Does Zero Exist?

Consider...
"Here's an analogy: Take a piece of bread, with a length of "0"

Solution...

You can't half it both ways... there is not a paradox with half of anything when the answer must be conceptually impossible. You can't divide by 0. That is a flaw in desired results to an abstract observation not a paradox...

Was fun to think about for a few minutes though.

;-P

Originally posted by Opspeculate
Consider...
"Here's an analogy: Take a piece of bread, with a length of "0"

Solution...

You can't half it both ways... there is not a paradox with half of anything when the answer must be conceptually impossible. You can't divide by 0. That is a flaw in desired results to an abstract observation not a paradox...

Was fun to think about for a few minutes though.

;-P

Find me a piece of bread with a length of 0 and we'll talk

OP, take a friggin' calculus course, why don't ya?!?

It's pathetic how many people on this site argue that zero doesn't exist or that 0.999... doesn't equal 1.

And no, I'm not going to explain to you in a post WHY you are wrong - It takes a whole sequence of mathematics course to understand WHY you are wrong, and you are OBVIOUSLY not smart enough to pick up that information in a single post (i.e slice a number in half multiple times).

Originally posted by IrnBruFiend
If you take any number, and keep halving the value, you will never get to zero. This problem in mathematics is most famously known as the Zeno's paradox. Here's an analogy: Take a piece of bread, with a length of 1. Slice it in half and you have 0.5. Slice it in half again and you have 0.25. Slice it in half again and you have 0.125, etc, etc. You will find the number continues on infinitely when halved and will never reach zero. Theoretically, if you keep slicing the piece of bread in half you will never ever cut the whole thing.

Isn't this a fascinating concept?

This makes me wonder what zero really is. Does it really exist at all? Everything in the physical universe must be made out of at least 1 if something. Yes / no? This concept draws parallels with infinity. You can take any number and double it to an infinite degree. Also, you can take any number and half it to an infinite degree. You can never begin with zero; and you can never reach zero. Another example of this can be found in fractals. Below is a visual demonstration of a fractal known as the Cantor set.





What is the smallest thing in the physical universe? Can it be halved? Can it be halved again? If we know what the smallest thing in the universe is, and know it can't be halved for definite, that's fine. Problem solved. Or is it? What are the implications for the subject of mathematics which is (at least what I consider) the purest of all subjects. Math is always correct. Isn't it? If we conclude a particular constitute of a particular can't be halved in the physical universe, does this imply math, being the pure subject that it is, doesn't accurately correlate with the physical universe? What if the smallest constitute of the universe can be halved infinitely? Does this imply infinity is a reality and that mathematics is always pure in our understanding of the universe?


Moreover, I have wondered about the Big Bang theory in relation to this. If there was a Big Bang, does this imply the universe began with 0, or nothingness, into everything more than 1? Furthermore, everything in the universe is made out of energy. The first law of thermodynamics says energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only transit from state to another. Does this imply energy has always existed, and perhaps 0, or nothingness, in the physical universe has never existed? Can zero exist? Is everything created from nothing, or at least 1 of something? Can zero exist and not exist?

In some ways, I am inclined to think infinity is a reality and 0 does not exist. What are your thoughts? Every question must have an answer: Does 0 exist?

edit on 20-1-2012 by IrnBruFiend because: (no reason given)

Zero was made up by a banker. Thats why they like the zero's. More zero's, more money. Even if it is .00000001.

Originally posted by RestingInPieces
OP, take a friggin' calculus course, why don't ya?!?

It's pathetic how many people on this site argue that zero doesn't exist or that 0.999... doesn't equal 1.

And no, I'm not going to explain to you in a post WHY you are wrong - It takes a whole sequence of mathematics course to understand WHY you are wrong, and you are OBVIOUSLY not smart enough to pick up that information in a single post (i.e slice a number in half multiple times).

Your post contributes 0. Maybe it does exist in extenuating circumstances.

Originally posted by cloaked4u

Zero was made up by a banker. Thats why they like the zero's. More zero's, more money. Even if it is .00000001.

Can a moderator mark this thread as [SOLVED]? I think we have figured it out.

Chuck Norris was able to count up to infinity. Twice!

Funny question actually.

Zero = nothing. Nothing = non-existence. But 0 can define a point in existence (geometrically) relative to other numbers, and in that sense it exists.

Counting to 0 from 1: 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4... 1/infinity.

reply to post by IrnBruFiend


0 can be described as some "infinitesimally small amount." After a certain point near infinity, it doesn't matter how much smaller it gets, it is considered zero.

Consider the number 0.999999999999999999999 going on and on forever with 9s.

This number is actually equal to 1, and you might say that the difference between it and 1, is "zero."

How is that number actually 1? Look at this... (in this example, imagine for the .99999999999, the 9's continue on forever)

10.99999999999 - .99999999999 = 10 TRUE
11 - 1 = 10 TRUE

It must be 1, and each number in each 'column' is equal. In the first row, we get 10 because we subtracted everything else after 10. away from 10.99999999999...so we get 10.

It's easier to explain in real life.

Then again...the question becomes, how do we move, if to move, we much go through all points between the one we began at and the one we ended at? The classic Greek question. And, how do we exist? If we exist, we'd take up all the space between our our bodies, which would seem to be infinitely big, but of course it isn't.

There must be certain indestructible 'blocks' which we use to measure, and those would allow us to measure things, otherwise, we'd never get anywhere. What the 'blocks' are, we maybe haven't discovered yet.

Originally posted by IrnBruFiend
If you take any number, and keep halving the value, you will never get to zero. This problem in mathematics is most famously known as the Zeno's paradox. Here's an analogy: Take a piece of bread, with a length of 1. Slice it in half and you have 0.5. Slice it in half again and you have 0.25. Slice it in half again and you have 0.125, etc, etc. You will find the number continues on infinitely when halved and will never reach zero. Theoretically, if you keep slicing the piece of bread in half you will never ever cut the whole thing.

Isn't this a fascinating concept?

This makes me wonder what zero really is. Does it really exist at all? Everything in the physical universe must be made out of at least 1 if something. Yes / no? This concept draws parallels with infinity. You can take any number and double it to an infinite degree. Also, you can take any number and half it to an infinite degree. You can never begin with zero; and you can never reach zero. Another example of this can be found in fractals. Below is a visual demonstration of a fractal known as the Cantor set.





What is the smallest thing in the physical universe? Can it be halved? Can it be halved again? If we know what the smallest thing in the universe is, and know it can't be halved for definite, that's fine. Problem solved. Or is it? What are the implications for the subject of mathematics which is (at least what I consider) the purest of all subjects. Math is always correct. Isn't it? If we conclude a particular constitute of a particular can't be halved in the physical universe, does this imply math, being the pure subject that it is, doesn't accurately correlate with the physical universe? What if the smallest constitute of the universe can be halved infinitely? Does this imply infinity is a reality and that mathematics is always pure in our understanding of the universe?


Moreover, I have wondered about the Big Bang theory in relation to this. If there was a Big Bang, does this imply the universe began with 0, or nothingness, into everything more than 1? Furthermore, everything in the universe is made out of energy. The first law of thermodynamics says energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only transit from state to another. Does this imply energy has always existed, and perhaps 0, or nothingness, in the physical universe has never existed? Can zero exist? Is everything created from nothing, or at least 1 of something? Can zero exist and not exist?

In some ways, I am inclined to think infinity is a reality and 0 does not exist. What are your thoughts? Every question must have an answer: Does 0 exist?

edit on 20-1-2012 by IrnBruFiend because: (no reason given)

0 is a pivot number. It divides. It it not infi ity and doesnt inclide everything.
A creation of the mind, otherwise + and - would run into each other.
We are in fact pretty smart to think of it.
So it os both a pivot, a mathematical concept, and a philosophers object of musing.
The first 2 meanings are solved. The 3rd is up to your preference. For me 0 has always been the calm before the storm.

Thanks for posting OP...star and flag to support your theory. After reading all the comments...I noticed that some people can be so rude. I understand your theory...and it makes sense. Anything is possible in the realm...so even though mathematics says one thing...don't mean that its completely true. At one point we all thought the sun revolved around earth...Einstein taught us about the speed of light...as we go on, we might find out that time travel might be possible even though experts says that it isn't. Look around you...anything is possible. Thanks for being open minded.

If you don't have and take away the whole thing = zero.

It exists.

Originally posted by wavemaker
Chuck Norris was able to count up to infinity. Twice!

It must have scrambled his brains, I hear he supports Romney now.

Maybe zero cannot be described with words. In my best understanding, using words to define it, zero is a place where possibilities exist. Our imagination has limits, perhaps because we try and fit definitions into it using words, which have limits. Zero has no limits, as with infinity. I would best describe it using the word "possibilities." Zero and infinity both are just places where all of the possibilities exist. They are essentially the same place, just looked at from different perspectives. I believe the the universe could fit into this same place. In the act of trying to define it with words you create your own borders, even the imagination has this problem.


Nothing is the true definition of zero am I right? Well when I say, "Nothing exists in the universe in a truly physical way", how would you take that? Eventually everything can be broken down to nothing. Therefore in my understanding the universe is just a place where all possibilities exist, and that is all that we and everything else are, just a possibility. The list of possibilities is limitless.

If there was such a thing as one, then one would never be able to bleed into another. There would be clear and set boundaries. There is no science that proves there is anything that does not bleed into something else in one way or another.

Perhaps, the question of the OP should be. Is there such a thing as ONE?
Or, maybe. Are ZERO and ONE, one and the same?

reply to post by IrnBruFiend


If you have 100$ in your hand, and I smack you over the head, take your 100$ away from you, how much $ have you left in your hand ?

Zero. See ? It's not really that hard my little philosopher.

reply to post by IrnBruFiend


Two points:

One, I don't have a dog. That means I have 0 dogs in my home. Now, if 0 were not a real number, defining the perfect absence of something, then the fact I don't have a dog really isn't a fact, but theory.

Am I supposed to say, "Theoretically, I have no dog...but I can't mathematically prove it"?

And two: I realize truth is highly valuable...but what if it causes more problems than it solves?

also, I would like to state here that the Big Bang is less a theory of where everything came from, than it is a theory on how everything FORMED.

In other words, it isn't a question of "Where did that frog come from", so much as "How did that frog...become a frog?"

TextThis is how i look at zero. Zero is the absolute vacuum. Plus and minus are particles with different charges compared to each other. You can divide + and - up as much as you like, but they will never = the vacuum. Within mathematics.

But within compression and expansion, matter can become vacuum. Matter will become what it used to be.




To a absolute vacuum "zero" all particles are always positive no matter if we see them as negative. A negative charged matter can never be more negative than the absolute vacuum.

Zero is an even number.

Just a thought.

I think that it does. I think it's simply a number value given to the concept of nothing. For example, if I have a loaf of bread and I eat it, then I have 0 loaves of bread, or no bread.

What really boggles my mind is the concept of negative numbers, because how can you have less than nothing?