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How to move 7,000 Ton Blocks Of Granite

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posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
reply to post by Hanslune
 


Yes, and as mentioned in your link, the wood used in these early zeppelins were laminated wood products or plywood, structurally superior to timber, which would allow for smaller-sized spars and the like (each ply with it's alternating grain and glued together), and those were still found to inherently weak for general use.

Another consideration is where would you attach a 7,000 ton point load on such a frame? The frame would have to be built like a space frame or tensegrity frame to handle such a load without pulling itself apart under such a load. Not that ancient builders ever dealt with anything near 7,000 tons - the heaviest AFAIK are the 800 ton trillithons in Baalbek. This whole argument is moot since there's nothing in the archeological record that comes close to supporting this idea.


Yeah even advanced (for the time) Duraluminum was also not strong enough to stand up to storm winds, wood wasn't even close.

Yeah the OP mentions 7,000 tons but then doesn't address it - did they mean 2,000? or wha




posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 02:52 PM
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Great post.
wonderful idea.
but I have never seen any sign of a way to tie a rope to a obelisk.
but they may have just tied them to the ground.
and one big balloons is to dangerous.
lots of small ones is safe.



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 02:57 PM
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Lol I would very much like to see the "mathematics" the OP claims he has done as I never saw any in his original post.

Should be fun.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
A 'timber-framed' half-mile long zeppelin? The mind boggles at the absurdity. Things you're obviously not considering in your massive, weighty, timber-framed zeppelin:

1. The use of timber framing - Ever see a timber-framed barn? Or an medieval timber-framed home? You think something like that would ever float by wrapping it in gauze fabric and pumping it full of hydrogen?


The first German Zeppelins actually held the gas in thousands of pigskin bags, most, little bigger than handbags which were then bundled together. As far as timber-framing goes, I've actually done back of the envelope calulations. The lift is way below that of the German Zeppelins, but still feasible with a structure way, weay bigger than the German ones of the British R100 series.


Originally posted by Blackmarketeer

2. Fasteners for wood joints (nails, bolts, or rope lashings)? King Tut's workers were the first to ever use metal nails in AE and he lived long after the pyramid phase.

3. Rope - ancient rope making revolved around animal or plant fibers and hand wove - it lacked appreciable tensile strength and weighed a great deal. The longest ancient rope was used by Xerxes in Persia, a 1-mile long rope that was 2 feet in diameter. Such a rope alone would weigh tons.


Rope indeed would not have the strength...but Amazon vine WOULD HAVE!


Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
4. Hydrogen production - an advanced science - your hypothesis would have us believe ancient builders possessed this science but not advanced metallurgy, chemistry, or mechanical devices? They leapfrogged over all that and went straight to hydrogen production?


Salts and chemical residue left in the Queens Chamber clearly points to the production of hydrogen. ANother author suggested that it was for creating microwaves to communicate with other world, but, using Occam's Razor, I would suggest that they simply used it for lifting stuff and to burn for light and simple propulsion.

The AE have left plenty of stone carvings and painted walls of workers - hundreds if not thousands - tugging on thick wooly hand-made ropes or using massive timber levers to push and pull their megalithic stone blocks around, you would think that if they had used a half-mile long blimp, the sheer spectacle of such would have garnered at least one bas-relief made to memorialize the event.


Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
But just to play along, let's say they did somehow build this giant zeppelin - how many could they realistically operate at a time? One, maybe two?


I actually did the time and motion calculation for two Zeppelins, one filling at the site and one delivering. Each voyage would have been a week to fly there and unload and a week to fly back and refill. It is curious that it works out exactly one week each way and that this is now our own standard unit of time.

Using two machines, my time and motion analysis came up with a very approximate time of 21.6 years to complete the pyramids.



It would take all day to coordinate the use of such a lifting device, as opposed to dozens, if not hundreds of stone-hauling teams each loading a stone block on a sled, attaching it to an oxen team, and dragging it to a prescribed location.


Not at all, you drop the stones directly into place where you want them, you do not shilly-shally around with ox carts.

The larger the blocks of stones that they would have used, the faster the unload/load times and the more stable the load.
edit on 24-1-2012 by ballisticmousse because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 12:14 AM
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Regarding wood, I am not suggesting just using Egytian wood, but given such Zeppelins, there would have been no reason not to suppose that they could not have brought it from the Amazon or even from North America, such as using pine.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 12:20 AM
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Regarding winds, check out the trade/perpetual winds across the world.

All the stone circle site in Europe are where the trade winds FROM North America arrive in Europe.

All the South American pyramids are where the trade winds FROM North Africa/Mediterranean zone arrive in Central and South America.

Using these winds, a large Zeppelin would be able to move in a giant loop (if not actually more convenient than moving material) across the face of the globe and it would actually be useful to pull stone FROM America, "refuel" the buoyancy at the stone circles for the flight over the Alps and for a lightweight dash back across the Atlantic to Central America using the winds from Africa.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 12:33 AM
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Originally posted by ballisticmousse
Regarding winds, check out the trade/perpetual winds across the world.

All the stone circle site in Europe are where the trade winds FROM North America arrive in Europe.

All the South American pyramids are where the trade winds FROM North Africa/Mediterranean zone arrive in Central and South America.

Using these winds, a large Zeppelin would be able to move in a giant loop (if not actually more convenient than moving material) across the face of the globe and it would actually be useful to pull stone FROM America, "refuel" the buoyancy at the stone circles for the flight over the Alps and for a lightweight dash back across the Atlantic to Central America using the winds from Africa.


Ah you are forgetting that the Meso-American Pyramids were built thousands of years after the pyramids of AE and Sumer.

You are forgetting the need for maintenance, motive power and a base, either a mooring mast or hanger to hold the airship- hurricanes would have been horrid to a 'zeppelin'. In your world what is the motive power of these Zeppelins?




Salts and chemical residue left in the Queens Chamber clearly points to the production of hydrogen.


Please explain how this would have worked and why later European production didn't produce Hydrogen inside a large mass of limestone blocks 'sealed' with gypsum mortar ?
edit on 24/1/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 12:33 AM
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ALL the Ancient Civilizations of North America fall EXACTLY within the boundaries of where the west-bound trade winds blow across the Atlantic.

Likewise, ALL the Stone Circles of North West Europe fall EXACTLY within the boundaries of where the east-bound trade winds blow across the Atlantic.

For something as large as a 0.5 mile long, primative, leaky Zeppelin, these prevailing trade winds would have absolutely critical.Just consider you are on a leaky Zeppelin which has managed to struggle across the Atlantic on a world where there is no GPS, no maps and the locals have no idea where they are...and your journey ahead will take you over the Alps where a single wrong turn will spell disaster in a flaming disaster. My theory is that Stonehenge etc would represent, in effect a servicing centre for these Zeppelin. Not only would it provide electricity supply for hydrogen and repairs, but also by being aligned with stars etc that they are familiar with, it would allow the ονε to know where he is and calibrate both his chronometers and guidance systems.

Consider, when Richard Branson flew across the Atlantic by balloon, where did he come down? Ireland. You are an Ancient Alien moving vast tonnage onboard a leaky Zeppelin where do you across Ireland. And where would you need to stop for servicing Ireland... or, if you are off course, anywhere across Atlantic facing north west of Europe... whιch is exactly where these stone circles are found, which are rarely found elsewhere.

Occam's Razor massively would support a simple practical means like Zeppelins as opposed to one needing highly contentious "spiritual" concepts like telekinesis.

THE MATHEMATICS....

The original Hindenburg had a total lift of 242.2 tons, but the superstructure (weighing 130.1 tons) reduced the GROSS LIFT to just 112.1 tons.

However, the Hindenburg was constructed of iron and steel and had comprehensive passenger decks. If these are removed and it was made of expensive heavy hard wood, such as that from South America, it would still reduce the superstructure weight by at least 50%, and would have reduced the superstructure weight to 65.05 tons. This would then have given it a GROSS LIFT of 195.15 tons.

The main avenue at Copan is 0.6 miles long. This compares with a lerνgth of the Hindenburg of 803 feet. So, if Copan was used to construct a 0.5 mile long wood-framed airship, the vehicle would have been 2640/803.8 bigger in each direction to stay in aerodynamically the same proportion. This would give it 35.43 times the gorss lift.

The GROSS LIFT of such a machine would then be 6,914 tons per trip.

The Greeks record that it took 20 years to build the pyramids.

The stone from the pyramids mainly came from a quarry 500 miles away.

Driven by turboprop engines, at 85miles per hour, this would have taken the Hindenburg 6 days to get there one way.

Assuming that it took one day to unload and one to load, this would create a seven day working week (sound familiar) and each round trip would have taken 14 days to complete.

The computes as 522 trips per machine.

522 trips of 6,914 tons is 3,602,252 tons over 20 years.

As the total weight of stone in the pyramids is about 5.9 million ton, the Ancient Egyptians would have needed just TWO such machines, working in team with one loading stone at the quarry as the other unloads at the pyramids

One stone delivery by a Zeppelin a week.

Is this unreasonable?



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 12:42 AM
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Regarding stone circles, it is interesting to note the following...

- They are all located where the trade winds from North America stop.
- They are invariably magnetic.
- Some have lintels which are invariably capable of supporting the weight of a horse.
- They often have "ductworks" they run from the main circle to a smaller one.
- They are invariably near water.

The idea is that ancient stone circles were dynamos which ahd to be built on a grand scale due to the weediness of the magnetism in the stones.. By putting a horse on the top of the lintels and having it run around in a circle, pulling a copper wired block in the middle in a circle, it becomes possible to generate electricity. This could have been used to feed either to smaller stone circles where engineering could have been done or to feed into marsh or salt water to generate hydrogen.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 12:42 AM
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reply to post by ballisticmousse
 


Where did they get a turboprop engine from?

The quarries for Giza pyramids, for the bulk of the limestone, were right next to the building site. Most Mayan and Meso-American sites had multiple quarry sites within a kilometer....so not really understanding why you think zeppelins are need?

You also pointed out another big problem - navigation

You are also assuming 'international' cooperation - a rather wild call at that time

Don't forget that there were no pyramids in meso-America at the time of the Giza pyramids being constructed


edit on 24/1/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 12:48 AM
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Incidentally, here's a curious coincidence. The small nearby circle down by the river was dismantled by the Ancient Britons and moved inside the main circle, JUST BEFORE THE SITE WAS ABANDONED.

The impression given to me is that some "bright spark" of a priest thought that the power of the big main circle would be enhanced by combining the two circles. Of course, it did not. It just trashed it. So once the Ancient Britons had totalled their big dynamo, making sure that the small one and the big one became useless, they probably concluded, "Ah, f**k it", slay the priest and left.



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 12:55 AM
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reply to post by ballisticmousse
 



Not at all, you drop the stones directly into place where you want them, you do not shilly-shally around with ox carts.


Sadly stone blocks don't come with convenient crane hooks to attack them to lifting devices. The Romans were the first to employ a mechanical means of attaching their blocks to a rope by a means called the Lewis lifting appliance, which left a tell-tale and distinctive hole in the block. Prior to that, ancient cultures were swaddling blocks in loops of rope and knotted them together, or looping ropes over embosses left protruding from the rough-cut stone - neither of which would have allowed for safe movement of these through the air - not to mention, you would have been prevented from simply 'dropping the stone into place', without first dis-entangling the blocks from all the rope.

The biggest problem with your theory is that it takes a manually intensive task - building a pyramid - and makes it incredibly difficult - by first building a half-mile long, timber-framed hydrogen-filled zeppelin, using stone-age or copper-age technology. And uh, doesn't your theory require the Great Pyramid to be built first, since that is where you are claiming they were producing the hydrogen for their zeppelin?

"We're going to build a pyramid to produce the hydrogen so we can build a zeppelin which we'll use to build a pyramid..."



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 11:16 AM
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Actually, my argument is not circular as I am reasoning a bootstrap process in that hydrogen could have been produced on a small scale in order to create small zeppelins used to make small facilities to make bigger zeppelins used to make even bigger zeppelins etc..



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 12:22 PM
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reply to post by ballisticmousse
 


You're theory has no basis in the archeological record, lacks the science to back it up, and defies common sense... It also seems to be based on an earlier nonsensical theory of Edward Kunkel (circa 1955) and later picked up by Chris Dunn, John Cadman, et. al. as "proof" the Great Pyramid at Giza, and only the Great Pyramid at Giza, was some form of "hydraulic/ram pump" producing, among other things, hydrogen via the Queens Chamber. (you can read about this theory and it's variations here).

Which brings us back to your circular argument - no other pyramid has a Queen's Chamber or internal chambers to act as "pumps" for producing anything, which brings your theory back to the GP at Giza as the only one capable of "producing hydrogen" for zeppelins. If they had to build the GP first, then what use would zeppelins be after the fact?

(please note the heavy use of sarcastic quotation marks throughout this post.)



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by Blackmarketeer
 


It's a nice piece of fantasy but lacking, as Blackmarketeer noted, any basis in reality.....example: where did they get the turboprop engines? lol



posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by ballisticmousse
 


Although I am no expert in the field your thread is about you surely do deserve my flag and star. You really gave the mystery a good thought and that is what should be rewarded.

Therefore I say,....moderator.....please give this man an applause.






posted on Jan, 24 2012 @ 11:59 PM
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My original posting long ago was on legendarytimes.

It is widely thought that somehow aliens must have moved the stones. Whilst my contention still references "turboprop" engines, it might be quite possible to do this with just teams of horses and winds in order to complete on time. The original Zeppelins with turboprop could do the journey in 4 days travelling at 85km/hr. With horse and winds, this would extend it to about 6 days and one day to unload.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 12:00 AM
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Bearing in mind that the Ancient Egyptians used canals/barges, is it so difficult to imagine one of them formulating the idea of a "canal of the skies"?



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 01:21 AM
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Originally posted by ballisticmousse
Bearing in mind that the Ancient Egyptians used canals/barges, is it so difficult to imagine one of them formulating the idea of a "canal oYesf the skies"?


Yes, you are not factoring in material design, known levels of technology, and how such a marvel would never be noted, nor leave any archaeological trace. Horses would not be able to deal with wind. The biggest problem airships and balloons have is the wind - unless you can counter that you have a technology that goes no where quick. Remember sailing ships? They weighted up to 2,500 tons and could move thru the water at up to 13 knots using wind power - now apply that wind affect on a the large side of an airship.



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