reply to post by dontreally
In what dimension are you referring to? Is this a parallel dimension where Jews and Arabs aren't fighting to the death for sole control of the
land of Israel?
European Jews who migrated to that piece of land around 70 years ago are fighting for exclusive control of the land and they are being resisted, and
rightly so, by the others.
The Palestinians, not in the slightest bit, have come to terms with Israel. That is, I'm sorry to use such strong language, idiotically
absurd. Look at the PLO/Fatah and Hamas. These two groups 'represent' the Palestinian people, and NEITHER acknowledges the Jewish state in its
I never said they accept Zionism. They don't and they shouldn't. You suggested a post-Zionist state and I said that is acceptable to Palestinians. I
have never seen Israel offer a democratic state in the whole of historic Palestine or even the truncated Palestine (that is excluding Jordan from the
historic, Ottoman province, Palestine), which is what I expect a post-Zionist state to look like. So how do you figure that is not acceptable to
You're talking to someone with ample knowledge of this subject.
So are you.
If any party is willing to make peace, it's Israel.
Sure they do. But Palestinians want justice before peace. There is absolutely no justice in accepting a Zionist state of Israel. If Israel ceased
being Zionist, as you are proposing, peace will come automatically. If they don't care to be Zionist, they should have no problem accepting a one
state solution in what is today Israel-Palestine. That
will be the test of their giving up Zionism.
One can argue from multiple perspectives who 'the land' belongs to. If the Jews have no right to it, neither should the
I think I have already seen all these "perspectives".
For 2 millenia the Jews have wandered throughout the Middle East, North Africa, Eastern and Western Europe, landless, without a nation, because
of the sins of today's temporal powers, which derive it political, religious and cultural institutions from ancient Rome and Greece. Has this been
remedied? Has anyone sought to rectify what was done to this people that has gone landless for 2000 years?
I know that Jews were expelled from Jerusalem by the Romans, but don't know of anyone preventing them from returning to Jerusalem, if they so chose,
after the collapse of the Roman Empire. May be you can provide sources for that, if they exist?
The founding premise of the Jewish state is the fact that Jews have NEVER been able to live in peace, aside from the rather placid, though
misleading last 70 years, in their entire existence.
That is not completely true. I know of at least one place where Jews lived in peace without any persecution for all the time they lived there. This
was acknowledged by Ariel Sharon in a visit to that country.
But I do acknowledge that in most of the world where conformist mentality runs supreme, especially Europe, Jews had a very bad time.
But that is not exclusive to Jews. Roma faced and continue to face persecution and prejudice from the rest of the Europeans. But unlike Jews they
don't seem to forever make others feel guilty about what happened to them or continues to happen to them.
Thus, Herzl argued that Jews, like all people, needed a land.
As if land is something that is produced
How about a "homeland" for the Roma? Where are you going to find the land for it?
The people of France live in France. The people of Germany live in Germany.
That's right. But they are the people of
France and Germany, respectively. Meaning people who had already been there with unbroken links to
the past generations of similar people or people who came in peacefully and had been accepted. Their right to live there doesn't come magically from
their speaking a language, having a particular culture, belonging to a faith or claims of having ancestral links to the land but broken by centuries
or even millennia.
The Speakers of Hebrew, and followers of Judaism and carriers of Jewish custom, which despite geographical disparity, are still so much alike,
don't deserve to be reunited with their ancestral home and place of their formation and birth?
That's like asking if the speakers of English, followers of Christianity and carrying the English traditions which despite geographical disparity are
still so mcuh alike, don't they all
deserve to be reunited with their ancestral home and place of formation and birth? Yeah, lets put all the
Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders of English ancestry back in England, because that is what they deserve! (Frankly I don't mind that
in the case of the English though