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The system is broke, but if you're on 'Some Form Of Government Benefit' then you're a 'mooch'

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posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 01:27 AM
Yep, if you're on some form of government benefit, no matter what your circumstances apparently, then you are a 'mooch' (aka sponge, bludger or freeloader).

This is the poorest framed argument I have read on ZH. Either TD did a poor explanation of his position, or he is just lashing out with propaganda commentary that is bound to be provocative. It's sad really, because there are probably a lot of people who read and actively participate in his blog trying to make sense of their own situation, in an otherwise tight job market, who at no fault of their own, might need to access welfare services to remain with a roof on their head and food to eat (could be asking for too much). Now I do acknowledge there are indeed people who sponge of the system, I'm not disputing that.

But comments like this, as are many others similarly, fail to discriminate between those groups of people who are bludgers and those who are readily seeking to become independent of welfare, by either finding a job or more hours of employment. Lumping everyone into the same category is only going to stir and provoke people to react with anger as many of these people are not willingly sitting about idle all day but want to get out of their unfortuante situation. I speak from experience, and I work full-time now. But when I was unemployed and being demonized for it, it was beyond frustrating and annoying, and sometimes very depressing. As such I tend to feel for people who are going through similar experiences.

I see that as financial conditions deteriorate for many people, commentary like this is only going to ferment civil unrest and 'class warfare' as it is sometimes labeled. It's certainly is not going to help the situation. I often see such commentators backpedal, saying "I didn't mean to include those who are genuinely looking for a job' or similar, with their sweeping judgment. Well how hard is it then to remove the ambiguity (its not that hard if you can construct a couple of simple sentences, and certainly if you can articulate an inflammatory argument ) and make it otherwise clear? No, its more like the clear intention is to provoke and agitate, or otherwise whinge and whine in protest against others.

United Welfare States of America: In 2011 Nearly Half The Population Received Some Form Of Government Benefit

While politicians may debate whether or not America is the most "generous" (with other generations' money of course) socialist welfare state in the history of mankind, the undoctored numbers make the affirmative case quite clear and without any chance for confusion. The single most disturbing statistic: in 2011 nearly half of the population lived in a household that receives some form of government benefit, which in turn accounted for 65% of total federal spending, or $2.5 trillion, and amount to 15% of GDP. And yet some people out there still think these people, long since indoctrinated to do little but mooch off the welfare state (which will continue subsidizing its existence so long as debt rates are so low that the government can issue trillions each year without fears of consequences) will halt their iTunes purchases, will voluntarily stop subsisting on the government's teat, or will rebel against a government which is their only source of income? Why? Especially since something tells us that there will be a peculiar overlap between this 50% and the 50% of Americans that pay zero taxes.

edit on 23-1-2012 by surrealist because: spelling

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 01:44 AM
I am with you on that!

I happen to be someone with a good paying job, all the hours I want, and in no need of assistance. But with that, I know I am one of the lucky ones. Many people I know cannot find a job that pays enough money to support their family. Foreclosed homes are the norm around here and also are homeless people (never made much sense to me). People are also moving away from my community to find work. A few have found work, but many of those people haven't. Yes, I count my lucky stars

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 01:57 AM
Comments like that are best summed up as simple minded and naive. I really wouldn't be surprised if the guy making those comments probably has never been poor (and probably even had priveleges they didn't), because i'm pretty sure you would have to be pretty out of touch with the poor to make a comment like that about them.

Then again, he could be saying that to be appeal to the kind of people who believe those comments (idiots).

edit on 23-1-2012 by technical difficulties because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 01:57 AM
reply to post by surrealist

Tell Me about it. Being an old lady in this hellatious job market is a severe disadvantage. I have applied to about 50,000 jobs since I was laid off six years ago. I compete with 50-100 20- and 30-somethings (and 40-somethings...) for every job I apply to. I have the added disadvantage of requiring a desk job as I have a rheumatological condition that precludes Me standing 8 hours a day asking if You want fries with that. (1/2 hour on My feet is painful. 8 hours is excruciating and I can't get out of bed the following day.)

All I have is food stamps. And I hate the negative energy I feel when I pay for food with the benefits card. Like I'm mooching. Like the many years of paying in mean nothing. Like I haven't been beating My head against a wall trying to find work.

But I am out to fix the system...or rather make it moot, because all forms of money are unnecessary with free energy - which I know exists - added. For more on this, search ATS for "electrogravitics Amaterasu." I would link but I have reasons not to.

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 02:06 AM
Yes, but you should somehow find a way to pull more money and work hours out of your butt because that's the American way.

You should find some way to not be on the county, even if you have to work 70 hours a week and never see your kids or family. Why? Because we're America, and you should pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And if you're like a lot of people and your bootstraps have been cut, you should take off your shirt and use it as a rope!

If you can't eat, you should grow a vegetable garden in the concrete. If you can't afford shelter, you'll just have to go live in a crack house.

Why? Because you can't be on the government dole no matter how unrealistic it is for you to survive while you're off of it!

You've got to do everything on your own because I'm not responsible for you! Because I am completely unaware of how your survival actually really does have a large amount to do with my own because we live in a society!

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 02:10 AM
You guys are missing the point on such a major level.

No one (I should say most rational people) don't want people to starve or be thrown out on the street. When people talk about this we are talking about cutting back the size and scope of these programs by eliminating the need for them. Not by simply doing away with them.

Unfortunately, because of the way we've taught people lately, there are those who would rather live off the government tit than make their own way. No one is advocating (again most) throwing these people to the wolves, we are suggesting we work to fix the problem rather than prolong it.

Personally I'd much rather someone help me find a way to provide for myself and my family then have them do it for me.

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 02:15 AM
It amazes me, how some people think it is so easy.. I know first hand it' not. I'll say this right now. I have it lucky. If it wasn't for my dad, I'd probably wouldn't have even made it this far. Get off your high horse.

I do agree that some people do take advantage of the system. But there are some people, who do work, put in hours of work for a non pay, bust their butts in school, to just, try to get ahead. Sorry, but these people, are not moochers.

The ones sitting on their arses do nothing all day are moochers.
edit on 23-1-2012 by Manhater because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 02:15 AM

Originally posted by nyk537
Personally I'd much rather someone help me find a way to provide for myself and my family then have them do it for me.

Yes , the old teach a man to fish, instead of give him a fish.

Problem is , the economy is fished out.

It takes a lot of pride swallowing from people who have no choice but to use the assistance.

Then to be Labeled from a distance by people who have not walked in their shoes.

Very frustrating and disheartening.
edit on 23-1-2012 by Tw0Sides because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 02:18 AM
reply to post by Tw0Sides

The people who honestly need the assistance and have zero alternative are not being labeled. It's the people who abuse the system and continue to feed off it rather than try to improve their circumstance that get labeled.

And there are plenty of jobs out there...most people just don't want them or feel they are too "good" for them.

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 02:39 AM
reply to post by nyk537

Or they're not qualified enough because that position that really only needs a year of experience and an Associate's to do now requires a Bachelor's and 3-5 years' experience. I mean, I've seen people demanding a 4 year degree for a secretary job.

Or they're overqualified (aka old).

McDonald's had a job fair about a year back with 50k positions and had a million applicants. That should tell us something.

No, no there aren't plenty of jobs. There really, really aren't. And a million applications to work at McDonald's should be a huge signal that there are plenty of people willing to shuck their buns if they could find work.
edit on 23-1-2012 by AnIntellectualRedneck because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 02:45 AM
I have no allegance to this country what so ever. Everything our gandparents fought and worked for has been taken away from us. My grandfather was at Omah Beach Normandy in WW2. My grandmother hand built parts that went on the bombs that were dropped on Japan. They busted thier ass give thierselves and decendents a better future.

There are over a billion cell phones in the world and not one of them is made in the United States. You have workers for a Microsoft company in China threatening mass suicide because of working conditions. Apple is openind manufacturing plants in china that creat more jobs at one plant then the US can create in months.

I collect foodstamps and I don't give a damn what rich people think. The American people have been sold out so giant corperations can increase thier bottom line. It's nothing more then greed.

Henry Ford once believed in America. He decided to pay his workers a unpressidented $5 a day. At the time he though if he paid them a living wage they would buy the cars they built and he was right.

I once made $16 and I thought it was great to be an American until my job was shipped over seas. Now I'm luckey to get $8 an hour working at Walmart. With the cost of driving all that does is give me enough money to get to work. [SNIPPED] this country I would rather sit on my rear and collect foodstamps. I refuse to be a slave so someone else can get rich from me breaking my back.

edit on 23-1-2012 by wantsome because: (no reason given)

edit on Mon Jan 23 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because: removed many, many
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posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 03:10 AM
reply to post by wantsome

Amen. I agree completely. And that's what keeps me up at night sometimes in anger. My dad has worked his butt of my entire life, saving companies millions of dollars and being an awesome employee. What does it get him? The next lay-off is always just around the corner. He's had 5 jobs in the past 3 years.

Corporations have zero loyalty, and since the government is run by corporations, the government has zero loyalty, either.

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 03:15 AM
reply to post by surrealist
I believe that the focus is all wrong.

The system is broke.
Yes, yes it is.

But if you're on assistance, you're a mooch.
Um, who cares?

The point is, you're not focused on why the system is broke. Your focus is on what names and labels people are placing on you.

It's actually 2 different things.

1. A broken system.

2. Being labeled a mooch.

Now 1. (the broken system) can be addressed in a number of ways. Self-employment, changing a certain lifestyle, changing socio-economic levels, education, training, moving, etc.
It's a topic for grand discussion.

As for #2? Ultimately, who gives a tinkers damn what other people call you? Is society so insecure that we have to worry about what other people think? Even conservative snots like myself? Really. What does it matter what I or anyone else thinks?

So, ultimately, what does anyone want to talk about?
Or work.

I'll wait.

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 03:24 AM
im gona bit my toe here and say that its prob Ireland that has the best social welfare in the world. currently(as in it was better before now) its €188 per week for unemployed, on top of that you can get: €20 p/w fuel allowence during winter, claim for child think another €20 p/w or there abouts, rent allowence up to €75 p/w, their may be more but cant think of it. also if you are a foreigner in Ireland, a non - irish person. you can claim all the above + (PLUS) €50 social money, €12 or €15 p/w for dog allowence, €10 p/m for getting your hair cut, and im sure there is more i can think of.

so thats about ~ €300 p/w for irish
and about ~ €330~340 p/w for non-national

depending on your cercumstances(spl) that would be the average p/w.
BUT, there are also many family's not getting near that, many people with electricity turned off, struggle to put food on the table and cloth their family. not to mention of you were self-employed before and lost your job, you are entitled to NOTHING!!!

basicly you earn more if your on social welfare than you do for most average jobs now days. its unreal/outdated
and is crippling our country!

edit on 23/1/12 by scoobyrob because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 03:35 AM

Originally posted by beezzer

Now 1. (the broken system) can be addressed in a number of ways. Self-employment, changing a certain lifestyle, changing socio-economic levels, education, training, moving, etc.
It's a topic for grand discussion.

Self-employment: Which most people actually lose money on rather than gain or don't have any idea how to start or have to get so many permits and can't afford it
Changing a certain lifestyle: which lots of people have probably tried but you've got to have shelter
Changing socio-economic levels: which you can't just magically freaking change socio-economic levels
Education/training: which means taking a huge risk racking up debt with little guarantee of it working. you're gambling with your future, especially since you can't bankrupt out of student loans.
Moving: realistically, you can't do that without money or unless you're lucky enough to have family/friends that can put you up.

Everything that's actually feasible for most people is really just a huge gamble. People so poor that they're on welfare don't have the luxury of gambling like that most of the time.

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 03:47 AM
reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck

Life is gamble when you don't stack the odds in your favour.
You're quick to point out the negatives.

Why not the positives?

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 04:04 AM
reply to post by beezzer

Because I grew up shirt-tail poor, and know people "on the county". And I know now that it was a terrible, terrible mistake for me to take the gamble of education and training to try to escape that. If the best gamble of all was a terrible mistake for me and many people that I know, the other, bigger gambles are likely a bad idea.

You talk about life being a gamble when you don't stack things in your favor. The reality is that the deck is stacked against most of us from day one.

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 04:08 AM
reply to post by technical difficulties

It's easier for some people to trash the poor because it masks the fact that some lack empathy for others and they like to inflate their egos.

I know people who are struggling to find a full-time job with benefits. They survive from temp job to temp job and still can't get a foothold.

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 04:10 AM
reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck

I bet he had to fire some people as well that are probably struggling to find work as we speak.

You can kiss up to the boss all you want but the bottom line comes first.

posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 04:44 AM
Classic misdirection.
The biggest mooches of the system by far are a handful of banks (Godless-sachs,etc)
They are reason there is not enough money to help the average person anymore.

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