I think Arkaleus' problem is that he see's it all as a fight.. "Feeding the evil system" who provide us, protect us, and perform many other services for us. You call it "feeding the system". Well guess what, that's government. People work togeather. Someone has to regulate things a little bit for us. Are you an anarchist? Oh no, you're helping our economy by buying things, and becoming a consumer...is that so horrible? Like I said, we work together as a people. That is how we must survive.

Basically the current war we see in Iraq is all due to economics. Plenty of economic gain so certain corporations can stuff there pockets full of wealth while people die brutally because of it. Under a socialist system there would be no need for this kind of economic warfare. Most people could care less how many die or starve over there, as long as they aren ot American lives. They can continue to drive around the SUVS fueled by oil that people had died for.

[edit on 17-9-2004 by RedOctober90]

[edit on 17-9-2004 by RedOctober90]

The answer doesn't lie in socio-economic systems. It never has. The problem is a spiritual one. If a person is perfect, it doesn't matter what kind of system it is. It works perfectly. It's not that hard ot be perfect. It just means that you stop doing evil, and start doing what is good and harmless. It also means to quit wanting things beyond your basic means. It means educating yourself past the distractions.

Mankind's resources are best used in the pursuit of the sciences. People are best when they are able to share in these pursuits and enjoy the rewards. Consumers make mad bad citizens.

Ark

You still haven't answered the root question.

What is the basis of all problems? What is the root problem?

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
You still haven't answered the root question.

What is the basis of all problems? What is the root problem?

I think I know Ark well enough to answer for him, the root problem in his eyes is......drum roll...........VICE! Am I correct Arkaleus?

Corruption of the spiritual body is the root of all human decay.

That is the true vice. I don't think that corruption goes in by the mouth, or any of the senses, but rather it comes by way of our intentions.

All evil people are similar in their ways, and all good people are similar as well.

All human suffering comes by corruption and the slavery it causes among humans. What kind of slavery do I speak? It is the kind that makes men hate uncontrollably the servants of God, and obey a mind and will that does not come from themselves.

Arkaleus

I disagree. Vice is only a subset of the real core, including self-loathing, hate, greed, among many many others.

The fatal flaw of humanity, is his inability to love himself.

That which one can not find from within, must seek outwardly. Love is the greatest thing we seek from others, which encapselates acceptance, approval, confidence, etc.

The problem there, is that because we are unable to love ourselves, we can never truely love another unconditionally, which is what we need so we fail to feel fulfilled.



With that in mind, it might be easier to understand that to change people, kindness and example are the most effective means.

So kindly cut the #.

If you don't think that other insightful people realize the decay and corruption humanity brings (this certainly is not mutually exclusive to America), then you grossly underestimate people.

I've seen you post other places, so let's leave the burning bush voice back in the movie.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
All evil people are similar in their ways, and all good people are similar as well.

But Ark, don't you see the need for balance? Good would have no meaning if there were no evil to define it against. There will always be good and evil, it's just that peoples perception of what is good and what is evil will differ. Again, there would be no value on good, if there were no evil to make good what it is, if you loved your enemy as well as those close to your heart, what value would that place on your love? There must be balance in every part of existence. If everybody believed the same as you, you would be just another face in the crowd, you would not be able to consider yourself righteous, if there were nobody like me out there smoking dope and fornicating to hold yourself above, right?

[edit on 18-9-2004 by 27jd]

27jd:

You are a quite a little devil. You seem to enjoy finding buttons to push and annoying me.

First off, only an ignorant man will equate good and evil. If you think the two are balanced, then you have no understanding of either.

It is an ignorant blasphemy to say that evil gives good its value. It is marvellously foolish to think that Good cannot exist without evil.

Evil does not proceed from good. Good is by definition whole, complete, and self-sufficient. Evil is the corruption of good, and it cannot create its own increase, but requires the fruit of the good to continue to exist.

Many of you modern Americans have taken this perversion of eastern religion and taken it to mean that you can live in any manner you desire, because good and evil don't matter, and no one can judge you. This is the fire of fools.

You seem to comment on almost every post that you are a dope smoking fornicator. Is this a noble thing to become, little brother? Well I spoke when I called you a shaitan.

You never post any wisdom here 27jd, you merely pick at the fruits others offer. Away, black crow, you are a pest and a vermin-snatcher.

Arkaleus.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
You are a quite a little devil. You seem to enjoy finding buttons to push and annoying me.

Guilty. But only because it gets such a rise from you, you fly off the handle way too easily, is that the trait of a wise man?

First off, only an ignorant man will equate good and evil. If you think the two are balanced, then you have no understanding of either.

I KNOW the two are balanced, and I said peoples' perception of what is good and evil usually differ except for a few fundamentals.

It is an ignorant blasphemy to say that evil gives good its value. It is marvellously foolish to think that Good cannot exist without evil.

I don't think so, I guess we just disagree here. Balance must exist in the universe.

Evil does not proceed from good. Good is by definition whole, complete, and self-sufficient.

Sounds like a self-derived definition to me, please show me where you get this definition.

Evil is the corruption of good, and it cannot create its own increase, but requires the fruit of the good to continue to exist.

And good is the denial of evil, also cannot create its own increase, but requires the sludge of evil to continue to exist, balance.

Many of you modern Americans have taken this perversion of eastern religion and taken it to mean that you can live in any manner you desire, because good and evil don't matter, and no one can judge you. This is the fire of fools.

It is not a perversion, and we don't take it that we can live any way we desire, but we are free to determine for ourselves what is good and what is evil.

You seem to comment on almost every post that you are a dope smoking fornicator. Is this a noble thing to become, little brother? Well I spoke when I called you a shaitan.

I comment on that on posts directed to you, because like you said, it pushes your buttons, and your biblical rantings prove amusing once you buttons are pushed. And these are not things I define myself by, or engage in on a regular basis, I just know they get a rise out of you, and I am alot of other things as well, but that is irrelevant to you, you only see what you consider evil. And I am not your "little" brother, I am a bodybuilder over 200lbs, and I am older than you. And remember Shaitan was condemned for judging others, something I have not done, but somebody has, hmmmm I wonder who.

You never post any wisdom here 27jd, you merely pick at the fruits others offer. Away, black crow, you are a pest and a vermin-snatcher.

You're a tough critic Ark, the only thing you consider wise is total agreement with you, sorry I can't do that. Even though I agreed with you about the government and the killing of innocents, I am still evil in your eyes because of how I choose to live my personal life, although I would never hurt others, I'll never be "good" in your eyes.

Does Good need evil? Does health need illness? This is the teaching of the father of lies, and filthy religion of all satanic persons.

There is no requirement for evil to exist. Your "KNOWLEDGE" of this is evident proof of your nature. Evil is a corruption of what was originally healthy. Evil came into being after the original perfection was expressed. Evil is a scourge of mankind, his illnesses, his strifes, and all of his confusion is the work of your father of darkness.

Perfect goodness is complete, and can create at will. It does not require evil. What can evil do? It is indeed sludge. It requires the universe of matter to dwell in, because it cannot dwell in the regions of light that are the abodes of the good. The good are all there is. Evil is a corruption of matter, and is in no way equal to the good. Does it have knowledge equal to the good? Nay, but it requires the fruit of the knowledge of good for its sustenance. It cannot sustain itself, evil dissolves, and it must constantly steal to sustain itself.

So how can it be said that the rich man and the thief are equals? This is one of the greatest of blasphemies, and it comes straight from the mouths of the demons.

You say that you determine good and evil for yourself. Well then, bring forth your corn to the scales, and let's weigh it. You will eat what you have gathered, so let us see the nature of the corn you have brought. Does you way of life cause increase of knowledge and security? Does it bring men to the light of perfection, and give immortality to his children? Does it taste sweet in the mouth of those who eat it?

Nay, but I know you 27jd, I know your spirit and your rulers, and I know that nothing good will ever come out of you.

There is an old proverb that states: A man will bring forth from the treasury within him, which is the heart. An evil heart will bring forth evil things, blasphemies, fornications, evil sayings and the like. A good heart will bring forth good things, both old and new.

27jd, in all the posts you have made with me, you have never praised a single virtue, never given one particle of philosophical truth, or offred any insight on the good properties of wisdom, truth, or human perfection. Truly you are a shaitan, and you are unable to be anything but this.

If you think a filthy person, a murderer, a thief, and a follower of shaitan is equal to a perfect man of truth, you are a deluded man of great madness. If you think the lifestyle of vice and hedonistic body-worship is equal to that of the philosopher or the pious, you are also in great error.

Why don't you prove me wrong by giving us a little praise of virtue? Or how about a brief passage honoring the wisdom of sages, or the piety of philosophers, and how they have built up this grand world for you to live in?

Did you think this world was built by evil minded men? Did you think Liberty and progress was the work of shaitan and his horde of slaves? Evil cannot build anything at all, it only consumers and destroys and devours. Good creates and enjoys its creation. The two cannot ever be considered equal.

It is not sound reasoning to say that the perfect and the imperfect are equal. How do you reason this way? Evil is caused by the corruption of perfection. Good is not generated from evil. But what was good CAN become evil. There is no equivalency between the two. Therefore any equality between good and evil is an invalid equation.

Evil in human beings is when the powers of the mind-spirit collapse and become filled with demonic material. That is the CORRUPTION of a once perfect being. Evil dwells in the lower regions, they are not in the higher regions. The higher regions do not require the existence of evil, there is no connection between the two.

It is the pride and arrogant spirit that innundates the servants and followers of evil that makes men speak this way. It wants to justify its own existence, and make itself seem great, but in truth it is not. You evil ones are all joined to eachother, your personalities are mere illusions, and you have no real claim to equality with Good.


The arrogance of evil souls always amazes me - they are the same husks generation after generation - just bodily houses for the same bitter spirits that leech their existence from the living beings they are able to invade and occupy. They say the same things over and over again, their awareness limited by the eternal law of the universe to the same gritty level of their world. Your ways are not ever comparable to the ways of good, you are not equal in knowledge, nor are your works able to be compared to the good.

As I have said, give us your creed, instead of leeching off of the comments of others here. Give us an original statement so that we can see what you are.

Arkaleus

You never disappoint, holy one! There's the biblical rant to which I was referring, you perform like a dolphin at Sea World. I would throw you a fish if I could. As for your request for me to bring an "original" idea to the discussion (which you quickly contradict yourself by requesting a passage from one of your holy books, how could that be original?), my original ideas would never be accepted by somebody as closed-minded as yourself. My idea of evil, is when somebody knowingly and intentionally harms another living creature, not the personal festive activities a person may partake in. I will not just repeat passages from books others have written, others like yourself who wish to be viewed as a prophet, and have their specific ideas strictly adhered to, or else those who don't be viewed as evil and their deaths justified by that "prophet", the true evil one. You are not holy, Arkaleus, you are the TRUE Shaitan, and those like yourself who view themselves to be so righteous, that they have the right to judge their fellow man, and even pass the sentence of death in the name of "righteousness". I denounce you, and all other false prophets, may you be judged by whichever god you presume is incompetent to judge your fellow man in death, so you judge in life. And may you be judged for your lust to be viewed as pure and holy, when you are just a man that has, I'm sure, partaken in the culture you view as evil, go fill up your gas tank in your used car Arkaleus, feed the war machine you denounce.

By the way, just curious, do you think the beheadings of those kidnapped in Iraq are justified?




[edit on 20-9-2004 by 27jd]

Arkaleus says,

27jd, You are a quite a little devil. You seem to enjoy finding buttons to push and annoying me.

This is the only thing ill agree with you on, and only because it amuses me.
However, ill have to come to 27jd'd defense on this issue...(if you can believe that 27jd...)

It is not so much that good and evil are equals...but how do you judge one without knowing the other?
It is a scale of measurment...at what point do you slip from good to evil?
Is some evil more evil than others?
burgulary vs robbery...
assault vs murder...
Is some good more than other good?
giving $$$ to charity vs actually volunteering time to the charity?
saving a life by calling 911 in time or personally doing mouth to mouth to save the same person?

Who gets to decide where the good/evil line is?
(id say the majority in a democratic society, and i know 27jd doesnt like that answer because indeed it leaves the door open to allow that society to choose "wrong".)

Ark claims,

Evil does not proceed from good. Good is by definition whole, complete, and self-sufficient. Evil is the corruption of good, and it cannot create its own increase, but requires the fruit of the good to continue to exist.

Good and evil are 2 sides of the same coin...they are NOT seperate...obviously evil can create itself as lucifer willfully chose to go against god...he got himself kicked out of heaven by telling god...no im not going to cow tow to man, im a higher being than man is...he was jealous of mankind and the place god put us over the angels...Lucifer and his followers then waged war vs god and was expelled from heaven to hell....
this all took place in heaven....so evil in essence came out off heaven....
if lucifer is the devil, then who tempted him to defy god in the first place?
It was because god does not create puppets, he creates free spirited beings...lucifers free will got him into serious trouble.
god often talks about "free will" you must choose to follow jesus (in this case) as your savior, and ask forgivness. this is your choice.

I am not taking a stand that i enjoy evil or support it over good.
BUT,
to say god is great and everything without acknowleging that evil is also out there is blind faith.

Ark says,

Many of you modern Americans have taken this perversion of eastern religion and taken it to mean that you can live in any manner you desire, because good and evil don't matter, and no one can judge you. This is the fire of fools.

Now 27jd knows that i dont agree with an anything goes, do whatever as long as it doesnt hurt anyone else mentality....Im with you there Ark...
BUT
indeed by christian ideology...noone here CAN judge you, as they are as flawed as you...even if they live an exemplarary christian life...
we are all born as sinners and die the same way...

The fact is, that if you truely repent and ask jesus for forgivness, then even as you hang on the cross for murder...close to death, if you ask him honestly...YOU WILL BE FORGIVEN!
Now this is not a license to go out on an "evil" rampage.
But it does show that god understands that we cant help but sin.

So keep your holier than thou attitude to yourself sinner. You are no better than anyone else here.
Even if you do repent and will be saved...cursing and condemming,and not showing infinate love, compassion, and forgiveness to those that are"misguided" or not saved isnt living as a christian, its living as a sinner.

Ark questions 27jd,

You seem to comment on almost every post that you are a dope smoking fornicator. Is this a noble thing to become, little brother? Well I spoke when I called you a shaitan.

Yeah dope smoking and yeah fornication...(man i supported 27jd twice in one post...where is the real CazMedia?...:lol
Lets look at these 2 vices ark...

dope smoking, ohh you mean the natural plant that god made? didnt god tell man that all the plants and animals were his to use/manage?
god made weed, man made cocaine....ill chose gods natural way any day...
heck, didnt jesus himself turn water into wine for a wedding party?
what does this imply about the vice of drinking? (moderation is the key)

fornication, well now i understand the ramifications of wild random and frequent fornication,....there is a down side
BUT
god put into man the drive, the urge to "go forth and multiply"
well im dam sure gonna try to follow gods command there...
now if we cant control ourselves, thats our fault, but god created this feeling in us....he knew what he was doing i think. again, moderation is the key....
What if he fornicated with his wife every day in every mutually pleasurable way? would that be a sin? or is it just when its out of wedlock, or forced, or what? at some point fornication is good, at some point its evil...but where is the line and who decided it?

ark closes,

You never post any wisdom here 27jd, you merely pick at the fruits others offer. Away, black crow, you are a pest and a vermin-snatcher.

Becareful, this is definatly jdgmental, and is borderline outright a personal attack, which would violate this boards policies....
no you didnt actually directly say27jd wes a pesty, vermin snatching bird, but it was certantly implied.

Try less vehemance in your debates, you might actually find another person to try and show you pitty, compassion and attempt to understand you.
(Ohh the flack ill get for even trying to accomodate you)

Whoa!

CazMedia, the conservative and 27jd, the liberal are tag-teaming Arkaleus, the religious fundamentalist...

This arguement should be in the hall of fame!

Where are our resident socialists and Communists? Once they've thrown their hats into the ring, this debate will be like a WWE Cage Death Match...

The fact remains that Ark's approach is bogus and self defeating.

Honestly I think he is doing it to be a troll, one that might not even be welcome in Freeperland.

He fails to address the idea I set forth, which is uncontestable, and continues on with the rediculous retoric.

CrazyJethro:

Love myself? Very well. I do. I love what I have become. I love what I have developed within myself. This is because it is the reflection of God that has appeared in me.

That's about all I can squeeze out of your rather brief epiphany.

As for the other two guys:

27jd doesn't really debate, he eats the dead corpses of argument and vomits up opposition to whoever he believes challenges his "right to exist" as he wills. You do not have a right to your lifestyle. You succeed in it only for a short time. Pursuing fools and their words is like chasing the devil.

CazMedia:

You sound like every other derelict man-boy that ever washed out of western civilization. Gimme gimme gimme, your desire is all you know. Your words about vice make Jesus into your personal pimp, or drug dealer, and then you think he will provide an excuse for your wasted life. Get a clue and raise your face out of the dungpile. What you promote is nothing but the trash-values of a fallen civilization.

I don't care about weed or the pipe you smoke it in. An enlightened man will see God and rejoice in his thoughts on Cannabis, Cocaine, LSD, Mushrooms, Amphetamines, whatever. I have smoked copious amount of the best San Franciscan green Haight Street has to offer, so it's a subject I am well qualified to comment upon.

I entered religious ecstasies when I took this substance. It has been used this way for thousands of years. Indians laud the herb as the main ingredient of the Elixir of Immortality, favored by Indra, King of Heaven. Bhang is regularly consumed by the Indian sages, but this is all just bullcrap. It's not the key to much of anything except fat and lazy lifestyles.

If you are an ignorant and vulgar person, getting high is a vulgar and ignorant experience. Do I care about it? No. Do I think highly of it? No. I've already sampled the fruits of the forest, and now I've left the kingdoms of the beasts.

Are you still living there? It sounds to me like you are. Deer love to eat cannabis too, and nothing is as fun to a monkey as fornication. Is that what you love? Then you are comparable to monkeys and deer. Do monkeys and deer receive honor and dignity from anyone? Are their noises and calls recorded in the books of men for his learning?

The Intellect of Enlightened men is the best of things on this earth. Do you possess it? Or do you call what you do in this life "Liberty?" Do you think that is Liberty? You are drunken slobs.

I have repeatedly challenged YOU GUYS to give us a praise of some virtue, you can pick any of them. Or a praise of some great figure in history, and why his example is to be honored. Or a judgment of some current matter in the world, with an analysis of the virtues and evils of those who are performing in it. Are you able to do these things? If you are not, then you should be considered an illiterate person.

Just "reporting the facts" is not sufficient to demonstrate intelligence and insight. Prairie Dogs too have a system of communication to relay threats and conditions of their environment. Men have demonstrated far greater perception and eloquence even in primitive times.

Are you able to praise the truth and speak it always? Or is this just another thing to be bent and twisted to your whim? Truly, it is your own whim that you hold inviolate. Your own understanding and your own will is your law, but whenever a greater power threatens you, you cave in like a house made of sand, and obey whomever holds the boot over you. Are you to be praised?

Valor, Truthfulness, Faithfulness, and Manliness are immortal virtues. How can you ignore them your whole life? Comment upon these if you are able, I DARE YOU.

Arkaleus

[Edited on 23-9-2004 by Arkaleus]

You make Jesus into your personal pimp, or drug dealer, and then you think he will provide an excuse for your wasted life. Get a clue and raise your face out of the dungpile. What you promote is nothing but the trash-values of a fallen civilization.

Wow. I was thinking I wanted to get in on some of this, but there's no way I could top that. I can't even say who I agree with, but this little tidbit kinda echoes with me. Bravo with the liturgical flourishes!

Ark, you take my meaning of "loving yourself" too lightly. The fact that you have disire, anger, and all the other human flaws betrays you as that is the cause of all that ails mankind.

It is the root of all evil, the doorway within the devil can enter us (to make it more to your understanding).

Dispite that, you condemn and distain, an action that defeats your arguement. If you hope to do good, you would be well advised to keep your heat under wraps and develope a thing called understanding.

You seem to think I am some kind of Western Fundamentalist.

Think what you will of me, I am not diminished, nor are you increased.

"Loving yourself" has no meaning to me. It is not found in any of the learned volumes of the wisest of philosophers, None of the Vedas regard the love of self as a virtue, And Christ who is the most wise commentator upon Love did not say "Love yourself," but he said, Love God, and One Another. Your words sound like silly pride.

Your philosophy is carefully weighed. My understanding is excellent. I have no difficulties in comprehending a matter. Perhaps you should excersise your fingers and develop your thesis about "love yourself." What does this mean? How it is applied? What is the proof of this "virtue?" How is it rewarded by the Universe?

Arkaleus