What Roman Catholicism, Islam, Paganism, the Masons, Knights Templars and Jesuits have in common.

But you see it is the inconsistencies that drove me away. If the bible was the divinely inspired WORD of god there would be no inconsistencies.

So I looked (Googled them I won't lie) for passages that do say Joseph was Jesus' father, Acts 2:30; Acts 13:30; Romans 1:3; 2 Timothy 2:8; Hebrews 2:16; Revelations 22:16.

And for god/the holy spirit being the father, Matthew 1:18 and Luke 1:31-35.

I'm sure some bibles differ in wording. But for the word of god to be so misinterpreted by his prophets is just insane. Either he is a man or god. There are more passages that Jesus was just a man and nothing more. While only 2 that I found to show he was divinely conceived.

This is was a problem for the Early church as well, but I guess having a normal man as you figure head wasn't enough, so the popular vote won and they made Jesus a god in the flesh.

As for Jesus NOT being the messiah; Prophecies: Ezekiel 37:26-28, Messiah to build the 3rd Temple, Isaiah 43:5-6 he was to gather all the Jews back to the land of Israel, Isaiah 2:4 to usher in world peace, Zechariah 14:9 spread the word of God to unite all of mankind.

Embodiment of the Personal qualifications of the Messiah
Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2; Was to be a greater prophet than Moses, he spoke with god face to face. Jesus the God or the man you have to consider which he is at this point. Man or God according to the bible, as the verses above show, like you said, Joseph being the father in some cases while god being the father in others.

Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24: Must be a descendant of David, Now if you say God is the father and he is the result of a Virgin birth, he cannot be from the line of David.

Deut. 13:1-4 He was to lead all the people to full Torah observance, anyone trying to change the Torah is deemed as a false prophet.

Isaiah 7:14
Alma = young woman, and not Virgin

Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn't help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Numbers 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

So these were some of the reasons I had left the church at 13 or 14. All my priest could say was to have faith... that's like having faith in a wet paper towel holding back a stampede.

Engafan

reply to post by Engafan

Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2; Was to be a greater prophet than Moses, he spoke with god face to face. Jesus the God or the man you have to consider which he is at this point. Man or God according to the bible, as the verses above show, like you said, Joseph being the father in some cases while god being the father in others.

The 4th century MSS from Alexandria, Egypt that attack the deity of Christ have Joseph the 'father' of Jesus. The Byzantine text says basically 'Joseph and the boy's mother'.

Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24: Must be a descendant of David, Now if you say God is the father and he is the result of a Virgin birth, he cannot be from the line of David.

Why? Mary's tribe traces back to Solomon's 2nd son with Bathsheba, Nathan.

Deut. 13:1-4 He was to lead all the people to full Torah observance, anyone trying to change the Torah is deemed as a false prophet.

Christ lived and followed the Torah to a T, He mocked and attacked Pharisaical Judaism which had placed the opinions of venerated rabbis and scribes on par with the Word of God.

Isaiah 7:14
Alma = young woman, and not Virgin

What do you think they consider the separating quality of womanhood is to them back then? A young lady was a virgin. In the Septuagint which was translated into Greek 3 centuries before Christ has the word for "virgin" in the text.

Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn't help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Numbers 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

Jesus was adopted by Joseph, who was from the line of Solomon's first son with Bathsheba. He was a legal son of David through Joseph and a blood son through Mary.

So these were some of the reasons I had left the church at 13 or 14. All my priest could say was to have faith... that's like having faith in a wet paper towel holding back a stampede.

Most Seminaries don't have courses in apologetics.

Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Samuel 7:14; I Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6). The third chapter of Luke describes the lineage of David's son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)

Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.

Ok Young woman is a virgin... but that's it. Why did they(early church) feel the need to spice things up a bit and say GOD was the father, because a normal birth isn't all that special now is it? It's church propaganda and a lie, from my view.

reply to post by Engafan

But you see it is the inconsistencies that drove me away.

Drove you to what?
To someone who says things like this?

He was to lead all the people to full Torah observance, anyone trying to change the Torah is deemed as a false prophet.

Which is not what the verses even say.

reply to post by Engafan

Ok Young woman is a virgin... but that's it. Why did they(early church) feel the need to spice things up a bit and say GOD was the father, because a normal birth isn't all that special now is it? It's church propaganda and a lie, from my view.

Because they did not know what we know today, which is where babies come from.
Now we know about In vitro fertilisation.
The point of the Gospel story is that both of Jesus' parents very very good and pious people and for all we know there could be a genetic predisposition for that and if so, something God would have known about and God could have selected the right genes at the right time and put them together for some artificial insemination.
So Jesus could have been the natural offspring of those two, just with a little help from divine intervention.

Deuteronomy 13:1-4
1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

That's what I meant to say, and realize I wasn't clear.

Are you serious? lol people back then didn't know where babies come from? That has to be a joke right? Or do you mean Sperm fertilizing the egg part? I'm pretty sure they figured it had something to do with a man and a woman. Maybe not scientifically but they had an IDEA.

reply to post by Engafan

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

This looks like you are copy and pasteing quotes off an anti-christian blog.
If you are saying you have apostatized from Christianity and converted to Judaism, then have a good time in the Bronze Age, and good luck with all those commandments and keep your throat-cutting knife sharp.

No I didn't convert... but why not address the biblical quotes at hand and discuss those, rather than side track what it is I quoted or where I dug up the quote at hand? Or should the quote itself matter?

You attack Judaism, which is the ROOT of Christianity by telling it's followers they live(mentally) in the bronze age, and that they're murderous by keeping their knifes sharp. for the cutting of throats apparently.
Nice rebuttal.

I want to discuss the passages and their supposed meaning, not what I believe or don't believe. I am simply asking questions in regards to Jesus and the claim that he is the messiah.

Engafan

Originally posted by Engafan
Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Samuel 7:14; I Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6). The third chapter of Luke describes the lineage of David's son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)

Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.

Ok Young woman is a virgin... but that's it. Why did they(early church) feel the need to spice things up a bit and say GOD was the father, because a normal birth isn't all that special now is it? It's church propaganda and a lie, from my view.

Nathan is a son of Solomon. He is his 2nd son with Bathsheba.

Still the prophecy states that the line was to pass through Solomon not Nathan, Bathsheba was Solomon's mother, not his wife.
Nathan and Solomon were the Children of David and Bathsheba
Not enough or too much coffee.

Originally posted by Engafan
Still the prophecy states that the line was to pass through Solomon not Nathan, Bathsheba was Solomon's mother, not his wife.
Nathan and Solomon were the Children of David and Bathsheba
Not enough or too much coffee.

edit on 27-1-2012 by Engafan because: (no reason given)

Not sure why you are missing it but Nathan is a son of Solomon. If the line goes through Nathan is also goes through Solomon.

Nathan and Solomon are BROTHERS... Fathered by David and Bathsheba.

The Line is to pass through Solomon, Solomon's son is Rehoboam, well the only one listed. I don't know what I'm missing.

Originally posted by Engafan
Nathan and Solomon are BROTHERS... Fathered by David and Bathsheba.

The Line is to pass through Solomon, Solomon's son is Rehoboam, well the only one listed. I don't know what I'm missing.

because all offspring of Nathan are offspring of David. Both Mary and Joseph are of the house of David.

Even if they are the descendants of Nathan... The Messiah in the bible that was prophesied in the books of the OT, can only be legit IF they descend from Solomon. According to the scriptures.

That is why I'm arguing that Jesus could not be the Messiah that was prophesied.

Originally posted by Engafan
Even if they are the descendants of Nathan... The Messiah in the bible that was prophesied in the books of the OT, can only be legit IF they descend from Solomon. According to the scriptures.

That is why I'm arguing that Jesus could not be the Messiah that was prophesied.

Where are you getting this idea that the Messiah must come from Solomon and not any other son of David?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Christ lived and followed the Torah to a T, He mocked and attacked Pharisaical Judaism which had placed the opinions of venerated rabbis and scribes on par with the Word of God.

I believe this is incorrect my friend... This is in the torah...


If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives

You should not let a sorceress live.

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.

Among other things...

reply to post by Engafan

No I didn't convert... but why not address the biblical quotes at hand and discuss those, rather than side track what it is I quoted or where I dug up the quote at hand? Or should the quote itself matter?

OK, then you are either one of three things, taking bar-mitzvah classes so you can convert, joined a Messianic Jew cult, or have taken a pledge to be a Noahide.
It makes no sense to argue these points because the argument would only be valid for a Christian and not to someone who as already repudiated Christianity. Go ahead and convert NOTurTypical, Lonewolf, and Superior Ed because I don't like them giving Christianity a bad name and I would rather have them in your camp arguing against Christianity so it will be plain enough their anti-christ nature.

Joseph is a descendant through Jeconiah, Matthew 1:11. Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30 explains why this makes any of his(Jeconiah/Jehoiakim) descendants as cursed and therefore they could never be Kings of Israel, to sit on the throne of David.
So Joseph is out.

As for Mary,
1. Tribal affiliation is traced through the Father and not the mother (Numbers 1:18; Ezra 2:59)
2. II Samuel 7:14; I Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6, Solomon's legitimacy and his descendants.
3. Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.

I have to go to work, I'll try to check back later, glad we could keep this civil, sometimes people tend to throw names and insults at each other.

Have a good day.

Engafan

Originally posted by Engafan
Even if they are the descendants of Nathan... The Messiah in the bible that was prophesied in the books of the OT, can only be legit IF they descend from Solomon. According to the scriptures.

That is why I'm arguing that Jesus could not be the Messiah that was prophesied.

Where are you getting this idea that the Messiah must come from Solomon and not any other son of David?

reply to post by Engafan

. . . and that they're murderous by keeping their knifes sharp . . .

What???
You were criticizing Jesus for not keeping the laws of the Pharisees, so you might want to keep some Torah laws your own self, and sacrifice some lambs and goats and bulls.