As far as i'm concerned,any veteran of the us armed forces who experienced combat,when and if they reach the age of 65,should not have to pay for their heat,food,health care or rent any more, those should all be provided for them and paid for by the state and government who has more than enough money to do so if they really wanted to and when they die,their families should receive the same help...

But instead,we have untold numbers of combat veterans who are physically and mentally sick,who are financially suffering,who are unable to properly aquire heat for their families during winters,who homes are being forclosed, who are being evicted from their apartments,who dont have enough food,who are addicted to drugs and who are homeless...

Not quite sure where you heard that Russian officers shot their men in the heads. The Commisars did the shooting and they were not regular army they were NKVD. They didnt shoot men for no reason they shot them for retreating without permission.

Yes the Russian people are tough. They are tough like a mule is tough. Stubborn as one too. Look at those casualtie figures and you will see the logic of the cold war unfold before you. Notice how the Germans suffed about 4 times fewer casualties as the Russians. For every one German that died he took 4 or 5 Russians with him. NATO knew that the Russian army uses weight of numbers to acheive gains. NATO knew that western tech would need to be far more survivable and destructive than WARSAW PACT systems. Even then the vast numbers of the Russians would most likely have to be tactically nuked to break up troop concentrations. its what lead to that build up and massive defense spending. If it was not done the Russian leaders would have had no regard for sending in waves of troops to conqur Europe.

Russia had 13.88% of its entire poulation killed on the Eastern Front from June 22,1941 through May 9th,1945...In 3 years and 10 months...

And to show just how brutal and horrible that actually is...

The United States had 2% of its entire population killed during the American Civil War from April 12th,1861 through April 9th,1865...In 4 years...

Percentage of total American population killed in World War-II...0.3%

Percentage of total American population killed in Iraq War...0.001%

So in order to more or less equal the Russian death tolls on the Eastern Front,there would have had to have been the equivalent of 7 American Civil Wars being fought simultaneously upon the same areas that it was fought on...For four years...

Originally posted by blocula
I fear the outcome of an all out war between Russia and the United States...

Because one very important factor,all but ignored or not thought of at all,when considering a war between the USA and Russia.Is the fact that for a very long time the Russian people have been forced to endure and have become hardened by massive suffering and death on a scale that the USA simply cannot compare to at all...

The Russian people have lived with misery and death and destruction for so long,its in their blood and its in their dna.The Russians were very tough and resiliant back then before and during World War-2 and they still are now and its in their memories,they see it in their parents and grand parents eyes every day,they hear their war stories all the time and they listen and they learn.....

Russia,World War-1...3,000,000 killed

Russian Civil War...5,000,000 killed

Russia,World War-2...30,000,000 killed

Stalin Enforced Genocide...20,000,000 killed

So in the first half of the twentieth century alone,in less than 50 years,Russia has suffered around 60,000,000 of its people killed...

United States Civil War...620,000 killed

United States,World War-1...120,000 killed

United States,World War-2...400,000 killed

United States,Korean War...35,000 killed

And so in about 90 years,the United States has suffered around 1,000,000 of its people killed...

Thats a 60 to 1 ratio...

The Russian people have been made much more stronger and resiliant than the people of the USA and the Russians would be more able to face and endure a war than people in the USA...

edit on 22-1-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)

Doesn't that show that the Russians are fairly inferior? Because if the Russians are such a strong people they never would of had the losses they had. And the simple fact is, in an all out war the American people would adapt all too well. You have to understand that things don't change much. We might marvel at the American condition, but that condition has always existed in relation to the status of things in Europe and Russia(one of the main gripes that the European governments had with America since the 1800's was the cheap availability of food, land and resources).

Originally posted by starviego
I suspect the 30 million figure was exaggerated for political reasons--to justify the military occupation of Eastern Europe, just like the holocaust number of six million was exaggerated to justify the takeover of Palestine.

Actually, close to 11-17million people died in the Holocaust. Roughly 5 million(3 million Jewish males and 2 million Jewish females) Jewish Europeans died in the Holocaust.

That is the one thing I dislike about people who talk about the Holocaust. They forget everyone else who died in it(the majority where non-Jewish, but Jew's where the singularly largest group).

Originally posted by blocula
And just to mention,notice how the nazis tracked down and killed "Intellectuals",because they were intelligent enough to know what was really going on and would tell others and make too many waves in the nazis genocidal ocean...All Genocides target intellectuals,as well as others

I don't disagree with you, and I am really sorry to split hairs, because really that is all I am doing, but simply for clarities sake. The Holocaust refers exclusively to the organised and systematic genocide of the Jews.

There is also the arbitary genocide of the Slavs, and the nomadic peoples, including the Roma and Sinti. This genocide is the least reported of the two and the one that both the Nazis and the Allied commanders did most to conceal, primarily by allowing those regions worst effected to fall under Soviet control after the war which only further compounded the sufferings of those people, who often freed from slavery in Germany, were liberated only to be sent to a Gulag on return home as an enemy of that state.

In addition you mention the euthanasia programme, though this was rolled into Poland, it was originally implemented in Germany against it's own citizens and with the consent of the population. It was at this time that many countries were practicing mass sterilisation and other forms of eugenic solutions, Germany, as in much else, was simply far more systemised in it's approach. It was the T4 euthanasia programme, that provided the expertise when the camps were set up to provide for the planned mass extermination of the Jews under Aktion Reynhard.

Finally, I think, you mention the political and intellectual prisoners, who are, always, naturally the first to go in any regime change...and as we have seen continuing to the modern day...all threats or competition was too systematically removed from Germany and the occupied territories. The Wehrmacht, and more especially the Einsatzgruppen, and shock troops, were issued with densely printed books, listing each and every 'enemy', their friends and relatives, prior to each invasion, one such was produced for the British Invasion and makes for interesting reading, another for Poland, and yet another for Russia. They were compiled by the SD.

The reason for the demarkation is simple. The Holocaust is the event least likely to happen again. Of the rest, there is always a risk. And indiscriminate violence is far easier to commit and conceal. Choosing who lives and who dies, only leaves potential witnesses and evidence of premeditation, what the Nazis taught us, or them, is that it is far better just to kill everyone and then blame some crazy for the whole thing going tits-up.

Originally posted by korathin

Originally posted by blocula
I fear the outcome of an all out war between Russia and the United States...

Because one very important factor,all but ignored or not thought of at all,when considering a war between the USA and Russia.Is the fact that for a very long time the Russian people have been forced to endure and have become hardened by massive suffering and death on a scale that the USA simply cannot compare to at all...

The Russian people have lived with misery and death and destruction for so long,its in their blood and its in their dna.The Russians were very tough and resiliant back then before and during World War-2 and they still are now and its in their memories,they see it in their parents and grand parents eyes every day,they hear their war stories all the time and they listen and they learn.....

Russia,World War-1...3,000,000 killed

Russian Civil War...5,000,000 killed

Russia,World War-2...30,000,000 killed

Stalin Enforced Genocide...20,000,000 killed

So in the first half of the twentieth century alone,in less than 50 years,Russia has suffered around 60,000,000 of its people killed...

United States Civil War...620,000 killed

United States,World War-1...120,000 killed

United States,World War-2...400,000 killed

United States,Korean War...35,000 killed

And so in about 90 years,the United States has suffered around 1,000,000 of its people killed...

Thats a 60 to 1 ratio...

The Russian people have been made much more stronger and resiliant than the people of the USA and the Russians would be more able to face and endure a war than people in the USA...

edit on 22-1-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)

Doesn't that show that the Russians are fairly inferior? Because if the Russians are such a strong people they never would of had the losses they had. And the simple fact is, in an all out war the American people would adapt all too well. You have to understand that things don't change much. We might marvel at the American condition, but that condition has always existed in relation to the status of things in Europe and Russia(one of the main gripes that the European governments had with America since the 1800's was the cheap availability of food, land and resources).

Actually, just the opposite. At the time of the war, Stalin and the Soviet Union were still undertaking their seven year plans where they were attempting to go from Medieval society to Modern Power in a short time frame. To most Russians at the time, things like tanks and airplanes were like us nowadays in the West facing aliens like in Independence Day (sorry for referencing a rubbish film!). Most farmers there were unfamiliar with things like tractors (although some had them). In all honesty, it is a testament to Russia and its people that the death toll was not far higher.

Another bold and stark way to comprehend the brutality and understand the horror of what 30 million Russian deaths in 3 years and 10 months on the Eastern Front actually means...

The higher end estimates of 12 million russian soldiers and 18 million russian civilians killed on the eastern front during WW-2 between june-1941 and april-1945 are stunning and terrible,almost unimaginable to realize and they equal out to on-average...

30,000,000 russians were killed in 3 years and 10 months on the eastern front...

15,000,000 russians were being killed every 2 years on the eastern front...

7.500,000 russians were being killed every year on the eastern front...

3,700,000 russians were being killed every 6 months on the eastern front...

1,800,000 russians were being killed every 3 months on the eastern front...

600,000 russians were being killed every month on the eastern front...

150,000 russians were being killed every week on the eastern front...

21,000 russians were being killed every day on the eastern front...

7,000 russians were being killed every 8 hours on the eastern front...

900 russians were being killed every hour on the eastern front...

225 russians were being killed every 15 minutes on the eastern front...

Seriously...Think about that...Damn...

For an eye and mind opening comparison,America lost around 58,000 soldiers killed during the Vietnam War,in 13 years,from 1959 when the first american soldiers were killed in Vietnam,through 1973 when United States Troops left the country...