Once again Arkaleus jumps from a ideological rant against war to a ridiculous theological rant which I believe has no bearing upon a discussion of Iraq unless you believe that we are in some sort of CRUSADE against Islamic nations.

Arkaleus you always lose me when you drift into these religious scriptural ramblings, because they are incoherent and usually have no bearing on the topic at hand. I agree with you about many points on the war but as soon as you bring religion and the wickedness of everyone on earth other than yourself you really alienate yourself and lose the coherence of your argument, other than that I agree with the lies and deceit of the present government and the wickedness of an unjustified war.
Cheers, and try to be a little more secular sometimes, remember EVERYTHING in moderation even religion.
jawapunk


And another thing, before I forget it, We understand the fact that Arkaleus is a Christian, but are we?

I personally am not a practicing Christian, but I must pose these questions, How does that make me somehow inherently immoral. You say that we are all just blind sheep, followers consumers etc.... but really what are you if you truly are a Christian? Can you prove to me that God exists, isn't faith in itself a blind following? And how can you possibly assume that because I/we are not practicing Christians that we are in league with the devil? Also, you believe in the devil?? WOW
What about unicorns and leprachauns, fairies and orcs, aren't they just as plausable??

[edit on 15-9-2004 by jawapunk]

[edit on 15-9-2004 by jawapunk]

Jawa, Arkaleus is not christian, he is a mormon converted to Islam. He for some reason tries to hide that he is muslim, I'm not sure why he does that. But he does lose everybody when he starts passing judgement on our lifestyles, however I do agree with him about the war also.

My avatar is Thoth. Thoth is the god of learning, wisdom, and language. That's the form I take when I speak the truth. The Egyptain word for truth is MAAT.

Silly modern "Christians." There is no boundary between faiths. If you are a true Christian, then you can seemelessly move between the different creeds, languages, and books. This is why I confuse folks like 27jd, who don't understand how a person can use two different langauges at the same time, or be a Christian, but speak the words of Muhammed. I speak what is truthful, not what is repeated.

The conflicts between faiths and cultures is completely artificial. It is created by evil men who establish earthly kingdoms, and then go to war to establish their earthly domains over everyone else. That is the reason why we are in Iraq right now.

If we were REALLY fighting to "establish democracy" then we should declare war on China tomarrow. China is a tyrannical power, it is a communist, athiest state that oppresses and murders its own people too. Ever hear of a re-education prison? All of us writing in this forum would be sent to one for the things we say. But no, our federal government is buddy-buddy with Red China, they trade billions of dollars in goods, and play all nice with the red tyrants of the east. So don't try to tell me our government is the white knight, trying to clean up after big bad Saddam, who was so terrible to his people. What about Africa? They are evil over there too, and a lot of them are muslims. Why don't we attack them next, since they are killing whole tribes over there. It's all bullcrap, boys.

Cmon boys, wake up. We aren't fighting to establish good in the world. We aren't going to war to remove tyrants, or to establish democracy. That's the hayfeed you are getting so you go along with the herd.

I get so angry with Americans who think that going to war is like talking about the weather, or the ball game. Lets take a look at our "enemy". The Iraqis and the Mujhadeen know bloody well the kind of war machine they are going to face. They know that if they resist they are going to be slaughtered, maimed, and brutalized in every way by the USA. These are men with faith, beliefs, and souls. They are men with sons, wives, and homes they try to build, just like us. You'd better have a good goddamn reason to go and kill human beings before you start slaughtering men in war. Did this president have a good reason to go to Iraq? Was American Liberty and our way of life in grave and immediate danger from Iraq? Of course it WAS NOT.

Is our way of life in any danger at all, even from Al Qaida? No! Terrorism has existed in the world for 100 years. Our culture did just fine all that time. The News media pumped it up so big, that it seemed like the whole universe was coming to a jarring halt, and this frightened the chickens so much that everyone freaked out. Then our genius president decides that the threat is so great to America that we need to go and kill thousands of men, women and children, and conquer TWO nations. Is Bin Laden caught? Is terrorism extinguished? No, but there's a lot more graves in the ground.

These wars are being used as targets of opportunity by the corporate globalists, and their trilateral wet-dream of global economic slavery and interdepence. That is who is behind them, and that is why these wars cannot be justified.

Those of you who are so convinced that these people are our enemies are being duped into preparing the way for your own global slavery, and for your childrens'. That's why I get so furious at your mindlessness.

You want to take the war to me, personally. Don't give me advice on my judgments, paunchy. I would rather you added your judgments to my own, directed at the same issue, rather than mindlessly serving the will of the powers of the world.

Arkaleus

[Edited on 16-9-2004 by Arkaleus]

OK then, I guess you are not muslim, you are multi-faith, some people choose one, some choose none, and you choose all, I guess that's just as valid. We fully agree on the war and the evil government, it's when you pass judgement on others lifestyles that you lose friends, I respect your religious beliefs, although I do not share them. I believe in higher power, just not the way people who are happy to swallow what is fed to them do. But I still respect their beliefs and expect the same from them. I believe all the religions we see today are just as corrupt as the government, there are heirarchys and power struggles, etc. So I choose to keep my spiritualty within. But as far as this corrupt war and the killing of innocent Iraqi children and civilians, and the corruption in our government, I'm with you.

That makes me happier by one degree.

Here's the thing 27jd, I don't see how you can separate the typrical hedonistic American lifestyle from this evil war. You see, this war is entirely caused by the evil lifestyles certain Americans want to promote. It is a war created by the very same corporate monsters that form the infamous trilateral group. It is those guys that are creating the current American culture. So how can you denounce the war, but defend the true authors of it?

You must take a good look at who is running America, and their motivations. Take an intelligent look at them, dead in the eye. Do you want to keep obeying them? Take nothing at face value, man. These people care abosultely NOTHING for the American people. They care nothing for human life at all. They are the most demonic, self-worshipping people ever to rise to power. Do you still want to remain calm and loyal?

Many of you will say you are all kinds of rebels, and down with this and that. But I know that when it comes right down to it, you are all a bunch of labia-whipped soft serves. You will do anything for their money, and their goods. Many of you will complain about everything, but when it comes time to lick the boots of the new global masters, you will have your tongue out and ready. I dare you to prove me wrong. I hope you do. But I know human nature better, and I know Americans best of all. They don't have the spirit anymore to resist and overpower their own government and replace it with a less corrupt solution. Remember the States? Each is a sovereign republic. The Federal government has stolen its power from the states by force and fraud, and the punishment for thieves is to be hung in the noose. Isn't that right, Ancient and Respectable sirs who founded our republic?

Arkaleus the Insufferable American Libertine.

[Edited on 15-9-2004 by Arkaleus]

Originally posted by Arkaleus
Here's the thing 27jd, I don't see how you can separate the typrical hedonistic American lifestyle from this evil war.

Well, it's a matter of perspective I guess, I believe this evil war is orchestrated by the neo-con warmongers, not people who smoke weed, have sex, and generally live life the way they choose. If anything, people like me who you call hedonistic, are the ones most against the government, and most against war. I don't drink or smoke ciggarettes, I do smoke weed sometimes but guess what, the government doesn't get a penny of that money, unlike alcohol or ciggarettes.

You see, this war is entirely caused by the evil lifestyles certain Americans want to promote.

Yeah, right-wing Republican warmongers.

It is those guys that are creating the current American culture. So how can you denounce the war, but defend the true authors of it?

Not my culture, those guys oppose my culture almost as firmly as terrorism.

You must take a good look at who is running America, and their motivations. Take an intelligent look at them, dead in the eye. Do you want to keep obeying them?

Obviously I don't obey them, right?

They are the most demonic, self-worshipping people ever to rise to power. Do you still want to remain calm and loyal?

Agreed, but how do you mean remain cam and loyal? By going to work and buying food? I'm sure you do these things to, I'm sure you do not hunt for your own food or farm your own crops. Obviously you give the government money, you have the internet, so you must pay a provider, who pays the government.

Many of you will say you are all kinds of rebels, and down with this and that. But I know that when it comes right down to it, you are all a bunch of labia-whipped soft serves.

I do love labia. Anyway, what do you suggest? How do we revolt without upheaving our very existence? Change must come, but it must be gradual.

You will do anything for their money, and their goods. Many of you will complain about everything, but when it comes time to lick the boots of the new global masters, you will have your tongue out and ready.

Can you honestly say you consume no goods? Besides the internet of course. And no, I will never lick the boots of the new global masters, the only support they get from me are the taxes they take long before I see my paycheck. I would piss on their boots if given the chance.

The Federal government has stolen its power from the states by force and fraud, and the punishment for thieves is to be hung in the noose. Isn't that right, Ancient and Respectable sirs who founded our republic?

Like I said, I advocate gradual change. What is your suggestion, all out war against the federal government? Are you aware of the massive crisis that would ensue? Food supplies, water, electricity, fuel, etc. would all be in short supply. Chaos would reign. This country has no more natural resources for the most part, so hunting and farming for food is pretty much out. This year I will fight the war by voting for Kerry, the man most likely to bring our troops home, then I will support third party candidates at the local levels and push them up the ladder, hopefully we can unseat the two parties that way, and save the lives of innocent children and civilians in the meantime.

Wow, so much to say, so little time .

Akaleus, you sure judge quickly, and are fast to condemn, or "curse" for someone who speaks out agianst that kind of thing. You speak about the children with their hands blown off, and the horrors of war, yet you are constantly speaking of cursing people, and other things of the like. Nobody likes war. I hate war, but sometimes it is needed. You're a christian, so of course you would know of the apocolypse, the war between angels and demons, and the countless numbers of people that God's killed (Of course, he's God...so he CAN judge). So, of course, you would admit that war is justified in some cases. I'm a christian too,by the way. You seem to put yourself above everyone else, Arkaleus. Yo might say something like "Yes, why should I put my self down?". You shouldn't put yourself down, but that doesn't mean that you should think that you are better, and more "enlightened" than everyone else. You're not.

See, I hate these stupid phrases "brainwashed and blinded by the media". Who are you to say who's been brainwashed? How do you know that you are not the one being brainwashed? In fact, most of the media is liberaly biased now adays. Alot of liberals and anti-war people say that they speak out against being close-minded and judging people. It is they that are most likely prone to constantly saying that their opposition is dead-wrong, evil, arrogant, and stupid. It is they that are least likely to see the other side of the coin.

Cazmedia, keep up the good work . You said most of what I was going to say for me already... Sorry, I have to end this short because I have to go pick up my sister from her stupid dance-class...

So then. . .

You readily perceive that you are "stuck in the system." Don't you see that you by this very condition serve the powers that are the authors of the system? You might not like them, but you march to their tune.

The key is not chaos, rebellion or war. The key is to free yourself from the desires and impulses and behaviors that feed their war machine. Their entire mepire is built upon the greed, lust, and desire of the people for material wealth. These are the true enemies of the human race, and of the human spirit.

People who remove these vices (Yes, these are VICES) from themselves are not inclined to war. War to them is no longer a tool of political gain, for material is not the purpose of their lives. War has always been the work of the materialsts and the demons.

War is waged by heaven too, but it is only when the corruption of this realm reaches a critical point. When the corruption of the world threatens to upset the functions of life and the immutable process of man-become-god, then heaven raises its war banner and proceeds from the throne and falls upon the lower places.

Is your war in Iraq like them that proceed from heaven? Are you able to produce the judgment similar to them in heaven? How then, do you then go to war, without a godly purpose? Without one, you are commiting evil.

Don't you understand yet you rich and powerful people? You are claiming the throne of God for yourselves, seeking to rule the whole world! You are making yourselves God in the judgment of life and death, you have put yourself in the place of God for the people to worship.

I see what you do, and I hate it.

Arkaleus

Originally posted by Arkaleus
So then. . .

You readily perceive that you are "stuck in the system." Don't you see that you by this very condition serve the powers that are the authors of the system? You might not like them, but you march to their tune.

Don't you understand yet you rich and powerful people? You are claiming the throne of God for yourselves, seeking to rule the whole world! You are making yourselves God in the judgment of life and death, you have put yourself in the place of God for the people to worship.

I see what you do, and I hate it.

Arkaleus

Why are you trying to convince people of being morally wholesome while looking down at them.

That's symtematic of judgement my friend, and the final call on that is gods. You can not understand God, nor his intentions, desires, and purpose for the creation of this world with or without the retoric.

So let's break it down. Almost all religions teach of living as an example, which is impossible because we are human.

The problem is being human. Can you answer one question?



What is the root of all our problems?

originally posted by Arkaleus
Their entire mepire is built upon the greed, lust, and desire of the people for material wealth. These are the true enemies of the human race, and of the human spirit.

Is that what you think? And Saddam's regime wasn't based off of these things? What do you suggest we should have done, let Saddam go on with what he was doing to those people? Let the terrorists further, destroying other people? Your theorie works, until you consider the fact that everything isn't black and white, and that there is more than one evil, one good. Don't you think that people should take matters into their own hands and try to stop people from doing wrong? You seem to be quick to judge what is right or wrong, why not other people?

Arkaleus-

I was going to quote you on several points, but you're so long-winded and obtuse that it would be too unwieldy.

I will distill things down for the sake of brevity:

We are in a "Kill or be killed" war of US versus "Them". I choose US. That, de facto, means we must kill "Them".

Ugly and brutal? Yes. Blood-drenched? Probably. It has been thus since the dawn of time regarding human warfare, and will probably continue to be so for the foreseeable future. Modern warfare is especially callous and impersonal compared to that in the past due to advances in technology.

I would rather meet a man in single combat face-to-face with swords than blast him and his entire unit to oblivion with a single "smart bomb" from the cockpit of an F16. My personal preference is irrelevant, because such is the nature of modern warfare. I will do whatever is necessary to survive while at the same time destroying the enemy as quickly and ruthlessly as possible.

Those are the simple hard facts of the matter. As the saying goes, "Wishing it's so don't make it so".

We are fighting religious fanatics who are willing to fight to the death against us. We must be willing to do the same, and have both the will and the means to prevail, even if it requires the utter and total slaughter of our opponents.

If you doubt what I say, just remember 9/11 and the fact that those criminals were on suicide missions and didn't plan on coming back. The 4th plane never made it to its intended destination solely due to passengers with resolve equal to that of the hijackers. They did what was necessary, as unpleasant as it was.

So will we, no matter how unpleasant.

I wish it could be different, but it can't. That's simply the way it is.

We are in a "Kill or be killed" war of US versus "Them". I choose US. That, de facto, means we must kill "Them".

Ugly and brutal? Yes. Blood-drenched? Probably. It has been thus since the dawn of time regarding human warfare, and will probably continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

Did you pull this out of an eighth grade world history textbook? "Since the dawn of time regarding human warfare", that is terrible english and is completly wrong. Twentieth and twenty-first century warfare has far higher kill ratios and casualties than any other period of human history. In fact many of the so called bloodiest battles during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries usually only accounted for a 20% casualty rate, and casualty is not necessarily death. And those figures are twenty percent of a MUCH smaller army than of that we have today. So your little THEORY on the dawn of human aggression is falacious and utterly pedestrian.

I do agree with your assumption that technology has aided humans in making war a bloody business, but I disagree that war needs to include civilian populations. If terrorists are too cowardly to face the Americans on a battlefield, then fighting them with an army may not be the correct tactics to use. The American entry into Iraq has been a complete failure even in it's so called victory.

list of Victories:
a) the creation of a whole new generation of Iraqi militants and terrorists.
b) confirming many of the precepts spouted to muslims by Osama Bin Laden about America.
c) spending nearly 100 billion dollars(and still counting) on a war that quite assuredly can't be won using conventional means.
and many many more..... congratulations america, you win.....NOTHING!

If you doubt what I say, just remember 9/11 and the fact that those criminals were on suicide missions and didn't plan on coming back. The 4th plane never made it to its intended destination solely due to passengers with resolve equal to that of the hijackers. They did what was necessary, as unpleasant as it was.

September 11 does NOT give the United States to attack and invade sovereign nations, and if you and your government continue to think and act on these ideals, then soon you will be without allies and perhaps a few more enemies to add to the huge list already. I mean seriously, you do realize that almost all the hijackers are Saudi citizens, not Iraqis right?? You do realize that Iraq never initiated any attack against the United States?

I am not saying I agree with everything Arkaleus says or the way in which he states his ideas, but the war against terror cannot be won, and the government of the United States is only trying to create fear and uncertainty within their own populace to consolidate their power and to keep all of you at home consuming consuming consuming... And if you think the war in Iraq is related to September 11th you are sorely mistaken. Oil prices rise, Stock exchange goes down..... Oil prices and oil markets secured..... stock prices go up..... you do the math, Iraq has one of the top 5 oil supplies in the world and the US economy is stagnant without cheap extractable oil, which a secured Iraq can provide.

[edit on 16-9-2004 by jawapunk]

i dont do this a lot now that i think about it... but it looks like i have $hit to say.

from Arkaleus
Destroy your TVs. Anyone who thinks it strange to not watch TV, know them to be an evil person. It is the chain you are bound with - BREAK IT.

quote from a like thinking mind: "oh, turn your head away from the screen, oh people, it wil tell you nothing..."

i dont watch tv at all really, besides for film viewing perposes, and all i can say is that its done me a lot of good. you start to do other things, some that matter more than what they want to show you. amen to this.

from Arkaleus
My people you are! I am an American. This is my country too. I was born here from the descendants of farmers, ranchers, and pioneers. I am not some wannabe native. I own my heritage. I cannot stand for this war, or the great tide of blood that is washing over the world. It is caused by evil, and you are twisted into serving evil if you serve this war. Can you call it good?

no it is not good, though its good to HEAR that you will not stand for it, but what exactly have you done, or are going to do about it? share and tell, then propose ways for ATSers on what you think can change things. so far you are just talking the talk.

from Arkaleus
You haven't defended the actions I have condemned, you have attacked me. I haven't done anything wrong. I have killed no one at all.

all the money anyone has ever earned, has in some way, gone to some faction or cause where people have been killed. we are all responsible, american or not. dry and fresh blood stains us all, or most at least.

from CazMedia
How soon we forget the DECADES of Americans that have been blown to bits around the world, our embassies, our millitary barraks, our ships, our neighborhood in NYC the 3000 lives lost in moments.

all sides lose. its more along the reasons for what and why. the actions of the US gov't over time had led to the occurence of such tragedies. it has been using its innocent people for a lot of misinformed and unjust causes. all out of self interest. it seems just today, with whats happening, but it would have all been unecessary. you have to dig to the source to see this.

from CazMedia
There are many reasons, but lets just touch upon 2 without getting verbose.
1 fanatical religion has tought them that we are evil...we dont even deserve to be converted to Islam...they just want jihad against us. Kill the infidels and take revenge for the crusades.
2 their poor and were not...basic greed.

1. there can be fanatical sides to all religions, and a lot are taught this to extremes i agree. however, a lot of them, as i can imagine have good reasons (ie: murdered families via bombings, etc). it all goes back to the american gov't and its self interests, and the factions it created/destroyed not to long ago. the root has been covered with supposed fresh injustices.

2. and america isnt greedy? wasnt greed for oil a speculation as to why this war is happening? dont you realise that as those who grow rich in your country, others plummet further into poverty? it has a mix like all countries, but its not and probably will nto bet any better.

from CazMedia
When is the last time ive seen Americans take a school full of foriegn hostages and then shoot naked fleeing children in the back?

americans have dropped bombs on civilian buildings in iraq, and yes many women and children have died. the only difference is that america is made to come out looking like the hero. isnt this the equivelant of what you just asked??

from Arkaleus

(insert a whole lot of prosecution here)

I am a proper American Citizen. I claim my right to speak against your damnable wickedness as a matter of public policy. You will wear the blood you have celebrated, by God in heaven you will wear your own gore.

(and a little more here too...)

I am a Christian. Are you?

no i am not a christian, so should i and everyone else here bow before you and your god?? i agree with your stance, but you dont seem to have a tolerance for any one elses beliefs. and if you are a true christian, i'd like to point out that not once have you spoken of love, in or out of it in that matter. your bluntness is effective, but your missing the greatest points of your teacher friend (love thy neighbour :cool . why should anyone listen to another person who breeds negativity in the sake of the betterness of mankind? that is why this thread, and many other processes like war will always go in circles. care to retort?

from FlyersFan
LIBERATION not invasion.
Liberation from the rape rooms,
mass murders, genocide (Kurds),
mutilations and tortures of hundreds
of thousands of innocent Iraqis by
Saddams regime. That's not invasion.

You said AGAINST the people. No.
FOR the people, not against the people.
Which most Iraqis wanted by the way.

AGAINST Saddams regime which was supplying
billions of $$ to terrorists including Hamas which
has murdered Americans in Israel. Against
Saddams regime that was illegally stealing
billions of $$ (with Koffi Annans son's help) from
the Oil for Food program, leaving his people hungry
while he built up his own lavish lifestyle and used
the stolen funds to supply terrorist entities.

this is where i cringe, as i agree with the supposed idea of liberation in some ways, but i dont agree with how its been handled. this all makes me wonder if there is ever a right way to go about it all. are we doomed to continued bloodshed, in order to free tormented souls?? can there be another way?? from what we've seen and done, there's probably nothing plausible minus a general conformity taken by all. thougts?

from soulforge
Well..what are supposed to do?

Wait...Try to feel the pain to those that have inflicted pain on us? Realize our capitalist evil, and look to our fellow world neighboras with compassion and open wallets?

make the US gov't acknowledge its past, what it has done to start remending wrong doings and fallen relationships between itself and "rouge" states.

from jawapunk
September 11 does NOT give the United States to attack and invade sovereign nations, and if you and your government continue to think and act on these ideals, then soon you will be without allies and perhaps a few more enemies to add to the huge list already.

right on jawapunk, if anything it should give the US gov't something to think about. like say, "why would they ever wanna hurt a country like us??" durp... think hard dubya, think real hard.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
phew that was a lot, especially for me i'd say. i have really enjoyed everyones input on this thread, keeps the mind rolling and consistantly throws you in and out of ignorance, which only helps us identify it, thus leading to the absence of it. if i seem to be stabbing at anyone in the comments above, nothing personal, just part of the flow in conversation. if anything tell me what you think, disagree or agree, for i could be wrong about a lot of things. either way, im gonna end this post with the lyrics to a song from my old friend jeff, only because i feel its relevant somehow and that i've been completely in love with his music as of recent times, hence my avatar . enjoy, dfh out.

"the sky is a landfall", (J.Buckley/M.Tighe)

Circle around the park, joining hands in silence
We watched the evil black the sky
The storm has ripped the shelter of illusion from our brow
This power is no mystery to us now.
Leave your spirit genocide, the cancer you won't remove.
We cast our funeral rose inside and bury the need to prove.
Well, our mutilation is to gain from the system.
Turn your head away from the screen, oh people,
It will tell you nothing more.
Don't suck the milk of flaccid Bill K. Public's empty promise
To the people that the public can ignore.
This way of life is so devised to snuff out
the mind that moves,
Moving with grace the men despise,
and women have learned to lose.
Throw off your shame or be a slave to the system!
We see you take another drag,
one more lost soul to raise your flag.
The sky is a landfill!
We see you take another drag,
We see you take another drag.
You like to dance to the rolling head of the adultress,
You sing in praise of suicide. We know you're useless,
Like cops at the scene of the crime,
With your steroids and your feedbag and your stable
and your trainer,
I`ve got a mail bomb for you, Mr Strong Arm.
Roll out the stones from all the cemetery homes,
For the violence of a nation gone by,
For the politics of weakness and the garbage dump of souls
That will now black the sky.
Their yellow haze and crowds of eyes
will plug up the mind that moves,
Moving with grace the men despise,
and women have learned to lose.
We'll share our bodies in disdain for the system.
Oh, we see you take another drag,
One nation bends to kiss the hag.
The sky is a landfill.
Oh, we see you take another drag, we see you take another drag.
I have no fear of this machine!

Originally posted by Arkaleus
So then. . .

You readily perceive that you are "stuck in the system." Don't you see that you by this very condition serve the powers that are the authors of the system? You might not like them, but you march to their tune.

Like I said, we're kinda forced to, how else do you propose we survive? We rely on the "system" to feed us and provide water. The only way to stop the current administration is by educating those who will listen that this war is not only unjust, but is also not a sterile video game like the whore media portrays it to be, and to get them to empathize and imagine their children on the business end of a "smart" bomb. We must also get people to realize the corruption of the two parties, and rally them to vote for other candidates, and if those candidates take office, let them know we will not tolerate them catering to special interests so the corruption does not return. But this must be done by conveying the message to the public in a professional and articulate manner, not by judging them and preaching it as a religious issue, most will not respond, or will respond negatively, as you have seen. That is not the way to further your cause, or help those poor Iraqi children, in fact it only harms the cause.

The key is not chaos, rebellion or war. The key is to free yourself from the desires and impulses and behaviors that feed their war machine. Their entire mepire is built upon the greed, lust, and desire of the people for material wealth. These are the true enemies of the human race, and of the human spirit.

So let me get this straight, if I stop living my life the way you disapprove of (i.e. smoking pot, having sex, etc.), the war will end? I don't think so, this is not what feeds the war machine, money feeds it, and the acitivities I enjoy give no food to the machine. Again, this cannot be a quest to force your religious beliefs on others, it must be a quest to find a common ground and work together to stop the war machine.

People who remove these vices (Yes, these are VICES) from themselves are not inclined to war. War to them is no longer a tool of political gain, for material is not the purpose of their lives. War has always been the work of the materialsts and the demons.

Again, you're just trying to force your values on others. That is wrong. You are entitled to your beliefs, and if you're right, you will be rewarded in death, but it is not your job to force others to believe as you do. Let them choose their own destiny, but in this life, let's put our differences aside and fight for what we both agree is right.







[edit on 16-9-2004 by 27jd]

This war began with a rather clear statement of values. A certain group of men said, America represents Satan's threat to our way of life, and the whole world is what they are after. We are going to fight it and die as martys.

That is what began this war. Someone took a look at America and said, it is evil you are doing, and we are willing to fight you and die in combat.

You still haven't quite figured out the connection between your lifestyle, and the powers behind America. Outside of this country, it is easier to see the connection. Dope smoking, drinking, and promiscuous sex is considered by every civilized nation to be a vice. It was considered a vice by our people too, before the "new system" took over. Do I want to kill you for it? Not really. But I wouldn't desire your way to become acecptable. I would rather it be against the law. I would rather it moved back into the shadows and socially unacceptable places it emerged from.

So I will ask you a simple question: What is Al Qaida all about? Why exactly do they want to attack America? Do they hate apple pie a lot? Do Levi jeans chaff them too much under their tunics? Or maybe it's the automobiles?

Of course not! What would make young men and entire populations want to go to war with America? What would emblazon their passon SO much that they are willing to KILL and DIE to overthrow it? It isn't something small. It's something big. They see what the authors of the New World Tyranny are planning for them, and they have chosen to die rather than live under their boot, and accept what they consider to be an abomination.

The problem is, you guys don't see anything wrong with America. Your damn fool pride prevents it. You refuse to see any evil. You refuse to judge America, you refuse to look at it straightly. But I can't blame the PEOPLE 100%. You were CONDITIONED to be this way. You were raised to be nothing but servile consumers, with no real knowledge of the workings of the world, or even our own country. I HATE the men and women that have done this to you. It was to serve THEMSELVES that they harmed my borthers and sisters. And now they want you to fight ME.

So here is where I stand, I love my nation, I love my people, but I see what these powerful people have turned you into. It stops here. You need to decide WHAT you serve, whether you are a slave to the system and do its bidding and fight ITS wars, or if you stasnd with your true brothers, who are fighting against the evil that is threatening the entire world.

As for those of you who say, "What are you doing?" I say without any shame at all: Everything I can in the circumstances I am in. I write, write, write, and speak speak speak. What else is there to do? I will write a book when I am able to , maybe more than one. That's the REAL American way. Use your Tongue, use your pen, not bloody bombs strapped on your belly, or bible thumping from the pulpit.

Arkaleus

[Edited on 16-9-2004 by Arkaleus]

Originally posted by Arkaleus
This war began with a rather clear statement of values. A certain group of men said, America represents Satan's threat to our way of life, and the whole world is what they are after. We are going to fight it and die as martys.

That is what began this war. Someone took a look at America and said, it is evil you are doing, and we are willing to fight you and die in combat.

I must disagree with you here, there are many countries that have far more relaxed value systems than America when it comes to what you consider vices, that is not the reason this war began.

Dope smoking, drinking, and promiscuous sex is considered by every civilized nation to be a vice.

Again I must disagree, if anything America is FAR more intolerant of these things than just about every other civilized nation, and the powers that you hate so much fight these vices, ever hear of the war on drugs? That's been waged far longer than the war on terror, so maybe you should take a look at which side you are really on.

It was considered a vice by our people too, before the "new system" took over.

I must disagree again, humans have been humans long before the "new system" took over.

Do I want to kill you for it? Not really.

Well thank you, I appreciate that. And religious fundamentalists upset me as well, but I do not want to kill you either, I would rather you live your life the way you see fit, and I'll do the same, you may not like some things I do, so I will keep them to myself, and you can keep your religious values to yourself. Where is the problem there?

But I wouldn't desire your way to become acecptable. I would rather it be against the law. I would rather it moved back into the shadows and socially unacceptable places it emerged from.

See that's not fair, I would not wish for your lifestyle to be outlawed, the world would be a very boring place if it weren't for diversity.

So I will ask you a simple question: What is Al Quida all about? Why exactly do they want to attack America? Do they hate apple pie a lot? Do Levi jeans chaff them too much under their tunics? Or maybe it's the automobiles?

That's actually 5 simple questions, but I'll answer them:
1/2. Al Queda is an Islamic fundamentalist organization headed by Osama Bin Laden, a former Saudi rich boy who was happy to accept the help of the great Satan USA to fight with the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan against the Soviets, and we were happy to help because, as you know, there was a Cold War going on at the time. We assisted them (Bin Laden) with weapons and training. Then, a guy named Saddam Hussein became angry with Kuwait because they were slant drilling for Iraqi oil, so he invaded. This worried Saudi Arabia so again, the great Satan was called on for help. But Bin Laden disagreed, he did not want U.S. forces on Saudi soil, so he proposed he mobilize the Mujahadeen he fought with in Afghanistan to fight Saddam instead (of course they would have been destroyed by Saddam's forces in the desert, no mountains to hide in), the Saudi's declined that idea which angered Bin Laden, and so he was exiled. It was the presence of U.S. soldiers on his homeland that angered Bin Laden, that is when he declared war on the U.S., it had nothing to do with our lifestyles. He may use that now as a "reason" for jihad, but just like Bush and his war in Iraq, it's personal, they both manipulate others to fight their battles.
3.Apple pie is delicious, and no pork, I doubt they hate apple pie.
4.Levi's under their tunics? That's a funny picture, I always thought they just "free balled" it.
5.They must not hate automobiles, they all pile into Toyota pick-ups and ride around with AK's and rocket launchers.

What would make young men and entire populations want to go to war with America? What would emblazon their passon SO much that they are willing to KILL and DIE to overthrow it?

Brainwashing! The same thing that you said has happened to us, they were CONDITIONED as well, just by different conditioners.

The problem is, you guys don't see anything wrong with America. Your prid prevents it. You refuse to see any evil. You refuse to judge America, you refuse to look at it straightly.

Um, I thought I have judged the powers that be, it's not America, it's just those in power right now, we will get them out. But America will never be what you want it to be, it is the land of the FREE, remember? You are free to live without vice, and I am free to bathe in it, the only judgement should come from whichever higher power you believe in, not from other human beings.

You were raised to be nothing but servile consumers, with no real knowledge of the workings of the world, or even our own country.

You never answered my previous question, are you not a consumer as well? Do you not purchase ANYTHING there in Utah? I highly doubt it, so you should use the term WE instead of YOU.

As for those of you who say, "What are you doing?" I say without any shame at all: Everything I can in the circumstances I am in. I write, write, write, and speak speak speak. What else is there to do? I will write a book when I am able to , maybe more than one. That's the REAL American way. Use your Tongue, use your pen, not bloody bombs strapped on your belly, or screaming from the pulpit.

If this is what you propose, how do you say we are all weak "labia-whipped soft serves", and refuse to stand against the government?
Writing books and bitching is not exactly the revolution you seemed to be calling for, or do you fancy yourself to be a prophet or a cleric who preaches violence, but has weak-minded young men do it for you, while you do nothing but preach from the safety of your place of worship? Writing books will do nothing to stop the war machine, nothing at all.













[edit on 16-9-2004 by 27jd]

Arkaleus nice post.. very open minded. I dislike nationalistic arrogance in any form. We are all simply humans no matter what "nation" we come from.


[edit on 16-9-2004 by RedOctober90]

Originally posted by RedOctober90
Arkaleus nice post.. very open minded. I dislike nationalistic arrogance in any form. We are all simply humans no matter what "nation" we come from.


[edit on 16-9-2004 by RedOctober90]

Open minded!?!??!? How on earth is this open minded!?!?!??!? It's filled with gross generalizations, and stereotypes everyone in America into one big, hedonistic catergory.

I see an entire population removed from reality

Yet you are completely numb to it, you see it only through the carefully manipulated eye of the TV. It is the TV that rules your entire awareness!

Anyone who thinks it strange to not watch TV, know them to be an evil person.

May George Bush jr. forever bear the curse of the Just and Honest God. May every soul in America who continues to support these wars after learning the truth, also be cursed with the same curse.

Maybe your definition of close minded and mine are different, I don't know. But mine certainly doesn't include declaring anyone who thinks it's strange to not watch T.V. evil... It also doesn't include CURSING everyone who doesn't share your point of view!

P-LEASE! *Does 3 snaps in a Z formation*

[Edited on 16-9-2004 by Herman]

I am not being excessive in my description. There is a television in every American home, and it is watched on average 6 hours a day. That right there, boys, is your PRIMARY SOURCE OF INFORMATION. You three or four guys responding to me might not watch it that much, but 300,000,000 other Americans sure as hell do, and some a lot more than 6 hours a day.

I am not a "consumer." I hate that title, it is just a euphemism for the corporate powers meaning "slave." I have no credit cards, I own my used car, I do not purchase anything on credit, I have no desire for material possessions as a lifestyle. I don't buy into the mass-consumer-culture tyranny of desire and greed. That's what's killing the minds of the people, turning them into dependant slaves to the system. That's how the Feds are able to issue such novel control over America. No one is free enough anymore to stand up to them. It's a psychological game. If you make a "free" people dependant on a system for EVERY aspect of their lives, then you OWN them. They won't admit it, but they will never resist you or your policies becauase of how deep they are in. Pretty soon they forget how to do anything for themselves, and then they are UNABLE to resist or change. Their children are worse off, and so on. So when the Federal government under GW bush wants to go to an unjustified war, no one stands up to him. Now we've already done it, we've killed, maimed, and conquered a whole foreign country. Are you ready to bear the aftermath, are you ready to bear the reality of it? Here it comes.

You need to look at this a little better. There weren't any public debates, there were just a barrage of news stories, and the outrageous repetition of the same horrific footage. You don't need to be a psych major to understand the effect on the psyche this will have. Kill Kill Kill. Once everyone got whipped up into a brainless frenzy of vengeance, we went to war. There weren't any real discussions, wisdom never got a chance to speak. It was just the mob and the manipulation of the mob by those who wanted to establish dominance in the middle east.

If the USSR had done this in 1984, there would have been WWIII. A lot of you are not able to understand that. The whole cold war to you is like ancient history. I was only 8 then, but I still understand it.

This is why the war in Iraq has no real justification. It was rammed down everyone's throats while they were still all good and bloodthirsty. Isn't warfare and bloody revenge part of a good American culture? Is it? Well that's what we're doing. Look at your hands, Mr. president. That's called Blood. You spilled a whole helluva lot of it, and you damn well better have good reason to have done so.

Those who want to defend the war in Iraq, I challenge you to reason with me. Removing a dictator and his murderous reign over the people is complete bullcrap. Like the Federal Government is in any kind of moral position in the world. Who wants to believe that the feds are white knights? C’mon my fellow Americans, you aren't that daft.

Going to Afghanistan Was justified in my book, but only marginally. Pursuing Bin Laden was a good reason to go there, but removing the Taliban was nothing more than part of the master plan of eliminating all national powers who had taken a stance against American-style cultural globalization. The Taliban were Religious students, faithful men, even martyrs for their cause. They were not all criminals, they were conservative religious folks who loved righteousness and purity. They are free to do that IN THEIR OWN GODDAMN COUNTRY. They lived in AFGHANISTAN. How can you justify AT ALL going into another country based upon your judgment of their culture, and killing their people to establish your own chosen powers? That is not the activity of an enlightened free state. That is the action of irresponsible tyrants.

Because of the Bin Laden situation in Afghanistan, I can overlook this somewhat. But when Iraq came next on the menu, I draw the line. There needs to be a really good reason for doing what we did in Iraq. What is it? There were no WMD's, there were no immediate threats to America. You guys are so smart, you figure it out. Don't support this war. Don't think that it was the right, American thing to do. It was an illegal action both under our OWN constitution, and in the eyes of the global system of LAW that the WEST helped to establish long ago.

As far as my writings are concerned, that is the most powerful weapon we have in our culture. We are the children of the enlightenment, the pen is what shaped out the nation from the beginning. It is the reason applied to paper and distributed under the freedom of the press that makes us great. We MUST Dissent. To refuse is to abdicate to the real evil, which is the tyranny of the United States Federal Government upon our minds, wills, and national direction.

Arkaleus


[Edited on 16-9-2004 by Arkaleus]

See Arkaleus, I agree with most of what you said there, there was no judging and persecuting those who agree with your opinion on the war, but not with your religious beliefs, and that is what America should be like, unified but diverse. I have already stated that the war in Iraq was wrong wrong wrong. And I'll even one up you by saying the war in Afghanistan was not fought correctly either, I think they dropped the ball big time and only dispersed most of the terrorists, whom I'm sure we'll meet again. And I of course also agree the government is f*cked, and needs an overhaul, and it will take time. About your credit cards and your used car, you buy gas for that car correct? You purchase food I'm sure, and if you don't live with your parents you pay for utilities and a mortgage or rent. I don't use credit cards either, they're a trap and you can never pay them off. Anyways, you are a consumer as well, or whatever you call it, and you feed the system too. It's impossible not to, unless you're the unibomber living in a shed in the woods or something, so I suggest you use your descriptive abilities to write books that will promote a logical way to change things. I know you don't always write biblical rants that only insult people instead of compelling them to consider things rationally. If you are going to write books, I suggest you respect peoples differences a bit more, you might gain more of an audience that way.

[edit on 16-9-2004 by 27jd]