Jehovah, Jesus and Michael. What do they have in common?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That's heresy. Angels are created beings, Michael was created by Jesus Christ. He is just an archangel.

I dare say Jesus Christ did not yet exist in the OT story of Creation, and anyway...by that logic, Angels being created beings, that would also include Lucifer/Satan too, would it not? So if God/Jesus created Satan, why doesn't God/Jesus just un-create him, and be done with it? Just asking, you were the one who said it.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

. . . professor Walter J Veith . . .

Who is a Seventh Day Adventist and there is allowed speculation among the members of the church that Michael was Jesus in his pre-incarnation angel form but it is not like an official doctrine that people by default are supposed to believe in.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

He mentioned the fact that protestants in John Wycliffe's time and Martin Luther's Time when if you had asked them who the anti-christ was they would have pointed directly at the Roman Catholic Church, yet now that has for some reason become clouded.

No, not really. Many people still feel the Roman Catholic Church is the corporation of the anti-christ. There are a LOT of defecters...
I was just looking at a website today about it.

Why Catholics are heading for the exits... We have known for a long time that Catholica attracts a disproportionate readership from the sectors of the Catholic Church who have played a significant role in leadership initiatives in the Church over recent decades. This has been confirmed through an initiative that one of Catholica's publishers, Amanda McKenna, initiated earlier this year asking people to send in their stories explaining their disillusion or why they have left or dropped out of supporting the institution. Today's commentary from Amanda seeks to give an overview of the responses she received.

www.catholica.com.au...

reply to post by wildtimes

There are a LOT of defecters...

Right but I did not see in the linked-to article "Reading the Book of Revelation and identifying the Catholic Church as the embodiment of the Beast" given as a reason for having left the church.

As an answer to the statement by Lonewolf in quotes in your post:
Well, yes, but that was before you had the State of Israel in Palestine and owning Jerusalem.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Right but I did not see in the linked-to article, "Reading the Book of Revelation and identifying the Catholic Church as the embodiment of the Beast".

As an answer to the statement by Lonewolf in quotes in your post:
Well, yes, but that was before you had the State of Israel in Palestine and owning Jerusalem.

Sorry, dewey, ya lost me here.
"Reading the Book....Beast"? Was that supposed to be in the article?

answer to the statement by lonewolf in quotes in my post?
oh, okay, maybe you mean you are talking to lonewolf, answering his quotes in the OP.

reply to post by wildtimes

answer to the statement by lonewolf in quotes in my post?
oh, okay, maybe you mean you are talking to lonewolf, answering his quotes in the OP.

You were drawing a connection between that bit from the Op, with an on-line magazine article, and since I was replying to the one, and seeing there is an inferred connection, I replied to that part, too.
Or I missed the point and you were just picking a clause from the OP at random.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Yes, I was pointing out that the OPs thought that the RCC being seen as the anti-christ was "clouded" was inaccurate. The corruption in the RCC is still very much front and center. Just today (also), I was listening to an interview on NPR's "Talk of the Nation" (Neil Conan) with the original exposer/informant of the Boston priest pedophilia problem.
Ten years later, the problem is not just in Boston, but world-wide, and more and more is being exposed.

There were many points made by the host, his guest, and callers, indicating that the Church is very much reluctant to divulge their "files". They (the RCC) have been ordered to pay over $2 billion dollars in settlements so far...and there are still suits pending.

It's a rampant and egregious problem that the Vatican works very hard to keep hidden....

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Yes, the Archangel Michael and Jesus Christ are one in the same, spirit, entity, person, Son of Man and the Son of the Living God!

And, did you also know that, Elijah the Prophet/also known as John the Baptizer and/or Enoch, are also the same entity, spirit and person? These and more, are all the reincarnation of the Saint, Archangel Gabriel!

Gabriel comes to the world in the body of flesh, "first," as a prophet and as the Son of Man, and Harold's by delivering a message and also by preparing the people for the coming of the Lord, Jesus Christ the Chief Prince Michael, of all the Holy Hosts/Angels, in heaven and very soon here on Earth!

therefore, before the presence and coming of our Lord Jesus/Michael, the messenger Elijah/Gabriel, prepares a people/remnant by restoring all things by the words of truth, which are purely the words of Jesus Christ from His father and spoken unto the world as a witness and testimony of all truth, here on Earth, during the Last Days!

Thus, the prophet is a representative of Christ and of our father God, the creator of all heaven and Earth! (And these are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who are mentioned in the book of truth!)

Note: God has a Spouse and she too is the Holy Ghost, who is the Queen Mother in Heaven, but her name and entity is not mentioned in the Holy Bible, because of the people's possibility of idolatry and worship of her, that she remains anonymous for this reason. Because of this sin of idolatry could and will kindle the jealousy and wrath of the Lord God, for the perversion of His Holy Queen, The Mother of the Host!

edit on 12-3-2012 by estimatedprophet because: aditional info!

I'm reading the book on Creation and Chaos by Gunkel, who suggests that Michael is an adaptation of Marduk, the young cosmic warrior/savior god of Babylonian mythology. He also believes that both Daniel, and Revelation are essentially Babylonian in its religio-mythological basis.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Very interesting theory.

Did you know according to Islam, it is said that Christians practice polygamy. It is said that Christians worship God, but incorrectly combine God with a mortal prophet (Jesus) and angel Gabriel to form a paganistic trinity

Lord God = Father
Jesus = Son
Gabriel = Holy Spirit.

Interesting similarity to the op theory.

TextThis reference can be found in Revelations, but revelations calls them the elders and not archangels. edit on 22-1-2012 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by jhill76


Actually the elders you speak of in the book of revelation are not angels but are the 12 patriarchs of the tribes and the 12 decipels of Jesus .

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

That's heresy. Angels are created beings, Michael was created by Jesus Christ. He is just an archangel.

I dare say Jesus Christ did not yet exist in the OT story of Creation, and anyway...by that logic, Angels being created beings, that would also include Lucifer/Satan too, would it not? So if God/Jesus created Satan, why doesn't God/Jesus just un-create him, and be done with it? Just asking, you were the one who said it.

Wrong , Jesus was the tree of life in the garde of Eden , the word trees was a metaphor for people's . Satan was the tree of knowledge of good and evil .

reply to post by Sahabi

 

By, EstimatedProphet! . . . . . . .

Very interesting theory.

Did you know according to Islam, it is said that Christians practice polygamy. It is said that Christians worship God, but incorrectly combine God with a mortal prophet (Jesus) and angel Gabriel to form a paganistic trinity

Lord God = Father
Jesus = Son
Gabriel = Holy Spirit.

Interesting similarity to the op theory.

The Islamic people, "Muslims," do the same thing here on Earth and in their religious practices and belief systems, they worship the radical false prophet Muhammad and his racial counterpart, or should I say counterfeit Elijah Muhammad!

Muhammad could never, ever compare to Jesus Christ and what the Sovereign Lord did and will do in His Second coming!
(The truth is, that Muhammad is not in heaven, but in hell for using the Lords name in vain in his false teachings and for the manipulation of a great people through deception and lies. Truly the work of both Muhammad's are of the devil/Satan!)

edit on 13-3-2012 by estimatedprophet because: ats err!

reply to post by estimatedprophet


Although I do study it, I am not a follower of any religion. I was only providing an ideology similar to the opening post.

Elijah Muhammad and 'The Nation of Islam' are not recognized as Muslim by any Sunni or Shia school of thought. 'The Nation is Islam' is a combination of Islam, Christianity, Science, and Black Separatism-Superiority.

'Islam' and 'Nation of Islam' are completely different from each other.

May Peace be upon you.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

The "professor" is obviously a Jehovah's Witness. First of all, no, Jehovah cannot be the Father, because that is a made up name. No, Mikha'el (Who is like unto God? which has always been understood as rhetorical question) cannot be the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is God's spirit which is not a messenger (Angel). If you read Revelations 12 you will see that in the war in Heaven, Mikha'el casts Satan out of Heaven, but he and the Lamb are depicted separately.

The Trinity is not some man-made doctrine, it's totally apparent throughout scripture. Scripture says the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God, it says God is one, Elohim denotes a plurality, and the Angels cry Holy thrice before the Throne of God. What separates God from an idol? He has breath (spirit) and Word (action). The Word has it's source in The Father, but is separate in person, and subordinate in action (the Son when united to Human Nature): "So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it"(Isaiah 55:11). Furthermore, the Trinity has manifested Himself, atleast twice from what I can remember. Once to Abraham, with the three men, one was God, and again at Christ's baptism where the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove, and the Father said "this is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased". Three persons, one essence. The last point that I think really drives this home is that the Bible describes God as merciful, just, and long suffering, but none of these describe Him in an ontological way. Mercy cannot exist in of itself, there must be a wrong committed for you to have mercy and forgive, there is no justice without wrongdoing, and no long suffering without a wayward creation. However, the Bible says "God *IS* love", love is unconditional and is therefor the ontological and most perfect state of the Most High God. Three persons in one essence in love eternal in relation to creation. Love cannot exist in a singularity. God can be loving toward creation, but if He was a singularity, then He could not be love, because there was a time when creation was not and therefor there would have been nothing to love. There was never a time when Christ was not, nor the Trinity unestablished. This is the Faith that has established the Universe.

reply to post by estimatedprophet


No, the Queen Mother is the Theotokos(God-bearer) the Virgin Mary. She is also not God's spouse in the sense you are thinking of. Read Psalm 45 (there's more but I can't remember them) and then Revelation 12.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Michael is not preform Christ because scripturally, Christ has been from the beginning. Nothing that was created was created without Christ. Christ is pre-Michael. (john 1:1-3)

Michael himself would not accuse satan over moses body but left it up to the Lord Jesus if you would believe it. (Jude 1:9)

As far as Michael, a ministering spirit (heb 1:14), being the Holy Spirit our Comforter by which mankind now has access to via Jesus goes: The Holy Spirit who makes known to us love, joy, self-control, kindness, peace, patience, goodness, gentleness, and faithfulness.....The same Holy Spirit which fell on Jesus like a dove being baptised in the Jordan? Michael in no way is The Holy Spirit and should not be worshiped as such. He, Michael, is a created being like gabriel and ariel, and all those other angels named by Enoch.

These theories are not so fascinating in light of the truth of scripture. Finding out hidden knowledge is fascinating but at the expense of truth, knowledge only puffs itself up and is good for nothing but confusion.

Quote by, kallisti36

 

Reply response by, EstimatedProphet

 

No, the Queen Mother is the Theotokos(God-bearer) the Virgin Mary. She is also not God's spouse in the sense you are thinking of. Read Psalm 45 (there's more but I can't remember them) and then Revelation 12.

No, that is a major negative on your part and on the Catholics and whoever else believes that Mary is the queen mother of heaven, because she is not!
The Lord God is not going to risk bringing his Queen into the world to be defiled by another man. In fact Mary is only a "Saint" and nothing more, just like any other servant of the Lord and she is not the Queen.

This is why Jesus would refer to her as, "woman" rather than mother, because he new in His heart/mind that she was not the actual spiritual mother of His creation/being!
And the women Mary was a virgin up to the point until she gave birth to Jesus.
After the birth of the Lord Jesus, she conceived and gave birth to other children.
Therefore, after Jesus was born into the world, she was no longer a virgin.

Remember how the spirit of the Savior was planted into her miraculously, because she was worthy and chosen to carryout the will of God as a humble servant, and in-order to bring the fulfillment of scripture to pass!
All the teachings about the Virgin Mary are false and they are misguiding the people from the truth, which I am speaking about here.

These religious systems are to corrupt the true spiritual faith of the Lord by introducing their false believes and ideas, inflaming the wrath of the Lord God, to bring all these religious systems and beliefs of man to nothing, from His great wrath and decreed destruction's upon them!

About these scripture, verses, they do not apply to this matter!
Psalm 45 - Is a wedding song to the Lord God, Jesus. This is what it says in verse seven, about the concerning of the Lord. Therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions.

Revelation 12 - The Woman in Revelations, has many symbolic and figurative meaning, to this vision. Therefore the woman in Revelation 12 represents, the Queen Mother giving birth to the baby Christ.
(Not necessarily the woman, Saint Mary, but the true Holy Mother of Christ!)

The Woman in Revelations also represents, "The Bride of Christ!"
This woman also represents, all the people/saints who will lay down their lives, by renouncing the world and becoming martyred during the tribulations!

These people/saints will be Martyred in the name of Christ, during the last days, when the governments and worldly leaders, force on the people, their "New World Order and eradicate this world, and the saints of the Lord!"

The crown of twelve stars, on the woman's head represents, the twelve tribes of Israel that are scattered throughout the earth, and that are mixed with the Gentiles!
The stars represent all the martyrs, who died in Christ, and yet lived, for their faith, and preserved their lives, and saved by their savior and all of their sins where atoned and washed away.
On behalf of their sacrifice, to live forever and ever in the glory and presents of the Lord, for all eternity and for them to resurrect and inherit the Earth forever!

edit on 13-3-2012 by estimatedprophet because: Error on color additive!

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


I know all this, i started a conversation on what the Jehovah's Witnesses have said. I know who Jesus is.

reply to post by kallisti36


He's not a JW, he's a Seventh Day Adventist but he was talking about JW doctrine, not that i believed any of it but i thought it would make an interesting conversation.