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Is it good to be drenched in the blood of war?

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posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 12:37 PM
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When I look at my people, I see an entire population removed from reality, completely dominated by the will of the powers and the wealthy ones in America.

How many mangled children and innocent adults have been piled up in these wars? If it were your neighborhood being bombed, you would have a different opinion about the "war effort."

Maybe you should go see the little ones torn to bits, or the gore of mothers dying in the street after the bombs fall. These were human beings. Yet you are completely numb to it, you see it only through the carefully manipulated eye of the TV. It is the TV that rules your entire awareness!

Destroy your TVs. Anyone who thinks it strange to not watch TV, know them to be an evil person. It is the chain you are bound with - BREAK IT.

My nation is becoming a tyrannical monster. My people don't even understand what freedom and Liberty is, because they are so attached to a system of dependence. Yet they are "fighting" for freedom and Liberty. It is insanity. What on earth have we done these things for in Iraq? America has never before done such a thing! We invaded a country based upon an outright lie, and now the consequences are so great, that our people are just ignoring this inconvenient fact.

May George Bush jr. forever bear the curse of the Just and Honest God. May every soul in America who continues to support these wars after learning the truth, also be cursed with the same curse.

This war is to protect the interests of evil people, so that their evil ways might spread over the whole globe. When will you wake up and see this? You, the people, have been DUPED into supporting them, you have been manipulated by propaganda, lies, and media, just like in Nazi Germany. You stupid, foolish people. How wise and good you thought you were. You are truly an evil people.

It is extremely painful being an American and seeing my people take complete leave of their reason, good sense, and all sense of conscience. American news does not show the real story over there: American media is a very evil and corrupt part of this new power that is trying to establish its hegemony over the entire globe.

Don't be manipulated anymore! Stop being the slaves of these evil and wicked people. Stop mindlessly supporting these wars. I voted for George Bush in the beginning, but I can see he is a dangerous fool. Never again elect such a person to the white house, death and destruction follow at his heels.

I guess America can't pretend to be God's chosen people anymore. They are not. The powers in America can't pretend to be standing up for righteousness - that's just the lie they sold to the people. Stop buying the lie! These people are the most corrupt and evil hearted people in the WORLD. They desire nothing but slavery and bondage for you and your children, and you keep supporting them. You deserve the future you get!

How long will they be able to keep an entire country living in make believe? Do you think we can keep an economic boom cycle going indefinitely? Wake up, America, you are being cruelly used, and heartlessly manipulated to serve the powers of money, global interdependence, and the tyranny of wealth. Stupid people, look at what is going on. These people are being MURDERED for the sake of these evil people's global plans. Does this blood just wash away from you? You will reap the same seed you sow.

The republic is dead, and now this country is a monstrosity. It is a dragon's head, with many sharp teeth. It cares not for the rights of man, the dignity of nations, or the future, but just seeks to devour each and every person upon the earth, and make slaves of everything around. Look at it, America, and tell me that this country is righteous. Tell me what we have done is righteous.

Whatever is not righteous will be destroyed from the earth.

Arkaleus




posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 01:48 PM
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That my friend, was a rant from hell........do you feel better now?
I think their are more people out there that feel as you do except
they are afraid to say what you have just said, can't see it happening
or worse..........they don't care.

When the reaper comes..........................................................................



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 02:45 PM
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I cannot log off without commenting that this is the most useless drivel I have read in quite some time. Possibly one would be better living elsewhere? The good which exists in this great country, the USA, is totally and unequivocally overlooked in this pitiful rant. Shame on you.

Did you take your antipsychotic meds this morning?

Or were they anti-depressants you were on?



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 03:01 PM
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as mentioned by Arkaleus
When I look at my people, I see an entire population removed from reality, completely dominated by the will of the powers and the wealthy ones in America.


You lost me with the my people bit, until I read on.....thats cool.
Then I noticed that you 'clumped' anyone and everyone, of like country or nationality, together with the stereotypical word usage of entire population.....not cool.
Again, I then noticed that you love using words that deal in total absolutes, such as completely.....not cool.

Arkaleus.....Greetings.
First: You remind me of another past ATS entity.....hmm. That's cool.

Second: Please remember what I have quoted above from your rhetorical essay, for every time that you buy something with your money, you help keep those so-called will of the powers and the wealthy ones in control, k? That is not cool.

As to your righteous rhetoric, enlighten us with the just 'who' specifically decrees who and what is exactly "righteous" or not "righteous".....? Your rhetoric is emboldening, but as with any other type essays and writings of its like, lacks true conviction for the change that you so cry for and proclaim should be happening or happen. That is also not cool.

Peace.


seekerof

[edit on 13-9-2004 by Seekerof]



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by smokenmirrors
I cannot log off without commenting that this is the most useless drivel I have read in quite some time. Possibly one would be better living elsewhere? The good which exists in this great country, the USA, is totally and unequivocally overlooked in this pitiful rant. Shame on you.

Did you take your antipsychotic meds this morning?

Or were they anti-depressants you were on?



It is very sad that you are so blinded by patriotism and brainwashed by the media that you do not acknowledge the point here. Children are being mangled, even if by accident. Is that really the answer to the world's problems? If it were your children it would be different, right? Children are children, innocents are innocents, no matter what nationality. Imagine, your child (if you have one) mutilated, scared, confused and bleeding to death, this is the reality for many innocents in Iraq, it makes me sick how many of my fellow Americans discount life just because they are not American. You should be ashamed, there is NO good in war, even if it is war made by this "great country" the USA. Arkaleus I believe is wrong on many issues, but not this one, perhaps you should consider medications if you think killing children is OK, as long as they're in another country.

[edit on 13-9-2004 by 27jd]



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 05:00 PM
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I think the basic psychological reaction of any person or group caught doing something wrong is to become angry. Usually that anger is directed at those who point it out.

Nobody can stand by this war with the flag waving, horns blaring, and think it's good to stand for mom's apple pie, and baseball, and pickup trucks. That is the true sickness.

How can my fellow Americans can remove themselves from reason, from all human compassion, to justify their blind support for an act of INVASION and MURDER against a people who were not threatening or even trying to threaten America? That is the true sickness.

Here's a little boy with his hands blown off. Do you want to explain to him how kind and great America is, and how necessary it was for us to drop those bombs that blasted his tiny hands off of his body? Are you going to teach him to write, or to eat, or perhaps take care of his toilet? Perhaps you are afraid of facing the true analysis for the cause of this war, and you are caught in a great big lie. Just like the little kid who gets mad at getting caught doing something naughty, you are angry at me for telling the truth.

So angry you are at me for saying this - I don't have to put myself so far above you to make these statements. None of you can justify your support for these killings, bombings, and the general abuse of an ENTIRE population. It's just that your fantasy world of the American dream doesn't compute anymore, and you've become insane in your dereliction of your intellectual duty to the truth.

My people you are! I am an American. This is my country too. I was born here from the descendants of farmers, ranchers, and pioneers. I am not some wannabe native. I own my heritage. I cannot stand for this war, or the great tide of blood that is washing over the world. It is caused by evil, and you are twisted into serving evil if you serve this war. Can you call it good?

I am sorry if I lumped EVERYONE into my statements. Let's just say, it's ALMOST EVERYOBDY. What worries me is that people are afraid to oppose this. What reason do they have to fear? Aren't we fighting for the cause of freedom and our precious American traditions? Aren't those what the terrosists oppose? Why then, isn't it truth we are hearing? Why are we afraid of our own government? The true patriots are those who oppose this government, and this war.

Arkaleus

[Edited on 13-9-2004 by Arkaleus]



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 05:19 PM
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Ok, here's what I think.

I think you're a little off...

I mean, I have taken the time to educate myself on the injustices and inequalities of the Iraq invasion and occupation, but I do watch TV. I get a lot of my information from TV.

Look buddy, you just passed judgement on about 300 million people in an uncalculated, unreasonable rant. You have accused everyone in America, other than yourself, of being ignorant, ill-informed, evil, and some other things which are just nutty. Sorry bud, but we have brains too, and as far as I can see, a few of us here at ATS alone are using them more efficiently than you.

I understand that you feel bad about the loss of life that war entails. I feel you there. Iraq was wrong for so many more reasons than it was right, and I cannot disagree with you about it. But I'm afraid you would probably say the same thing had we engaged in a war that was just and right.

And as for your obvious religious bent on the issue, may I remind you that it is exactly that sentiment that gets us into situations like this in the first place?

Keep up the good work, I'll try harder.



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 05:59 PM
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Correct! I used my authority as a man, and a citizen, and I made a JUDGMENT. That is what men do. Real men. Real citizens. They don't just go along with the party. We aren't all one group-mind in America. We don't all just march to the TV tune like some of you.

You haven't defended the actions I have condemned, you have attacked me. I haven't done anything wrong. I have killed no one at all.

If you had to scrape the entrails of your little nephew out of his bedroom, would you still be so arrogant? What a crock of BS. I know exactly how you would be if the situation were reversed. You would be screaming and yelling, cursing and ranting. What a disgusting attitude you have towards human life. These are PEOPLE.

What values are we defending in this war? What exactly are we doing over there? Are you even able to give a clear answer?

What amazes me is how successful the federal government was in convincing an entire nation of the need for this war. There wasn't much debate about it, it was done without the approval of congress. Are you a constitutional scholar? Then you should be angry about that. This president went to war on his bloody own. Something is very very sick in Washington DC, when human life becomes secondary to the global plans of the wealthy and powerful. It no longer can be honored by this people, unless the people themselves are dishonorable.

How degraded your minds must be! You think this is a rant? You bloody well better believe it. It is a justified, totally honorable outburst from a brother citizen from Utah! If you have any shred of human decency, or Christian compassion, then you will be with me.

Damn you false Christians who support this filthy war. Damn you false patriots that know nothing more than the garbage streaming out of the radio and the TV. You are destroying the world, and ultimately yourselves.

Arkaleus



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 06:03 PM
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I'm pretty much in agreement with Arkaleus. However being an agnostic and not currently thinking there is anything to spirituality, curses won't go very far other than the words uttered.



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 11:13 PM
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Blame America....ohhh the poor children....were all evil and being CURSED by a fellow citizen....

Freedom isnt free, sometimes the price is high.

How soon we forget the DECADES of Americans that have been blown to bits around the world, our embassies, our millitary barraks, our ships
our neighborhood in NYC the 3000 lives lost in moments.

How soon we forget that MOREpeople are murdered in America every year...thousands more than the proud honored warriors that gave it all for others and for the AMERICAN way of life.
For your right to cry, whine and BOO HOO.

No one likes war....but guess what...it has been stalking us for many years bufore your devil BUSH was around, and we blindly just kept on going about our cush lives, ignoring the danger and hoping it would go away.

Well it didnt, and here we are.
Mabey those that want to destroy America will understand now that the war they wished for isnt really all that they thought it would be.
Perhaps they will see that losing their people and things is too high a price to pay for trying to attack the USA and end our way of life and freedom, in favor of a secular religious dictatorial regiem. Mabey they shouldnt have picked a fight they werent ready for.

I really only scanned thru your pathetic cowardly rant, it made me sick to see such cowardice and holier than thou attitude, DARING to envoke dark curses on us. What a defeatist attitude. what a sniveling give away of what America truely is and stands for...pull your head out of the sand and understand that doing NOTHING enables our enemies, not deters them.

Peace thru strength. Dont tread on the USA, spit on us, threaten us, and think that this is ok. If you want to protect those people over there GO MAKE YOURSELF A HUMAN SHIELD!
They will assault you on sight and cut off your head without a worry that you care about their children! They will be happy you were willing to give your life as a sacrifice to Allah...you make it easy for them to defeat you by your compliant surrender.



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 11:29 PM
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CazMedia,
I could not have said it better myself.
Good job.

I'll be voting for Bush in November.



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 03:52 AM
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Arkelaus I have only one thing to say to our resident prophet and righteous muslim.....
yadda yadda yadda.

and a question, how long before your mullah convinces you to strap a bomb to your ass and walk into the local mall? week? a month?

You have judged us, how long brfore you decide to pass sentance?



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by CazMedia
Blame America....ohhh the poor children....were all evil and being CURSED by a fellow citizen....

Freedom isnt free, sometimes the price is high.


That is true, the price isn't high, but anyone who does not FEEL about war is much like the rest of this country. Separated or detached. The idea that we could be living in a "war zone" is completely alien to almost all Americans, so obviously we can not expect them to understand. The media does not show the burned, torn, dismembered, or destroyed bodies of women and children.

But the inevitable "You can't make an omlet without breaking some eggs" arguement is complete and utter BS. While it may be true, it does what most media does now, strips the humanity from us, and enables Americans to only feel for us (being that we must be the only good guys around, right?).


How soon we forget the DECADES of Americans that have been blown to bits around the world, our embassies, our millitary barraks, our ships our neighborhood in NYC the 3000 lives lost in moments.


You don't have to forget the faces and names of those who wrongly lost their lives in those attacks, but that strengthens my side, in that we should also understand the loss of those who had little to do with the War in Iraq (among others). Are the crying mothers there less pained by the death of their family than one here? The obvious answer is no, but they are an evil people because the Channel 9 news doesn't show too much, nor do most want to learn too much either.


How soon we forget that MOREpeople are murdered in America every year...thousands more than the proud honored warriors that gave it all for others and for the AMERICAN way of life.
For your right to cry, whine and BOO HOO.

No one likes war....but guess what...it has been stalking us for many years bufore your devil BUSH was around, and we blindly just kept on going about our cush lives, ignoring the danger and hoping it would go away.

Well it didnt, and here we are.
Mabey those that want to destroy America will understand now that the war they wished for isnt really all that they thought it would be.
Perhaps they will see that losing their people and things is too high a price to pay for trying to attack the USA and end our way of life and freedom, in favor of a secular religious dictatorial regiem. Mabey they shouldnt have picked a fight they werent ready for.


Just a few points on this jingo-theme.

1) Please enlighten me as to how Iraq really threatened us.

2) Explain why middle easterners hate us, and/or why they want to "destroy us"


Peace thru strength. Dont tread on the USA, spit on us, threaten us, and think that this is ok. If you want to protect those people over there GO MAKE YOURSELF A HUMAN SHIELD!
They will assault you on sight and cut off your head without a worry that you care about their children! They will be happy you were willing to give your life as a sacrifice to Allah...you make it easy for them to defeat you by your compliant surrender.


Ah, no detraction of the US policy is allowed here folks! Give me a break, if you can't see that there is something desperately wrong here in the US, then there is little help for you at all.

Doing something for a just cause is one thing (which I don't really believe it was). Never-the-less, it's happened leaving room for continual war, which again will be under the banner of National Security.

One last question.

Did we do anything to warrent these attacks?

From my perspective, you have lost your focus, and if anyone is cowardly, it's you. I have my grief with Ark on almost everything (including his Ten Commandments commentary), but you seem afraid to feel, hiding behind anger or fear to justify your view. You don't have to actually experience the destruction and death, nor would you want to, so you are able to be bold here.

Get off your horse before you request it of others



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 12:01 PM
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KJ, its odd we would butt heads but,

Dont lecture ME about feeling the war, or being detatched or seperated.
As i work in the "evil" media i can say that ive personally interviewed family members of fallen soldiers, ive spoken with families of 9-11 victims, I lost my job on 9-12 BECAUSE of the war comming to American shores...I see ALL of the RAW unedited video straight off the satalites that indeed the average viewer would NEVER see, and i get into trouble all the time for questioning why we are sugar coating the news for the "sensative" viewers or to protect children from seeing REALITY. (you should be monitoring childrens viewing habits anyway and tv news should NOT be on the diet) Ive seen plenty of the bits of bodies, watched the still spurting blood spray from an injured person running by the camera, and heard the screams and terror of the scene that YOU'll never hear or see.
So from MY perspective...I understand FULLY the ramifications of what is transpiring.

This is not about "breaking some eggs" to accomplish some goal..its about making as SURE as we can that those pictures dont start getting taped HERE, in YOUR neighborhood.
Yes the media sanitizes these images, but if we didnt we'd hear the wailing of the people for being insensitive...you just cant win, so management errs on the side of civillity instead or reality. Write your TV stations and tell them you want to see the bloody carcasses and see what responce you get for being a "sick voyer". Youd be surprised at how many of us in the media try to buck the system EVERYDAY (Like Stern) to tell the truth and do more than just do tabloid, copycat, sound byte, sensationalistic crap and get back to real journalism.

There is NOTHING wrong with AMERICANS feeling for AMERICANS first!!!
If you dont, then exactly who are you placing before your fellow citizens and what does that say about loyalty, and support of ones HOME first?
Who will you sell us out to for a buck? (HINT HINT FRENCH GOV/FOOD FOR OIL)

War is unpleasant business, and NOONE is denying that suffering felt by truely innocent victims is any more or less that anothers. But unfortunalty war being the ultimate expression of diplomacy, at some point you must stand up for the ideals your putting on paper and giving lip service to. If you dont, you have nothing, just go ahead and surrender because your opponent has already broken your spirit, your will to resist their wishes.

KJ asks,


1) Please enlighten me as to how Iraq really threatened us.
Iraq was the second domino in the chain to fall behind afganistan...while PHYSICALLY Iraq was seemingly more of a threat before the war than weve discovered, they were NEVER a tangible threat to the USA....they were an IDEOLOGICAL THREAT.
How many decades of appeasment, thru stacking up paperwork, and paying lip service were you going to allow a tyrant before SOMEBODY had the guts to do what it took to ensure he didnt attack yet ANOTHER of his neighbors and threaten an already shaky situation that happens to be where the LIFEBLOOD of the planet is. (yes oil)
Saddam really believed that NOONE was ever going to actually DO anything about all the sanctions and cease-fire agreement he was under but had little effects on him. He was like a spoiled child that thought he could continue to defy the rules. OOOPPS..to bad for him he was wrong.

Letting this idea that this kind of behaivior will not have any reprocussions only FUELS people like saddam or hitler...hitler took 3 countries before the world war 2 "officially" started...europe tried appeasment and hitler just laughed and got ready to take more.

The idea that America is too scared, to weak willed, and too unwilling to take casualties and dish them out is an idea that has been rattling around the world since NAM....this enabled Osama to use indotronated, poor, uneducated masses to become suicide bombers and attack an enemy that they have been taught from early ages to hate. This idea has been festering for decades and the time has come to show some resolve and stand up against lawlessness, tyrany, and ideals that anr basically not civilized.

Hell 15 years ago a Japanese gov official said publically that Americans were fat and lazy....WELL LOOK AROUND....he was right!!!
Obesity has been climbing as a cause or contribution to death for years now...look at the low carb craze and the diet craze thats sweeping this country...ITS TRUE many of us are fat and lazy. (the 2 arent always mutually linked)
Again an idea that others either percieve or manufacture to use against us.

How many of these ideas should we let get around until someone else decides to take a shot at us fat slothful cowardly targets?
This is an ideological conflict as much as a tangible one.




2) Explain why middle easterners hate us, and/or why they want to "destroy us"
There are many reasons, but lets just touch upon 2 without getting verbose.
1 fanatical religion has tought them that we are evil...we dont even deserve to be converted to Islam...they just want jihad against us. Kill the infidels and take revenge for the crusades.
2 their poor and were not...basic greed.



Did we do anything to warrent these attacks?
Im sure weve done things that they strongly disaproved of, but this is an excuse for suicide attacks against civilians instead of government or millitary targets? When is the last time ive seen Americans take a school full of foriegn hostages and then shoot naked fleeing children in the back? This just the most recent example of total barbarism that generations of radical fundamentalist muslims have been programed for.
and its obvious that they will and are striking free people everywhere.

You say that the cost of engaging this plauge is too high (war) and we should not do anything to combat this agressivly, to break their spirits to use uncivilized tactics to disrupt the worlds stablity and basically hold us all hostage? We should not make it clear to other rouge states like syria, iran, n korea that indeed there is a concequence for continued defiance of the civilized world and speciffically actions against the USA?
Whimpy whimpy whimpy


Id rather be drenched in my enemys blood than that of my family...
better get busy living or get busy dying
ignoring this problem will not make it go away, even if it would, what price would we pay for this appeasment? i think that is too high a price to NOT take action.

Yes feel for the victims, but dont get soo lost in this emotion that you loose sight of why this is occuring OR the means to correct it.

[edit on 14-9-2004 by CazMedia]



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 12:37 PM
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When I close my eyes, I see the Kurd women and children gassed by SH.

This was reason enough to go to war.



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 01:14 PM
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I am ashamed of some of my fellow citizens. To hear the words coming out of your mouth, and to realize the kind of personalities you must have.

You are the products of a sick system. Your minds must be completely deranged and ill from the filth that is pumped into you from the workings of this satanic nation.

I haven't heard such blatant, coarse, and evil disregard for human suffering and war since the days of the SS and their reign of terror over Europe. You guys sound just like the rabid Aryan Nazis, "peace through strength." You might as well hoist up the crooked cross of the Fatherland and start wearing brown shirts. I am disgusted that you call yourself Americans.

One of you calls yourself a devil's advocate, which is sign enough of your nature. One would expect you to say foolish things all the time.

But as for those who think it is somehow "American" to destroy human life and overrun nations and populations, and turn their lives into hell, I will stand against you any day of the week, and bear arms against you as an enemy of the people of God, and civilized people over the whole world.

You sick people! You demonstrate the deep illness that has infected your minds. There are so many of you like this! It is terrifying once you realize how many Americans sound like you. You demonstrate the meaning of cursed. Afflicted you will be, forever. Every good thing will flee away from you in terror.

Fellow citizens, those of you who remain faithful to true reason, and to the real spirit of America and its peaceful progress and Liberty, you have a moral duty to stand up against these warmongering pigs. They are the bad products of a miserable system of psychological destruction, pathological consumers, morally corrupt and hedonistic slobs. These satanic slaves and those like them at the top are trying to spread this virulent illness into every nation.

This is the bold aggression of Satan, plain as day. These people are the slaves of this wretched demon, and their screeching words against me demonstrate the fierce cords with which their necks are held.

I am a proper American Citizen. I claim my right to speak against your damnable wickedness as a matter of public policy. You will wear the blood you have celebrated, by God in heaven you will wear your own gore.

You and your corporate gods, your gods of money and prostitution, your filthy idols of consumption and greed, these are your gravestones. Your justice will not come from foreigners, it will come from ourselves, those in America who cannot bear your evil any longer. One day you will be removed from this earth, and all you have built will be purged from this universe.

I am not a Muslim by faith. I am a Christian with a sense of dignity, and righteousness. I cannot ignore the power of Satan anymore in my land. I am not afraid of you, your friends in power, or any of your terrible threats against me. I will see your utter destruction from this earth.

This is why I wrote this post, because it needs to be said, you have frightened the entire nation with your violence! It isn't the Liberty you are fighting for, or Freedom, or Independence, it is Satan. Down with Satan, down with you, and down with every power that has served him. Let America be inherited by righteous Americans.

Where are my good hearted men? Have they all fled away for fear of the terrible monster that has risen out of Washington DC? Did you think we all worshipped the dragon and his terrible power? Down with the dragon, down with them in Washington DC, and may their friends in corporations be hewn down to the ground.

You people don't represent Liberty, you enslave it, you don't promote independence, you promote ignorant consumption. You aren't real Americans, you are the pathetic slaves of Satans global tyranny. How vile you have become, how you stink in the nose of the entire world. To murder and destroy is the faith of the church of Satan, and you are baptized in the blood of innocents. May your own gore be fed to you until your soul is destroyed.

Friends, do not hold back any longer. It is your duty as righteous citizens to put down this filthy, evil war and remove these men from power. Do not overlook this slaughter anymore. Know where it comes from, and who has done this. This is not what America is. This is not the will of the people. This is the will of the devil, and those who have submitted to his power.

Stop holding back. If you remain friends with these vile creatures, you will share their curses, and their fate. And I swear by Him that lives Forever and Ever, you will bear them all.

Stop playing nice with these foul demons. They are subhuman, satanic, and completely corrupted. Are you their friend? Then you are my enemy. Do you speak nicely to them? Then I will speak as though the terror of the Almighty had come to you. I will not spare any of these who ally themselves with the satanic forces of this time.

You who know that I am speaking the truth, do not hold back your words anymore, or I will call you a treacherous person. You know what is evil, and you know that this nation has done the greatest of evils in this world. Take up your honor and attack it with your words until you have restored proper justice in the land. Do this or I will totally disown you as a people.

I am a Christian. Are you?

Arkaleus


[Edited on 14-9-2004 by Arkaleus]



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by Arkaleus
justify their blind support for an act of INVASION and MURDER against a people who were not threatening or even trying to threaten America?


LIBERATION not invasion.
Liberation from the rape rooms,
mass murders, genocide (Kurds),
mutilations and tortures of hundreds
of thousands of innocent Iraqis by
Saddams regime. That's not invasion.

You said AGAINST the people. No.
FOR the people, not against the people.
Which most Iraqis wanted by the way.

AGAINST Saddams regime which was supplying
billions of $$ to terrorists including Hamas which
has murdered Americans in Israel. Against
Saddams regime that was illegally stealing
billions of $$ (with Koffi Annans son's help) from
the Oil for Food program, leaving his people hungry
while he built up his own lavish lifestyle and used
the stolen funds to supply terrorist entities.



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by CazMedia
KJ, its odd we would butt heads but,


I know, and lecturing was not the goal of my last post (by the way, forgot you were in the media, and I'm positive we agree wholeheartedly about the gaps in "service" to the people). I'll edit your lengthy post so this doesn't get too long.


Ive seen plenty of the bits of bodies, watched the still spurting blood spray from an injured person running by the camera, and heard the screams and terror of the scene that YOU'll never hear or see.
So from MY perspective...I understand FULLY the ramifications of what is transpiring.


I have seen it, and have no desire to again, but I understand your point and wasn't contesting that, nor did I call the media evil.


This is not about "breaking some eggs" to accomplish some goal..its about making as SURE as we can that those pictures dont start getting taped HERE, in YOUR neighborhood.


Is it? I question the prime motivation for this war while understanding the basic need for extreme change in Iraq. The question is not in the human justification, only the governmental reasons and the practical execution of it thus far. I personally have found it lacking for many reasons, and from a previous infantryman in the Marines I wish my friends weren't there in the capacity they are currently.



There is NOTHING wrong with AMERICANS feeling for AMERICANS first!!!
If you dont, then exactly who are you placing before your fellow citizens and what does that say about loyalty, and support of ones HOME first?
Who will you sell us out to for a buck? (HINT HINT FRENCH GOV/FOOD FOR OIL)


I place no one in front of Americans, but on the other hand, I do not wish death for a percieved and basically untrue "threat" which would never materialize. The toppling of Iraq could have come from many sources, to include the Arab world (using correct influence and channels which I doubt anyone here would agree we don't have).


Iraq was the second domino in the chain to fall behind afganistan...while PHYSICALLY Iraq was seemingly more of a threat before the war than weve discovered, they were NEVER a tangible threat to the USA....they were an IDEOLOGICAL THREAT.


OK, so you've stated my point entirely. When speaking to an "ideological threat" and in many cases resulting in "insurgents", the best option is not in occupation. Occupation has been, and always will be, a last resort.


Letting this idea that this kind of behaivior will not have any reprocussions only FUELS people like saddam or hitler...hitler took 3 countries before the world war 2 "officially" started...europe tried appeasment and hitler just laughed and got ready to take more.


I think the comparison is a bit extreme, but I'll take it none-the-less. We spent a pretty penny for our 12 years of "containment", not to mention it damaged the people of Iraq far more than Saddam (being the inherent nature of dictators). It stands to reason, considering we are one of the biggest supporters of "insurgents" worldwide. We have trained and supported them for decades (if not longer) yet we sought swift action. The mistake was there.


The idea that America is too scared, to weak willed, and too unwilling to take casualties and dish them out is an idea that has been rattling around the world since NAM....this enabled Osama to use indotronated, poor, uneducated masses to become suicide bombers and attack an enemy that they have been taught from early ages to hate. This idea has been festering for decades and the time has come to show some resolve and stand up against lawlessness, tyrany, and ideals that anr basically not civilized.


You are right, Osama is a bad guy, to US. Osama is not a bad guy per se, especially when we funded and trained them for this very use. Our own dog has come back to bit us on the hand and we don't take kindly to that. Where is the confussion there? Should we take a stand against terror when we created and fostered it? Of course, but we should not be surprised.



1 fanatical religion has tought them that we are evil...we dont even deserve to be converted to Islam...they just want jihad against us. Kill the infidels and take revenge for the crusades.


Perhaps, but the basis did not materialize from nothing, and the fact that people think these people fight for nothing is rediculous. They are NOT cowards, they are NOT crazy, and they are NOT killing for sport. It takes extreme resolve to kill yourself for something you believe in. Honestly I'd say most over here wouldn't come close to doing the same.

There MUST be a more concrete reason for their action. If what you say is true, then we are dealing with the mob mentality, one you could use when speaking of a group of Klansmen hanging a black man, but not in a lone suicide bomber and the like.


2 their poor and were not...basic greed.


This is disagree with fundamentally, and it seems rediculous to me. If this was true, the "sleepers" in this country already would put away their C-4 and enjoy the American dream of Wal-Mart and Food Lions. Also, if this is true, then why not hit Japan, Europe, Saudi Arabia, and the tons of other rich coutries. There is a specific agenda here, one we can not afford to mistake for oversimplified reasons.



Im sure weve done things that they strongly disaproved of, but this is an excuse for suicide attacks against civilians instead of government or millitary targets? When is the last time ive seen Americans take a school full of foriegn hostages and then shoot naked fleeing children in the back? This just the most recent example of total barbarism that generations of radical fundamentalist muslims have been programed for.


I think saying "Im sure weve done things that they strongly disaproved of" is a bit of an understatement considering our action abroad over the past 30 years or so. The support of terror, the support of Israel regardless of what they do, dominence of the US dollar, being infused in the war and death in the middle east not limited to the Iran/Iraq war.

I also think they "disapprove" of George the First leaving the resistance fighters high and dry after the first Gulf War, killing 30,000+ people and driving hundreds of thousands more off is a bit of a start.


You say that the cost of engaging this plauge is too high (war) and we should not do anything to combat this agressivly, to break their spirits to use uncivilized tactics to disrupt the worlds stablity and basically hold us all hostage? We should not make it clear to other rouge states like syria, iran, n korea that indeed there is a concequence for continued defiance of the civilized world and speciffically actions against the USA?
Whimpy whimpy whimpy
.


Quote me where I said nothing should be done. Find where I claim to want America to curl up and wimper away. It's plainly untrue.

But you have confussed my unwillingness to expend life poorly with lack of strength. There is no fool like a big fool, and much like Nam, we are waging it poorly (although we were on the wrong side in Nam unlike in Iraq).

A person can be against the war because the execution is terrible, the timing is well past due, and the world (regardless of international politics) is fighting us.

We created the terrorist, and we are writing their slogans for them with each bomb, raid, and mishap. Will they happen? Yes, but there are ways to do things, and ways not to.


Id rather be drenched in my enemys blood than that of my family...
better get busy living or get busy dying
ignoring this problem will not make it go away, even if it would, what price would we pay for this appeasment? i think that is too high a price to NOT take action..


Even when that action is foolhardy? Even when it has the very real chance of coming back ten fold? I'll not support the sheding of blood of innocents in an attempt to control the uncontrolable.



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 02:21 PM
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Well..what are supposed to do?

Wait...Try to feel the pain to those that have inflicted pain on us? Realize our capitalist evil, and look to our fellow world neighboras with compassion and open wallets?

Well...in a multricultural world of over 5 billion...It's awfull tough, and downright dangerous. Do you think someone willing to kill for their beliefs is willing to spare life IN SPITE of their beliefs?


[edit on 9/14/2004 by soulforge]



posted on Sep, 15 2004 @ 03:45 AM
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Arkaleus,
In a seperate thread, i actually defended you on a small point,
Boy will that one haunt me for the rest of time here on ATS.


Your last post sounded like it was from the pulpit.
Here's a word of advice from one christian to another.
Judge not lest ye be judged......he without sin cast the first stone.
It would appear that you judge in the same manner as others that you curse.

By the way, for someone like me that went to religious christian school for 9 years, you sound like the fundamentalist, evangelical, fire and brimstone
WACKO"S that give christians a bad name. Even christians fear christians like you.

As such a bible thumping christian, you take an egyptial IDOL as your avatar? Talk about living as you preach.

Isnt CURSING anyone taking the lords name in vain? Or would this act be considered invoking a dark power upon someone, as the lord is FORGIVING and only he can curse anyone...shouldnt you be trying to expouse peace and tolorance for the wars victims, and attempting to show thru kindness and love christ's true message, instead of attempting to spew firery wrath and damnation?

And what do you know of satan or satanism? have you read the satanic bible so that you KNOW what your enemy says and thus how to combat him? or are you just taking someone elses word that they are evil and in what fashion?
deny ignorance and do a little research on your own....
dont worry, if your faith was as strong as you claim, you can actually touch and read this evil book without being corrupted by it.

As far as my signature that says "devils advocate"
This has NOTHING to do with the devil, and is a literary term which means that i will argue both sides of a debate, just for the sake of arguing.


Now im sure ill get crusified for doing this (from members that think your a total crazy), but im going to try and HELP you with some things youve said.
asd show how SIMILAR they are to what im saying...

You say zealously,


You and your corporate gods, your gods of money and prostitution, your filthy idols of consumption and greed, these are your gravestones. Your justice will not come from foreigners, it will come from ourselves, those in America who cannot bear your evil any longer. One day you will be removed from this earth, and all you have built will be purged from this universe.
Allow me to paraphrase and agree with you to a point.
YES, corporate motives are certaintly questionable at best....certantly greed, and vices can and do drag us downward somewhat...and consumption for consumptions sake is indeed gluttony....Id even hazard to say that the USA will not fall from external forces, but from corruption and/or lack of cohesion in this culture.
BUT
a blanket lumping of every citizen into this is just wrong...its not logical...
by taking your devicive approach and cloaking it in religious dogema, you seperate yourself more from those people that you might be able to reach and help understand. Definatly calling them names and condeming them will not help you spread the gospel or provide anything for someone to see the light.

Now heres a few examples of things you say that sound remarkably like things others you oppose say.
you,


It is your duty as righteous citizens to put down this filthy, evil war and remove these men from power. Do not overlook this slaughter anymore. Know where it comes from, and who has done this.
Now ill say, (and have)...this war was pushed upon us...the time for inaction is over...it ISour duty as civilized decent people to oppose the tyrants and not continue to overlook the bad things going on and take action to remove these men from power, wherever they hide and we can find them.
The big diference is of course, im talking about the world of terrorists, and you re talking the USA.....i disagree with your target 100%

you,


Stop playing nice with these foul demons. They are subhuman, satanic, and completely corrupted. Are you their friend? Then you are my enemy.
Me, stop coddling terrorists and rouge nations/leaders....they are using barbaric sub human practices to kill westerners and enslave their own peoples. If you are their friend, then you are my enemy. (with us or against us sound familiar) again, basically the same sentaments, just youve picked the wrong target.

you,


I am ashamed of some of my fellow citizens. To hear the words coming out of your mouth, and to realize the kind of personalities you must have.
Me...yeah i feel the same way about you as you do me. as i would about anyone that isnt willing to actually DO something not only in defense, but to combat these evils before they spread and cause MORE problems than we have now.

Try and understand, Im not advocating war for the sake of killing, Im not saying that war, as a tool isnt imprecise and can cause problems and suffering even as it is used for a long term greater good. Im not wishing ANYONES blood be shed. I would choose NOT to hate or be hated, id say voilence IS the last resort...the only question is, how do you know when that last time is? I think we now know.
BUT,
If push comes to shove, dont expect that im going to keep turning the other cheek. eventually i wont have flesh left on my cheeks ...at some point i will do what is nessisary in order to defend our security, our ideals, and our way of life...with both its good and bad sides...as well as stand up for our true allies, and freedom loving people everywhere.
Better this happens on OUR terms not theirs, Better we choose the time and place by seizing the initiative instead of allowing our enemy to do this to us, better that if blood is being spilled it is our enemies and not ours.
I do this because it seems my enemy will NOT give me any quarter or rest, they will never back away from the path of harn them wish upon us. and they will certantly triumph over us unless we take a stand for ourselves...no one is going to do this for us.

condem ME if you will, but dont just lump everyone into this...trust me, there plenty of anti-war for any reason, whimpy americans, that would rather hide and hope the danger passes around this country too.
and im SURE they wouldnt want you putting them next to me as well...
(ready to be put into my catagory 27jd?....)





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