There is no 9/11 conspiracy

reply to post by AzureSky


Outside help... like a nuclear middle eastern bully allied to the United States?

"Our Purpose Was To Document The Event"

5 Israelis, 2 confirmed were MOSSAD, caught with a sock full of cash, maps of the city, box cutters and a van that bomb dogs acted like they smelled explosives.

"We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem."

reply to post by samkent



How does SCIENTIFIC proof sound?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I already know you or the OP won't read this, because nobody wants to hear when they are being proved WRONG.

Originally posted by saroncan
reply to post by AzureSky

 

Exactly!...When the empire state building was hit by a military cargo plane back in the 50's,it did'nt go down.

You speak as if you know what you're talking about.

1. It wasn't a "Cargo Plane" it was a U.S. Army B-25 bomber

2. It didn't happen "Back in the 50s" it happened on July 28, 1945

3. The size of a B-25 bomber is much smaller than a Boeing 767, with smaller wingspan and smaller fuel capacity. A B-25 bomber has a wingspan of 67 feet, compared with 156 feet for a Boeing 767. The fuel capacity of the B-25 bomber was 1,000 gallons, as compared with 24,000 gallons for a Boeing 767. As well, the speed at which a B-25 bomber traveled was far less than the ~500 mph than the speed that the two Boeing 767's were traveling when they hit the World Trade Center.


If you cant get the basics right that says a lot about how little you know and your understanding about something as infinitely more complex like the issues surrounding 9/11.

Originally posted by Ozvaldo
reply to post by samkent

 

How does SCIENTIFIC proof sound?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I already know you or the OP won't read this, because nobody wants to hear when they are being proved WRONG.

This for truth

reply to post by samkent

Operation Northwoods was merely suggested by a couple of people.

You're wrong. It was much more than that as I'm sure you do know..

It was a proposal put forth by the Joint Chief of staff at the time but rejected before it could be put into action. But it went much farther than a mere suggestion by "a couple of people" and it simply can't be dismissed - It's irrefutable proof a government will consider attacking It's own people in order to achieve a specified goal, such as removing a head of state for example which was the reason for It's initial existence (removing Castro). It was also taken very seriously at the time and was presented to the Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962.

It got close, very close.

I suggest you read this: MaryFerrellFoundation - Operation Northwoods.

And this:

In his new exposé of the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS.

This document, titled “Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba” was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba.

These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake “Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” including “sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),” faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods “may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.”

The National Security Archive.

reply to post by Rising Against


How many US citizens did Operation Northwoods envisage killing ? I think you should have covered that for completeness.

reply to post by Alfie1


As I already posted....

These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake “Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” including “sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),” faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods “may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.”

I don't think they planned to literally kill a certain amount of people, the plan was to attack a target such as a city (such as Washington for example) and them blame a foreign power (at the time it was Cuba). The attacks ranged from assassinating actual people to hijacking civilian airliners.. as highlighted above.

I think It's also worth pointing out that whether people like this or not is irrelevant. It's not something that can just be dismissed really.

reply to post by Rising Against


Are you saying Operation Northwoods proposed an attack on a US city killing US citizens ? You will have to show me where that is in the plan; not someone's commentary.

Originally posted by Slavich
It is a sad state of affairs that this website has come too. I've been lurking here for years, and I rarely make post. I can't hold this in any longer. You people deserve to know. All this conspiracy nonsense is just a distraction from the truth. ALL OF IT.

Although I do agree that these 9/11 conspiracy theoriists are the problem rather than the solution, I disgaree that there isn't ANY 9/11 conspiracy. We've seen how the gov't couldn't even hand out bottles of water to hurricane survivors in New Orleans without slipping on banana peels, and we've even seen from that Fast and Furios program that got US border agents killed. When there was an inquiry on who set it up, everyone spontaneously developed amnesia and declared "beats me". Supposedly that brilliant idea to allow gun traffickers to smuggle guns to Mexican drug lords came simultaneously to everyone from leprechauns.

Due to this record of gov't mismanagement, I know for a fact that there had to have been more gov't bungling leading up to and during the 9/11 attack that could have prevented or lessened the attack...and true to form all the key players are playing the dumb routine and pretending they were all Clint Eastwood during the attack. The conspiracy is pretty obvious- there's a general coverup of just how badly people in key places let us down, and they don't want to admit how they let us down becuase if anyone found out some guy had a memo of an imminent warning of a terrorist attack that he found lying forgotten beneath an old pizza box in the corner of his office, he'd be sent to prison. The 9/11 commission report mentions some of the failures- the nonexistent communications between the departments, the breakdown of handing down orders, dereliction of duty, etc- but I guarantee there has to be more.

What I despise is all these con artists and crackpots like Richard Gage, Alex Jones, and Dylan Avery pushing out all this idiotic "secret inside job" foolishness on those damned fool conspiracy web sites to make a fast buck, and it amazes me just how gullible someone has to be to actually believe how the gov't is some near omnipotent force made up of huge armies of mindlessly servile drones who plan everything out fifty chain of events ahead and who have the the power to perform massive operation with sheer perfection that rival a supernatural act. I've seen so much speculation of super weaponry like hush-a-boom explosives that leave no traces, laser weapons from outer space, hologram plane projectors, tactical nukes, etc that you'd think you were watching a James Bomb movie. If I created a website saying the towers were secretly destroyed by unicorn farts, someone, somewhere on the Internet would believe it.

Rather than working toward getting more investigations, these people are all but making sure nobody takes the request for further investigations seriously to the point there won't ever be any more investigations. Who the heck is going to launch an investigation on whether 9/11 attack was secretly staged by shape shifting alien lizards?

Frustrating, to say the least.

Originally posted by Alfie1
reply to post by Rising Against

 

Are you saying Operation Northwoods proposed an attack on a US city killing US citizens ? You will have to show me where that is in the plan; not someone's commentary.

I read the Northwoods report and they're making that part up out of their own abject paranoia. The plan was to make SIMULATED attacks, like sinking empty ships at Guantanamo, capturing friendly Cubans dressed as communist Cuban soldiers, harassing international flights with fighters that have Cuban markings, and the like. The goal was to create LIVE witnesses to Cuban aggression to manufacture a reason to invade, not kill everyone around for no reason.

What theese conspiracy people neglect to mention is that the planes that were to have been "shot down" in Northwoods were to be empty planes guided by remote control, with passengers that never existed, specifically so that people wouldn't be killed. This is where that retarded "all the passengers on the hijacked planes were really secret gov't agents" idea originated from. Little wonder why they never gave Northwoods the go ahead, as it was a pretty boneheaded scheme would have never even worked. All it would take is an enterprising journalist trying to track down the next of kin of the victims and finding out there weren't any to expose the whole plan.

reply to post by Alfie1

Are you saying Operation Northwoods proposed an attack on a US city killing US citizens ? You will have to show me where that is in the plan; not someone's commentary.

Maybe you should bother to read the links I posted?

Official government documents:

Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba [includes cover memoranda], March 13, 1962, TOP SECRET, 15 pp. [PDF] [Important]

Many pages of documents are found above.

The Mary Ferrell Foundation has a lot of great information too. Here it is again:

MaryFerrellFoundation - Operation Northwoods

Memo from DoD/JCS Representative on Caribbean Survey Group to JCS: Justification for Military Intervention in Cuba, 9 Mar 1962

Lansdale Memo of 16 Mar 1962.. This memo records a high-level meeting in the White House 3 days after McNamara was presented with Operation Northwoods.

I posted all of this already as well.

reply to post by Rising Against


I have looked at your links but I have yet to see any provision for killing US citizens. Can you direct me to any specific reference to that ?

Originally posted by Alfie1
reply to post by Rising Against

 

I have looked at your links but I have yet to see any provision for killing US citizens. Can you direct me to any specific reference to that ?

Better yet, he should be reading the actual Northwoods documents that were released, instead of speculating or imagining on his own what the Northwoods documents might have said...

Full text of the Operation Northwoods documents

reply to post by GoodOlDave

Better yet, he should be reading the actual Northwoods documents that were released, instead of speculating or imagining on his own what the Northwoods documents might have said...

Actually, I was reading those (check the first link from my last post).. and on page 11 and 12 It's mentioned:

"4. We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington.

The terror campaign could be pointed at refugees seeking haven in the United States. We could sink a boatload of Cubans enroute to Florida (real or simulated). We could foster attempts on lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to the extent of wounding in instances to be widely publicized. Exploding a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots, the arrest of Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents substantiating Cuban involvement, also would be helpful in projecting the idea of an irresponsible government."

Source)

It's also worth mentioning that this was in 1962, the year of posting this now is 2012, the 9/11 attack taking place in 2001. We know for a fact that authentic looking attacks on U.S. owned property was proposed and taken seriously enough to be presented to the Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. On page 13 of the North woods documents they even discuss the possibility of making it look like they (A foreign power) shot down a civilian airliner filled with passengers. So, why wouldn't a similar attack happen today, or 10 years ago, if it can be seriously considered all the way back then? Why wouldn’t a more real, extreme, authentic looking attack in particular in fact occur today when someone like that was considered then?

reply to post by JibbyJedi


One need only look at the results of the attack and its following responses:

A government bound to its people, now hated and seemingly eternally months from rebellion and utter ruin.


People scream profit. Who has profited on the actual event and its subsidiary wars? Haliburton, for example, has only gained 8 billion dollars over the last few years. And its derivative hasn't altered all that much, indicating little profit fro the series of events.


Nothing was gained, and everything was lost. Now, 10 years later, the powers are gasping for control that they are loosing more every month.

It has all been for nothing. And yet we are to believe they whom have failed somehow managed to plan everything?

False, I exclaim. false I exclaim with all my heart. Consistency is the only true evidence for something. And there is none.

Such a plan would enable a logical build-up of incidents to be combined with other seemingly unrelated events to camouflage the ultimate objective and create the necessary impression of Cuban rashness and irresponsibility on a large scale, directed at other countries as well as the United States.

Page 5 Para 3

A series of well coordinated incidents will be planned to take place in and around Guantanamo to give genuine appearance of being done by hostile Cuban forces.

Page 7 Para 2

Now replace Cuba with a middle eastern country and it starts to sound familiar...


Here's a few 'incidents to establish a credible attack'

Start riots at front gate
Blow up munitions on base
Burn aircraft on base runway
Lob mortar shells from outside base into base
Sabotage ship in harbor, large fires -- naphthalene
Sink ship in harbor and hold funerals for mock-victims
Blow up US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba

My personal favorite

Direct Quote - "We could sink a boatload of Cubans enroute to Florida (real or simulated)"

Page 9 Second Sentence

There are also several instances where drone aircraft are setup to simulate military and civilian aircraft being shot down, with convincing cover stories, some to include dispersing aircraft wreckage by submarine off the coast of Cuba.

The bottom line to TPTB is what is going to keep the money rolling in. The loss of a few thousand lives is nothing compared to lifetimes worth of wealth and power, and an easily influenced population of consumers.

Fear can be a powerful tool, and they have had plenty of time to perfect it's use...

reply to post by Rising Against


Fact is Operation Northwoods, although reprehensible, did not envisage harming a single US citizen. The airliner shootdown you refer to was clearly intended to be a simulation.

The whole thing was in any event instantly rejected and to compare it to the mass murder of nearly 3000 men, women and children is apples and oranges.

reply to post by Alfie1


Yes SPECIFICALLY Northwoods didn't mention killing innocent Americans, although it's hard to imagine zero casualties with some of the ideas; ie mortaring the base.

However to the American government, harming or killing civilians and/or service members and/or prisoners is perfectly fine, in the name if research and development.

1931 Dr. Cornelius Rhoads, under the auspices of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Investigations, infects human subjects with cancer cells. He later goes on to establish the U.S. Army Biological Warfare facilities in Maryland, Utah, and Panama, and is named to the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission. While there, he begins a series of radiation exposure experiments on American soldiers and civilian hospital patients.

1946 Patients in VA hospitals are used as guinea pigs for medical experiments. In order to allay suspicions, the order is given to change the word "experiments" to "investigations" or "observations" whenever reporting a medical study performed in one of the nation's veteran's hospitals.

1947 The CIA begins its study of '___' as a potential weapon for use by American intelligence. Human subjects (both civilian and military) are used with and without their knowledge.

1950 Department of Defense begins plans to detonate nuclear weapons in desert areas and monitor downwind residents for medical problems and mortality rates.

1950 In an experiment to determine how susceptible an American city would be to biological attack, the U.S. Navy sprays a cloud of bacteria from ships over San Franciso. Monitoring devices are situated throughout the city in order to test the extent of infection.

1953 Joint Army-Navy-CIA experiments are conducted in which tens of thousands of people in New York and San Francisco are exposed to the airborne germs Serratia marcescens and Bacillus glogigii.

1955 The CIA, in an experiment to test its ability to infect human populations with biological agents, releases a bacteria withdrawn from the Army's biological warfare arsenal over Tampa Bay, Fl

1956 U.S. military releases mosquitoes infected with Yellow Fever over Savannah, Ga and Avon Park, Fl. Following each test, Army agents posing as public health officials test victims for effects.

1966 U.S. Army dispenses Bacillus subtilis variant niger throughout the New York City subway system. More than a million civilians are exposed when army scientists drop lightbulbs filled with the bacteria onto ventilation grates.

1970 United States intensifies its development of "ethnic weapons" (Military Review, Nov., 1970), designed to selectively target and eliminate specific ethnic groups who are susceptible due to genetic differences and variations in DNA.

1987 Department of Defense admits that, despite a treaty banning research and development of biological agents, it continues to operate research facilities at 127 facilities and universities around the nation.

1994 Senator John D. Rockefeller issues a report revealing that for at least 50 years the Department of Defense has used hundreds of thousands of military personnel in human experiments and for intentional exposure to dangerous substances. Materials included mustard and nerve gas, ionizing radiation, psychochemicals, hallucinogens, and drugs used during the Gulf War .

Using people is nothing new to the government. To me, it seems to be their only purpose.

reply to post by Slavich
With all the thousands of detailed facts that prove 911 is a conspiracy. I will give you one that will end your ignorant tirade and trolling. Jet fuel can burn at around 1500 F with a steady oxygen supply. Steel melts at 2500 F! Jet fuel can "never" get hot enough to make steel "molten"!! Period!!!!!!!

reply to post by Slavich


If there is no conspiracy, why are you trying so hard to convince us there isn't. If you know there is no conspiracy then what's it to you? I know..Iknow.. I think you have doubts and you are trying to convince yourself that the official story makes sence. But that is just my two cents. You can believe whatever you whanna believe.

Peace.