What the UK does not want Scotland to know about independance, page 5

reply to post by listerofsmeg

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I dont think they will either but whether that is because they value the union or are scared of the unknown if it breaks up needs to be identified.

Feeling poorly used if you have to leave your family and country just to be able to earn a reasonable living is understandable. It is however no different than what happens to those that face the same choice from Newcastle, Manchester, Newport, Cornwall and even deprived areas within London.

To blame 'The English' is simple minded, the easy target. Most of 'The English' are just as oppressed as any Scot, Welsh or Irishman.

Blame the real causes. Those that rule for their own gain, Alex Samon included. If you think he cares whether Scots prosper, fail or remain the same I think you are in for a let down. I could be wrong about him but I very much doubt it.

reply to post by colin42

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Of course the oil companies will be represented, the people who run both England and Scotland will ensure that their interests are looked after first and foremost, everything else will be for public consumption and after much 'tough' negotiation agreement will be found.

Personally I think Scotland is a cracking place and the vast majority of Scots I've met are cracking people.
Sure it's got it's fair share of arseholes but where hasn't ....I mean come on, some English I meet absolutely disgust me and are just one step ahead of pond life on the evolutionary scale.

I really hope Scotland doesn't vote for independance, but it's for Scotland to decide.

I'd like to see increased devolvement of power to all the countries and regions within the UK and a complete overhaul of the electoral and parliamentary procedures, all within a federal union.
That would give true representation and accountability of elected officials, recognition of national and regional differences and priorities whilst maintaining the Union andrecognising all that unites the great people of these great islands.

If anyone has the time this is a great thread which ebbs and flows with all the emotions of this passionate subject, it is a very good read.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

If we maintain the Union then I feel we have more chance of bringing about real and positive change....divided then Scotland will just be replacing London based masters with Edinburgh based one's who have very close links to London, nothing will really change.
As for us in N.E. England, we'll become even more marginalised in a Tory and London dominated England - that holds little appeal to me!

reply to post by colin42

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It is however no different than what happens to those that face the same choice from Newcastle, Manchester, Newport, Cornwall and even deprived areas within London.

To blame 'The English' is simple minded, the easy target. Most of 'The English' are just as oppressed as any Scot, Welsh or Irishman.

Blame the real causes. Those that rule for their own gain, Alex Samon included. If you think he cares whether Scots prosper, fail or remain the same I think you are in for a let down. I could be wrong about him but I very much doubt it.

If I could applaud you I would.

Many times have I tried to express what you have said with far less effect.

reply to post by Freeborn

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I agree , theyre all in the same gangs so nothing will really change politically , but financially i think the scotts would get a big shock.
Its a headache for both sides and has come-about at the worst time possible , i think Scotland just needs to drop the subject and we`ll forget about it.

And aslong s theres a tory gov ,(lets face it the lib dems dont exist), the north-east will always take the blunt end mate , were a Labour stronghold.

reply to post by AtheistFishMonkey

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And aslong s theres a tory gov ,(lets face it the lib dems dont exist), the north-east will always take the blunt end mate , were a Labour stronghold.

With the amount of financial influence and power London and the South East / Home Counties has England will always be Tory dominated.

The North East is indeed a Labour stronghold, personally I despise any sort of party allegiance, and the Tories know that and that it's unlikely to change and so they will think it pointless to invest in a region where they will gain little politically.
As a result the North East becomes increasingly marginalised.

reply to post by Freeborn

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Cant argue with anything you wrote. Thats unusual for me. Great post

reply to post by Freeborn

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Plus , we sort of .......... let the jocks in , and helped them fight , and used Sunderland as a "base"
2nd

reply to post by colin42

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Feeling poorly used if you have to leave your family and country just to be able to earn a reasonable living is understandable. It is however no different than what happens to those that face the same choice from Newcastle, Manchester, Newport, Cornwall and even deprived areas within London.

The difference between Scotland and Newcastle, Manchester, Newport et al is that the Scots do have an opportunity to make fundamental decisions about their future unlike disenfranchised Southern regions. Now how will they vote? That is the question. We've got almost two years to be persuaded either way.

Basic psychology tho' - keep telling a nation how they need you while scorning, deriding and simultaneously threatening them is one sure fire way to ensure the Scots do vote for independence. What are the positives of the union from a Scottish perspective? (the only one that actually matters in the circumstances)

Hmmm...carrot or stick? carrot or stick?

reply to post by christina-66

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Your right but not 100% right and not close either.

I have visited Scotland many times. I was always suprised when at the many historical sites how many times you have not only brought down your own people but how viciously you did it. Clan against clan, high lander against low lander.

How many of you blame the English when in fact history shows the dirty deeds were planned and carried out by Scots against Scots.

So it does not have to be carrot or stick as it can also be old hatreds v old grudges. The Scotish people are not as united as some wish to paint them.

Not even sure you are going to find walking away from the union is your choice and your choice alone. In any divorce someone gets the house, the other the car and the lawyers walk away with the money. Walking out of a long standing relationship will come at a cost and as yet no one is telling you what you are going to have to pay.

There are plenty of countries that use the same currency in the world so obvious in fact I wont bother even giving an exampe. look on wiki for a list.

en.wikipedia.org...

another point is that in no way shape or form would Scotland ever be hostile to England since we share so much in common. I doubt England would be hostile to Scotland either. Does England see Ireland as a threat or France or Spain?

We would become allies in a rapidly changing world and our shared interests would bring us closer together since the reason for much resentment (independence) was removed.

If scotland got Independence then by the sounds of things the Scottish and English would be happy...so why all the arguing and name calling?

Only the UK could argue with each other over something they both want.

I really hope that both countries prosper if Scotland became its own country as I dont wish hardship on anyone north or south of the border.

All those saying Scotland would need to join the Euro...well if we did then we would be your link in Europe. Maybe that would bring us closer together as you may need us to sway decisions in your favour that you cant currently do?

How about listing some benefits to each country and focus on possatives for a bit?

reply to post by colin42

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True and that will effect the vote m8. We just have to wait and see what comes up.

reply to post by colin42

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Your right but not 100% right and not close either.

Exsqeeze Me?? Ok....what am I right about? What am I not 100% right about? What am I not even close about? If we get this sorted out for starters we may even begin to have some form of coherent debate

I have visited Scotland many times. I was always suprised when at the many historical sites how many times you have not only brought down your own people but how viciously you did it. Clan against clan, high lander against low lander.

And this history of people long dead matters to the current debate because.......???

How many of you blame the English when in fact history shows the dirty deeds were planned and carried out by Scots against Scots.

What are you havering about? Please....feel free to at least tell me what period in our history you’re referring to.

So it does not have to be carrot or stick as it can also be old hatreds v old grudges. The Scotish people are not as united as some wish to paint them.

You think the McDonalds will go after the Campbells???....twas a dreadful massacre....but it did happen in 16 bloody 92.

Not even sure you are going to find walking away from the union is your choice and your choice alone. In any divorce someone gets the house, the other the car and the lawyers walk away with the money. Walking out of a long standing relationship will come at a cost and as yet no one is telling you what you are going to have to pay.

It certainly is our choice and our choice alone. That’s what’s so unique about this referendum.

How about you tell me about the costs. You, after all, are a someone and that would be a start.

How’s this for a challenge? I’ll represent the majority of Scotland (which I do being as yet undecided) and you present me with the case for the union. (Cos the past few pages of this thread make me want to jump on the independence bandwagon forthwith).

reply to post by christina-66

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Exsqeeze Me?? Ok....what am I right about? What am I not 100% right about? What am I not even close about? If we get this sorted out for starters we may even begin to have some form of coherent debate

Because you are right in what you say but no where near close to being right if you think it is that simple.

And this history of people long dead matters to the current debate because.......???

Because history between England and Scotland is always brought into any conversation about their relationship and more often than not by the Scotish claiming foul by the English in my experience so it seems to matter a lot even though it should not.

I do note you say of 'A people long dead'. Maybe there is a point of discussion there.

What are you havering about? Please....feel free to at least tell me what period in our history you’re referring to.

Come on now. We are taught the same things in our schools so dont play that one. I thought you wanted discussion not re start another silly argument on semantics.

You think the McDonalds will go after the Campbells???....twas a dreadful massacre....but it did happen in 16 bloody 92.

So you do know what I am havering about. I have had a few pints with quite a few Scots and have witnessed the abrasion between those from Glasgow and Edingborugh first hand. I have also seen a note in a glasgow pub window saying 'No English', a few years back granted but not too many. The Celtic/Rangers nonsense reared its head just recently so like I say you are more divided than you make out over nonsense long since past. If you dont want to recognise this in yourselves I dont see independence being a smooth ride.

It certainly is our choice and our choice alone. That’s what’s so unique about this referendum.

Its a referendum that a two faced tory scumbag PM has offered you. One that will not even allow a referendum for membership of the EU and who has openly admitted he will not be held accountable to any result he did not like anyway. Hows that for a start.

How about you tell me about the costs. You, after all, are a someone and that would be a start.

That is something you should be asking Samon not me and something you should have been made fully aware of if you want to defend against 'The stick' of fear and misinformation that will surely be used against you.

How’s this for a challenge? I’ll represent the majority of Scotland (which I do being as yet undecided) and you present me with the case for the union. (Cos the past few pages of this thread make me want to jump on the independence bandwagon forthwith).

How about we agree not to fight each other to win points and talk like two human beings. I have no idea what Scotish independence will bring ALL our countries, that includes Wales and N. Ireland and just like you we need to have the information to avoid the exact same stick.

If Scots believe that independence is a great reason to act in a totally selfish, self serving way centred only on Scotland and Scotish choice and to hell with the others then maybe you are not the ally I have always seen you as.

reply to post by colin42

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Because you are right in what you say but no where near close to being right if you think it is that simple.

Thanks – that’s so much clearer now.

Could you please start giving specific examples of all these vague generalisations you seem to enjoy making. We were not taught Scottish history to any degree in school. (my two sons were even less than I was - that would be a nothing). We also have an independent education system and will most certainly not have been taught the same things at school. I’m genuinely curious as to what you’ve been taught.

Asking you what period in history you are talking about with your references to Scots brutality toward another is not ‘semantics’ it is key to getting to the bottom of your assertions however. Is it pre Scots? Pre Norman invasion? Pre Union?

Aye – I reckon your ‘No English’ sign goes way way back – you’re giving your age away now. Why is abrasion between the Glaswegians and Edinburghers even any of your concern? There’s an old saying that says ‘where there’s water there’s a divide’. Sure the west coasters (industrial heartland – or it was) often claims the anglicised east coast doesn’t understand them. The highlanders claim the lowlanders don’t understand them...and of course the islanders claim the mainlanders haven’t a clue. So what? You reckon we'll be pulling out the broadswords again?

Our referendum has nothing at all to do with ‘two faced tory scum bags’. Our referendum was on the cards long before he was elected. The SNP ( the party of independence) has a working majority in the Scottish government (they are called a government up here – not an ‘executive).

You’re off to a pretty bad start - I need to be convinced this union is a good thing for us Scots. Care to try again?

PS. Take a look at the Massacre of Glen Coe - just to see what really lay behind it

reply to post by Six6Six

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Good grief - go read your history and some law please (maybe even a bit of geography). You're not living in the real world - your living in your world. You appear to have picked up on every Scottish cliché that there is .......och life's awright wi a bottle of irn bru by yer side. Chillax - really. You want us gone? I don't think there's going to be a problem with that if the type of thinking exemplified by yourself and in this thread generally is exposed in wider debating forums.

reply to post by christina-66

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History is being given less and less time in schools today but we (secondary school) were given a brief version of the clearances. The battle of Culloden, even shown a film. I later found a lot was propaganda and not always in fvour of the English. Enough to know Mel Gibbsons film Braveheart about Wallace was just entertainment. Of course the great engineers Scotland has produced. Probably a few other things but hey as you say it was a long time ago.

The period I am refering too is probally around the Jacobite uprising a little before and of course after.

I dont expect the claymores would be polished up and cries of freedom would echo round the glens. What I am saying is Scotland has more problems than just the evil English and all your problems do not stem from the English. Cant argue that many come from westminster so that is why I say if you are sure you want it and you know the price you will have to pay to have it, go for it.

Our referendum has nothing at all to do with ‘two faced tory scum bags’

And you think the labour scumbags are any different. Really.

You’re off to a pretty bad start - I need to be convinced this union is a good thing for us Scots. Care to try again?

I think I made it quite clear in this and my other posts I have not got the information needed to know one way or the other and neither have you. We are being played as pawns in a bigger game and like pawns they will not bat an eye if they have to sacrifice us to get a check mate.

Visited Glen Coe. Like I said terrible things occured. I also visited 'The well of the seven heads' and the infighting within the clans was no less bloody. Almost put me off my haggis.

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