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Obama Defends Roe v. Wade As Way for ‘Our Daughters’ to Have Same Chance As Sons to ‘Fulfill T

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posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

All newborn male babies should have a mandatory Vasectomy before leaving the hospital. Only to be undone when they are able emotionally/physically/financially to support and raise a child.

Im not sure if you were being sarcastic or not.

But this would solve a lot of problems.

Food for thought, btw, I'm a man.




posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:07 PM
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reply to post by blupblup
 


Excuse me? I am 100 % correct in my posting.

Some people are just foolishly stubborn.

But ok nice try.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:07 PM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 




.........tumbleweed.....


edit on 24/1/12 by blupblup because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
I am not going to argue with you on this. If my citations aren't good enough for you that is not my problem.


They are 100% bias to your point of view.

You and your group are intentionally excluding any professional that thinks otherwise.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:09 PM
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reply to post by Tw0Sides
 


Look, I just provided that information for one of the posters. If you are going to ridicule for it, then fine. Still not my problem.

Have a nice day.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by spyder550

Originally posted by Indigo5
I would not choose abortion under any circumstances. I am 100% anti-abortion and 100% pro-choice. It is not a decision that should be dictated by the government. Allowing the government pervue over reproductive decisions is beyond "over-reach" it is the ugly cousin of communism.


Fine that is your choice -- don't have an abortion. BUT that is not everyone's choice - why do you get to say that a woman or a child must bear a child as punishment for assault or failed contraception.

I am tired of the pro-life terrorists -- and I mean terrorists in the full murdering bloody meaning of the word, for that is exactly what they have become.


I think it would do you well to read a little more carefully...knee jerk responses by either side don't help.

Read what I wrote again please.


Originally posted by Indigo5
I would not choose abortion under any circumstances. I am 100% anti-abortion and 100% pro-choice. It is not a decision that should be dictated by the government. Allowing the government pervue over reproductive decisions is beyond "over-reach" it is the ugly cousin of communism.


edit on 24-1-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)


People are capable of vehemently choosing not to have an abortion in their own lives, while at the same time respecting others right to choose otherwise.

And while the Pro-Life movement contains terrorists, it is unfair to declare everyone who is Pro-Life a terrorist and frankly a weak argument.
edit on 24-1-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by Annee

All newborn male babies should have a mandatory Vasectomy before leaving the hospital. Only to be undone when they are able emotionally/physically/financially to support and raise a child.

Im not sure if you were being sarcastic or not.

But this would solve a lot of problems.

Food for thought, btw, I'm a man.


Thanks. I read it somewhere.

I was being a bit sarcastic - - by showing the opposite of sterilizing women.

It is actually a viable thought. Not sure if we are medically advanced enough for it to be plausible yet.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by CaptainIraq
Look, I'm an Atheist and I used to be strongly pro-choice, but there are some other factors to consider in this debate. For instance, riddle me this:

In our legal system, when someone assaults/murders a pregnant woman, the unborn 'child' can be considered a separate victim of the crime. The killer/assaulter, in effect, could be charged for assaulting/murdering two human beings.

So how would it follow, in that same legal system, that the mother has the right to 'murder' her child, just because it's hers? By that same logic, must not we also permit mothers to murder their children after they exit the womb with no consequences?

I honestly don't know when life begins, or should be defined to begin (I don't think I have nearly the required expertise to make that distinction). But what I do know is that our current system is absolutely inconsistent.



That argument is a fallacy.

When someone makes the decision to harm a pregnant woman thus killing her unborn child , they have deprived her of her CHOICE to carry the baby to full term or not. That's why the penalty for such a crime or act makes sense. The odds are if a woman is pregnant and knows it, she wants to keep it.

Ron Paul uses the same argument. Problem is, it's illogical.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by PaxVeritas
 


I just have to say that I LOVE seeing a Ron Paul supporter address this. You're all right, no matter what Skeptic Overlord says about you.




posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:23 PM
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there are so many things wrong with this statement, constitutional revisionism, eugenic pro abortion program, equating children as a prison sentence to your dreams, and my personal disfavorite, another subtle reference to 'our' government family. Disgusting.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by Annee

All newborn male babies should have a mandatory Vasectomy before leaving the hospital. Only to be undone when they are able emotionally/physically/financially to support and raise a child.

Im not sure if you were being sarcastic or not.

But this would solve a lot of problems.

Food for thought, btw, I'm a man.


Thanks. I read it somewhere.

I was being a bit sarcastic - - by showing the opposite of sterilizing women.

It is actually a viable thought. Not sure if we are medically advanced enough for it to be plausible yet.


I've advocated this for quite some time and have mentioned it for both male and female, although I was addressing another poster's comment and chose the female option in my rebuttal.

The problem with advocating this is that it brings up the whole topic of Eugenics and once that starts, then everything is reduced to Nazism.

The fact is that if we are to grow as a species, then we must undertake a more responsible reproduction program. Right now, Row vs. Wade is in effect mainly for political purposes as it is brought up every 4 years or election cycle. However, it makes much more sense to develop a medical way of suppressing the ability to conceive until such time as individuals or couples can demonstrate an ability to raise a child.

And, by saying this, the arguments will fly "who are you to decide" and "who made you god", etc. If we as a society can come up with laws that affect the masses, then surely we can come up with guidelines that will establish who is able to conceive. Caution must be taken to prevent abuse of this by limiting this to only the wealthy or those of certain genetic makeups.

But, I think about inner cities where babies are mass-produced by women entrapped by the welfare state. Who cares how many baby daddies as long as they get their check. And, statistics will show that black males born into this situation will probably end up in jail or dead before they are 21.

I don't care color, ethnicity or social class. What I do care about are men and women who WANT to have and raise a child and have the means to do so.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:27 PM
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Here are more references for those who refuse to see


Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]

"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]

"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]
"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]

"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]
"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]

www.princeton.edu...




A fertilized human egg at the moment of Conception, is the opinion of the creator that a human life at that instant, must begin.... F. Zugibe Frederick T. Zugibe, M.S., M.D., Ph.D., FCAP, FACC, FAAFS
"The question as to when human life and personhood begins has been made a controversial issue because the proponents of abortion do not want it to begin at least before the first 24 weeks of gestation. There, however, should be no controversy because the scientific facts are incontrovertible. These facts have been obscured on both sides by individuals who do not possess the necessary education, training and experience in science to evaluate and interpret the materials and render valid conclusions or who, influenced by their religious or chauvinistic fervor have reached erroneous or untenable suppositions and conclusions, argumentum ad hominem. Justice Blackmun opined in Roe P. Wade that the determination as to when life and personhood begins is a difficult decision that the court is not in a position to speculate on and there in does not have the resolve since those trained in medicine are unable to arrive at any consensus. The U. S. Supreme Court Justices then carried their defective reasoning even further in Roe v. Wade when in contrast with all other civilized societies, ruled that the unborn is a non-person regardless as to whether it is a human being or not. This decision then made the unborn ineligible for the protection that is guaranteed to all human persons under the U. S. Constitution. "

source: e-forensicmedicine.net...



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:28 PM
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If anyone on this thread can supply me with EMPIRICAL proof that a fetus or zygote within the early stages 'feels' pain at termination and is 'aware' of it's impending death. Please do so and I'll never speak of it again.

If anyone one equally has EMPIRICAL proof that a fetus or zygote DOESN'T feel pain at termination and is NOT aware of it's impending death....please provide it.

Nobody knows what goes on. Nobody knows what it is. The most we know is it's a mass of cells developing into something more complex. We don't have the tech to go inside the 'mind' of it and study it's thought processes.

And for people who say 'abstinence' or birth control, that only goes to a certain point. My ex girlfriend got pregnant while she was on the pill. It happens more than you think.

If you think of the fact that humans are sexual creatures, and that it's one of our main drives, along with the fact that all it takes is ONE screw up and, boom, game over.

The emphasis should be on education of birth control and responsibility, laws can't educate or change moral choices. Education and knowledge does.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by paxnatus
 
I gave you a S&F yet I see this thread becoming another pro/anti kill tiny, beautiful,baby thread.
(betcha can't guess which way I lean)



But this does illustrate the disregard Obama has for human life.


No it doesnt. It shows his respect for US law. A law he had absolutly nothing to do with writing. I have three beautiful babies. I dont make this choice for myself but I damn well agree that a woman has the right to decide what happens within her won body.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by PaxVeritas
 


I just have to say that I LOVE seeing a Ron Paul supporter address this. You're all right, no matter what Skeptic Overlord says about you.



I'm Pro Choice/Pro Gay Marriage/Agnostic/Ron Paul supporter.

We're out there. LOL



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by PaxVeritas


I'm Pro Choice/Pro Gay Marriage/Agnostic/Ron Paul supporter.

We're out there. LOL

And yet \I get called a Liberal 30 times a day.

Take care, we are out there.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by PaxVeritas
 


feeling pain is subjective, so asking for empirical proof of anyone, let alone a fetus feeling pain is somewhat impossible. If the fetus cries or makes some sound that resembles crying id say that is your proof.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
Then I say to you that these women should have been medically sterilized so as not to have had the opportunity to conceive.



All newborn male babies should have a mandatory Vasectomy before leaving the hospital. Only to be undone when they are able emotionally/physically/financially to support and raise a child.


Indeed. I dont want to get offtopic, but I do think this would be a much better alternative than complete reproduction anarchy. Even more so in undeveloped areas of the world, where the crime (!) of irresponsible reproduction is rampant and causes much suffering.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by PaxVeritas
 


feeling pain is subjective, so asking for empirical proof of anyone, let alone a fetus feeling pain is somewhat impossible. If the fetus cries or makes some sound that resembles crying id say that is your proof.


Agreed.

Does a fetus or zygote within the first few weeks of pregnancy...."cry"?

Is it aware? Does it even have an autonomic nervous system developed?

Has it developed the nerve cells which feel pain?

I mean, it's a 'life'. But so is a tumor in a way. And I don't say that to sound cold, just scientific.

For someone to call it a 'baby' is an appeal to emotion. We have to answer these things scientifically or else it's just circle jerking between Pro Lifers and Pro Choicers based on an emotional level. And we know that never goes anywhere.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 03:44 PM
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Foetii in first trimester do not have brains developed enough to feel any pain. First signs of any brainwaves is no sooner than 5th month of pregnancy. It is not possible to feel anything before this time.

Most abortions happen early.
edit on 24/1/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)



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