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What’s with Protestants and Catholics and their hate of knowledge?
page: 2share:
Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by FlyersFan
Wrong. The Catholic church was against people reading 'scripture' that was not accepted by the church. That's totally different than saying the Catholic church was against 'the reading of scriptures'. Oh .. btw ... not many people could read back in the day either ..
Wrong? Wrong.
The council of Trent in 1565 stated All the faithful Catholics must agree I shall never accept or interpret scripture otherwise in accordance with the unanimous concept of the fathers. “ the office of interpreting scripture is totally entrusted to the teaching Majesterium of the church. There are only 8 passages Rome claims they can interpret that no one else can.
In a similar manner the Pharisee’s claimed they alone had the right to interpret and enforce scripture, and that is when everything went wrong. Trouble followed when the right to read and study were in the hands of the few, instead of the many. When Jesus rebuked the Pharisee’s it wasn’t because they didn’t understand tradition, but because they didn’t understand the word of God.
www.letusreason.org...
For centuries it was a mortal sin to possess and read the Bible in one’s own native tongue. But the Bible read was the Latin Vulgate which virtually no one but trained priests could understand! Pope Innocent the 3rd 1200 A.D. Forbade Bible reading in the common language so people had to learn Latin before they could even pick up the book. The council of Valencia (1229), the Council of Trent (1545) and Pope Clement XI (1713) Issued a papal bull to forbid letting people have the Bible in their own language and reading it for themselves. Likewise Clement the 11th 1720 issued a Papal Bull against Bible reading. Leo the 12th 1821-1829 Condemned all religious freedom, Bible societies, and Bible translations.
Even the Catholic dictionary records this fact “In early times the Bible was read freely by the lay people...New dangers came in during the Middle Ages...To meet those evils, the Council of Toulouse (1229) and Terragona (1234) forbade the laity to read the vernacular translations of the Bible. Pius IV required bishops to refuse lay persons leave to read even Catholic versions of Scripture unless their confessors or parish priests judged that such reading was likely to prove beneficial.” (Catholic Dictionary, p. 82).edit on 21-1-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)
Well done indeed.
Being a generalist, I count on minds like yours. Thanks.
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am
What does bleated mean?
If it means attacked... nothing new.
In any case.... bring the noise
My French may be showing here but I thought that bleat was the word to describe sheep noise.
If one receives it, one is being bleated at.
Please correct this Frenchman's language if required.
You might also educate me as to what the noise of goats is called.
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Because it suggests a Creator and they cannot accept this. Why does religion have trouble with science? They don't. They have a problem with the man in the relationship refusing to admit he is wrong.
]
I do not agree.
Science and those who follow it over religions will never mind admitting they are wrong when those who believe in fantasy, miracles, magic and a super God prove they are right.
Science also rejects whole heartedly a genocidal son murdering God.
You not only have to prove your God is real but also that it is right for man to follow an alien God who is without morals.
Regards
DL
If you have the perspective of the overall story, you can begin to see our place. All of what you state above can be seen by reading my articles. Start with my most recent. Careful study through the information will allow you to tie it in with what is happening in our world today. We are in Egypt and in bondage. First, they will take our money with an oppressive tax. Next, they will take our property. In most cases, they already have. The last step is slavery. We are nearly there. Compare this to Joseph being sold into slavery. This is the picture of Israel. Then follow this to the fact that the brothers didn't recognize him when they returned to Egypt for help. Follow the story from there and you see our world today. We are gearing up for the exodus in the wilderness.
My Blog
The Exodus Thread
reply to post by SuperiorEd
you realize that there is little to no proof of any historical "exodus" ....
Though there is one exception that might possibly be the exodus we read about within the bible....
but other then the bible there is hardly any proof of an exodus from egypt
www.bibleandscience.com...
you realize that there is little to no proof of any historical "exodus" ....
Though there is one exception that might possibly be the exodus we read about within the bible....
but other then the bible there is hardly any proof of an exodus from egypt
www.bibleandscience.com...
reply to post by Akragon
Are you sure about that?
you realize that there is little to no proof of any historical "exodus" ....
Are you sure about that?
Originally posted by SuperiorEd
reply to post by Akragon
you realize that there is little to no proof of any historical "exodus" ....
Are you sure about that?
No actually im not...
I've seen those videos before... yes they are very interesting, yet its possible there are other explanations for what they've found....
Im actually talking about documented history though.... IF a mass exodus actually happened wouldn't there be someone that documented it?
I mean it was a pretty big event wouldn't you say.... none of the "jew" bothered writing about it... nor did the egyptians...
Though as i said there is one "historical" possibility... if you read that link i provided... you will see what i mean
edit on 22-1-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Because it suggests a Creator and they cannot accept this. Why does religion have trouble with science? They don't. They have a problem with the man in the relationship refusing to admit he is wrong.
]
I do not agree.
Science and those who follow it over religions will never mind admitting they are wrong when those who believe in fantasy, miracles, magic and a super God prove they are right.
Science also rejects whole heartedly a genocidal son murdering God.
You not only have to prove your God is real but also that it is right for man to follow an alien God who is without morals.
Regards
DL
If you have the perspective of the overall story, you can begin to see our place. All of what you state above can be seen by reading my articles. Start with my most recent. Careful study through the information will allow you to tie it in with what is happening in our world today. We are in Egypt and in bondage. First, they will take our money with an oppressive tax. Next, they will take our property. In most cases, they already have. The last step is slavery. We are nearly there. Compare this to Joseph being sold into slavery. This is the picture of Israel. Then follow this to the fact that the brothers didn't recognize him when they returned to Egypt for help. Follow the story from there and you see our world today. We are gearing up for the exodus in the wilderness.
[[/url]
Strange that you would read literally and historically what the Jews, the authors of the O T, do not.
They have more real authority than you so you might want to rethink.
www.raceandhistory.com...
It would be foolish to not recognize that it is myth we are dealing with here.
Do not be so mentally lazy.
Regards
DL
reply to post by Greatest I am
Interesting! I bookmarked your link for later perusal.
(And btw thanks for the acknowledgment earlier)
Can you tell us a little background about your personal theological journey?
Interesting! I bookmarked your link for later perusal.
(And btw thanks for the acknowledgment earlier)
Can you tell us a little background about your personal theological journey?
Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Greatest I am
Interesting! I bookmarked your link for later perusal.
(And btw thanks for the acknowledgment earlier)
Can you tell us a little background about your personal theological journey?
The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.
“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”
This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.
During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.
I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.
The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.
I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.
I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.
I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship, it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.
My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.
Regards
DL
reply to post by Greatest I am
I see this exact post here:
www.theforumsite.com...
So either you claim to be GreatestIam2 ( user name there) or you plagiarized.
Copy cat or maybe you just think your opus magnum needs to be discovered by the masses.
Gee, how did I figure that one out? Just call it a little pursuit of knowledge, actually google.
My faith belongs to me and who are you to judge me when you don't know me? Why should I have to defend statements that other people make, in this case Martin Luther, if it's not what I believe?
I do not feel obliged to defend my faith to every Tom, Dick and Harry that wants to bash it. Maybe others do, but I'll take a pass.
Thanks anyway. GreatasIam/GreatasIam2. In other words, this little Christian isn't going waste her time on yet another bash the Christians thread.
Why don't you start a thread about why being a gnostic christian is the greatest thing since cherry pie?
I see this exact post here:
www.theforumsite.com...
So either you claim to be GreatestIam2 ( user name there) or you plagiarized.
Copy cat or maybe you just think your opus magnum needs to be discovered by the masses.
Gee, how did I figure that one out? Just call it a little pursuit of knowledge, actually google.
My faith belongs to me and who are you to judge me when you don't know me? Why should I have to defend statements that other people make, in this case Martin Luther, if it's not what I believe?
I do not feel obliged to defend my faith to every Tom, Dick and Harry that wants to bash it. Maybe others do, but I'll take a pass.
Thanks anyway. GreatasIam/GreatasIam2. In other words, this little Christian isn't going waste her time on yet another bash the Christians thread.
Why don't you start a thread about why being a gnostic christian is the greatest thing since cherry pie?
reply to post by Greatest I am
The Word of God in on three levels. It is literal because it actually happened. It is symbolic because each symbol tells more of the story as history unfolds and reveals the symbol. It is also spiritual. As our soul engages the information, we see each layer of the onion peel come open. The core truth is seen by those who peel the layers and learn the symbols. You are stopping at the literal. I wrote an article about this based on my original reply here. Why are Science and Religion at Odds If you can spend some time reading backwards on my blog, I give away several methods for seeing the relationship between symbols. This is an enigma too vast and interconnected to ignore as mere myth. There is complete foreknowledge present in the chain of information. Humans cannot do this.
Strange that you would read literally and historically what the Jews, the authors of the O T, do not.
They have more real authority than you so you might want to rethink.
www.raceandhistory.com...
It would be foolish to not recognize that it is myth we are dealing with here.
Do not be so mentally lazy.
Regards
DL
The Word of God in on three levels. It is literal because it actually happened. It is symbolic because each symbol tells more of the story as history unfolds and reveals the symbol. It is also spiritual. As our soul engages the information, we see each layer of the onion peel come open. The core truth is seen by those who peel the layers and learn the symbols. You are stopping at the literal. I wrote an article about this based on my original reply here. Why are Science and Religion at Odds If you can spend some time reading backwards on my blog, I give away several methods for seeing the relationship between symbols. This is an enigma too vast and interconnected to ignore as mere myth. There is complete foreknowledge present in the chain of information. Humans cannot do this.
How much B S are you willing to eat from your Church hierarchy to maintain the delusion that you believe in an invisible miracle working absentee super God?
Gnostics believe in the God within and apotheosis without a church hierarchy to lead us to God.
So by your own accusations you have not only misjudged true Christianity but in doing so have judged yourself, only without the hierarchy while making yourself god in relative truth? mercy
What is the truth of God? Nothing that I ever read and having suffered apotheosis, I know that there is no one truth of God. No proof of course.
Historically, Logically, Philosophically, Theologically, & Actually, Jesus the Christ of God is all the proof and truth any of us need. He is sufficient.
All revealed religions tend to say that God is unknowable.
They then proceed to write volumes of what they know of the unknowable.
Hmm. Sounds like someone is lying.
Someone is lying, but from before we see gnosticism ascribing to the same thing one has accused Catholicism, Protestantism, and all revealed religions. Only this, Peters words to the Greeks on Mar's Hill in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 17:22+. Also, Jesus words in John 4:22.
We worship a God we know which is why it is all the more fitting that Jesus isn't included, but is the one and only exception to those allegations of being a lie.
Regardless of my beliefs and ascriptions, if you believe it's all a lie for the others then why do you lie to yourself, making yourself God through an extremely finite knowledge? Lying to ourselves is possibly the worst thing we can do.
I encourage you to truly study Christ and the Bible. See if you can find fault with him, and when you can't, let Him into your heart. Let us not lean on our own understanding but on the understanding of truth in God as we know Him through our one and only true example, Jesus the Christ of God.
edit on 23-1-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: typo
Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
reply to post by Greatest I am
I see this exact post here:
www.theforumsite.com...
So either you claim to be GreatestIam2 ( user name there) or you plagiarized.
Copy cat or maybe you just think your opus magnum needs to be discovered by the masses.
Gee, how did I figure that one out? Just call it a little pursuit of knowledge, actually google.
My faith belongs to me and who are you to judge me when you don't know me? Why should I have to defend statements that other people make, in this case Martin Luther, if it's not what I believe?
I do not feel obliged to defend my faith to every Tom, Dick and Harry that wants to bash it. Maybe others do, but I'll take a pass.
Thanks anyway. GreatasIam/GreatasIam2. In other words, this little Christian isn't going waste her time on yet another bash the Christians thread.
Why don't you start a thread about why being a gnostic christian is the greatest thing since cherry pie?
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt
Regards
DL
Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
I encourage you to truly study Christ and the Bible. See if you can find fault with him, and when you can't, let Him into your heart. Let us not lean on our own understanding but on the understanding of truth in God as we know Him through our one and only true example, Jesus the Christ of God.
edit on 23-1-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: typo
Let's do that if you like.
Jesus said, let no man put asunder. IOW, there is no divorce.
Would you tell some wife who gets beat twice a week that she cannot divorce her husband?
Was Jesus offering a fair and workable policy?
Regards
DL
reply to post by wildtimes
Hey kiddo ... you just proved my point. First line of what you posted ... They didn't discourage reading scripture .. they discouraged reading scripture that wasn't accepted by the Catholic church ... EXACTLY as I said. Thanks posting the proof of what I said.
Hey kiddo ... you just proved my point. First line of what you posted ... They didn't discourage reading scripture .. they discouraged reading scripture that wasn't accepted by the Catholic church ... EXACTLY as I said. Thanks posting the proof of what I said.
reply to post by FlyersFan
They spent centuries discouraging anyone from reading it who could not read Latin, and only the clergy were allowed to learn to read Latin. They forbade it being translated, and any translations in the vernacular were seized and burned. Read a few more of the 'lines' in my post (including the ex-text)
cheers
They spent centuries discouraging anyone from reading it who could not read Latin, and only the clergy were allowed to learn to read Latin. They forbade it being translated, and any translations in the vernacular were seized and burned. Read a few more of the 'lines' in my post (including the ex-text)
cheers
reply to post by Greatest I am
I would never consider myself a great mind. I am very thankful for a simple mind with faith and a heart that loves. The title of your post is inflammatory and judgmental. I have no desire to discuss Christianity with you because of your mindset.
Regards,
Ann
I would never consider myself a great mind. I am very thankful for a simple mind with faith and a heart that loves. The title of your post is inflammatory and judgmental. I have no desire to discuss Christianity with you because of your mindset.
Regards,
Ann
edit on 1/23/2012 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
reply to post by Greatest I am
I would never consider myself a great mind. I am very thankful for a simple mind with faith and a heart that loves. The title of your post is inflammatory and judgmental. I have no desire to discuss Christianity with you because of your mindset.
Regards,
Annedit on 1/23/2012 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)
You make my point.
You run from knowledge.
Regards
DL
reply to post by Greatest I am
reply to post by Greatest I am
I have done enough reading about Gnosticism to satisfy my inferior intellect. You posted no earth shattering information. Knowledge and wisdom are two very different things. I am wise enough to know wisdom is the better of the two.
Japanese Proverb: Knowledge without wisdom is a load of books on the back an ass.
reply to post by Greatest I am
I have done enough reading about Gnosticism to satisfy my inferior intellect. You posted no earth shattering information. Knowledge and wisdom are two very different things. I am wise enough to know wisdom is the better of the two.
Japanese Proverb: Knowledge without wisdom is a load of books on the back an ass.
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
Would you concede that the title of your thread is inaccurate if I told you I read "The Other Bible" about 8 years ago?
If not, then you really aren't being honest to this Catholic. It is dangerous to stereotypes groups of people.
I've read the Koran, too. If that in any way proves my point.
Would you concede that the title of your thread is inaccurate if I told you I read "The Other Bible" about 8 years ago?
If not, then you really aren't being honest to this Catholic. It is dangerous to stereotypes groups of people.
I've read the Koran, too. If that in any way proves my point.
edit on 1/23/2012 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)
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