KilrathiLG
reply to post by windword

 

umm no take your forced sterilization back to teh 1920s where they belong not in modern times screw this forced morality crap and trying to force people to have medical procedures thats just pure lunacy i hope you never get into any form of power or political clout or we are screwed

With all due respect, I think you may be replying to someone else. Maybe
www.abovetopsecret.com... or
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The way I see it is if ladies want to fulfill their dreams without having to deal with the burden of raising a child, then don't get laid without making sure you're either on birth control or the guy is wearing a condom.

I did respond, to the above quote, with what I thought was sarcasm:

How about if we insist that every young man get a reverseable vasectomy at puberty?

So just to be clear, I am NOT in favor of forced sterilization nor am I in favor of forcing a woman to give birth.

The way I see it, he voted to KEEP a right. Kudos
Look I don't believe in abortion myself but keep it out of the back allies.
As far as preventing it condoms don't always work...this is fact. Birth control can sometimes be dangerous. My kidneys are all messed up from birth control I stopped taking 7 years ago. As far as I've read on others lawsuits directed at Bayer some other people made off far worse.
I can honestly say I would never get an abortion myself but ya know what....Never been raped before either...something like that might change my ideal.

Originally posted by windword
I applaud Obama for coming out, especially during an election cycle, to preserve the "right to choose" of women! OP, I couldn't disagree with you more. No one is trying to take away your right to give birth.

OP, you are looking at the world through rosey colored glasses. Not all women will make good moms, or will become better people for having given birth.

Thank you. I'm gonna ditto you and star you.

Major opposition to abortion is Religion. Same major opposition to Gay marriage.

SURPRISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - - I'm sure - not!

But this is not about abortion or gay marriage. It is about Individual Rights.

America is a secular country. Religious belief is an individual right. But it is not a Right to deny others of their individual right.

GO!!!!!!!!!!!! OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
All those saying use birth control seem to forget that it is not always effective.

When it fails for your 16 year old daughter you might sing a different tune.

Hey - it failed for me - - when I got pregnant by my husband as we were going through a divorce. The stress made me sick to my stomach and I threw up my birth control pill - - which resulted in pregnancy.

Divorce can be very hard and emotional. You don't just sever those bonds you've had with someone for 14 years.

With 2 young daughters to take care of - - when I'd only been a stay at home mom.

Enough said.

Obama believes in his right to assassinate whomever he likes, indefinitely detain & torture whomever he likes, unilaterally bomb whichever nation or village he likes; so why am I not surprised he believes it's a constitutional right to abort whichever fetus you like....

I'm not 100 percent against abortion. However this issue is very explosive, because it's partly the women's body; BUT there is another life involved. Another organism of the species homo sapien helplessly growing inside you. Yet some people talk about a fetus as if it's akin to a tumor or parasite. This mindset is incredibly disturbing.... something about the morality of the people which condone the act of violence in any and all cases.

I'm especially opposed to late-term/partial-birth abortions; post-viability and/or after the brain develops. There are more factors involved than just "It's the woman's body.", same goes for the pro-lifers who think aborting a week into pregnancy or the morning after pills should be banned.

Originally posted by spyder550
The government has no business legislating this. It is and always has been between a woman and her doctor.

Kudos for having the courage to do the right thing Mr. President.

Indeed.

Originally posted by HIWATT
Really? How about the daughters that will never be born?

Oh God.

Barf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by beezzer
"Obama: "Abortion Enables Our Daughters To Fulfill Their Dreams", of killing unborn babies because they won't take responsibility for their actions.

Oh God.

Again - - Barf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great move, Obama.

Don't let the sanctimonious ones on their pedestal interrupt. There's reality going on right now.

Makes sense that the same ones who claim they know what's best for all other nations, and advocate a never ending American military presence in those countries, also know what's best for rape victims. Hell............they know what's best for everyone. Santorum thinks abortion is horrible murder yet he smiles at the thought of an Iranian scientist being blown to bits. Jesus would be oh so proud of most American Christians. They're about as far off the mark as you can get.

reply to post by Annee



You are right, it is about individual rights. The argument is always the same and always will be the same because people can't agree if a baby in the womb is considered an individual. I see them as an individual, so when I hear the phrase "pro choice", I have to wince because the baby NEVER gets a choice.

I read a quote be Ronald Reagan, "I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born."

That said though, you never know how you are going to feel and think until you are in a situation. I'm against abortion, but I'm also against the government making laws of a personal nature. Especially since the majority of them on either side are stodgy old men who will never come close to knowing what it is like to be pregnant, scared, alone.

Originally posted by Miss Sile
You are right, it is about individual rights. The argument is always the same and always will be the same because people can't agree if a baby in the womb is considered an individual. I see them as an individual, so when I hear the phrase "pro choice", I have to wince because the baby NEVER gets a choice.

But that is your own personal belief.

Don't quote Ronald Reagan to me - - I have no use for the man.

That said though, you never know how you are going to feel and think until you are in a situation. I'm against abortion, but I'm also against the government making laws of a personal nature. Especially since the majority of them on either side are stodgy old men who will never come close to knowing what it is like to be pregnant, scared, alone.

YES! I remember Phil Donohue one time on a panel discussing abortion. He just bursted out laughing. He said: "Look at us. A panel of old gray haired men telling women what to do with their bodies. How ridiculous."

I've had an abortion - - which I am very open about on this forum. Not once has anyone asked me how I felt - - or was it difficult for me to make that decision.

All I get is self-righteous judgement.

reply to post by paxnatus


I agree 100 percent with OP. It's a dispicable statement.

Let me say this is not to start a religious debate but truly define my personal opinion as to why I think it is wrong.

The greatest gift God gave mankind was and is the gift of eternal life through faith in His son Jesus Christ...unearned and unearnable, it may only be accepted with the contrition of a broken clay jar that seeks the healing hands of the potter to reform it to the image that it was intended to have. That not withstanding,
this greatest gift means nothing if not for the second greatest gift: that of life, which is granted at conception. Life is so important a gift in God's eyes that it's removal by a wanton act is prohibited as a violation of one of His 10 commandments.

An unborn child has no audible voice to proclaim it's worth, no strength of hand to defend itself from those who would rend it's flesh asunder before (and sometimes after) it has seen the light of day. That role of defender is the blessing given to the mother who carries it...to protect and nurture that living soul as its flesh suit knits around it in preparation for its journey on this earth. The soul is there. The eternal essence of a new human exists but the capsule for its journey needs the loving safety of the mothers womb in order for the journey to occur.

The real struggle for a woman is not to ensure that the courts maintain her right to end that life. The real struggle for a woman is to stand up and be firm in her role as defender of life; to resist the temptation to act in God's place as taker of life.

Thanks for your time,

Pax
.