Urban Survival...

There are many here that live in urban areas and have bug out bags. In the bags we all have things that we feel that, we would need to bug out to a bug out location.
The basic load would be...food, water, protection, and meds.
I know thats not all you need, but a bug out bag... is to get you from point A to B.
At your location that your going to, you should have the rest of the supplies that you've stored. Which could be your home or a seperate location like a hunting cabin or a hide away that you plan on being at...if the SHTF.
If your not going to bug out or are just planning on staying put. You bug out bag might be called a vehicle bag....it helps get you home, if your not there when TSHTF.
I put all that in here to let people know that your bag doesn't have to weigh 50-100 lbs. It might just be a jacket with a few things in your pockets. Depending how far and what obsticals you have to cross to get home.
In an urban area, if your staying put... you'll want to have your supplies safe...some use there house to store them, others use a storage facility.
Use what is best for you...meaning if you have no power during a SHTF do you wanna have to try and gain access to a storage facility with electric gates? You could get to your stuff, but it would be safer if you didn't have to go out and be seen loading stuff into a vehicle to resupply your home.
If your in an area that has a lot of abandoned homes or houses for sale, if it is a true SHTF. Go into the abandoned house or building...if it has running water, you can go to the hot water heaters and without destroying them, drain water out of them. You do this by opening the pressure relief on the top side of the tank, and having a small garden hose connected to the bottom drain...open it...take only what you need and shut it off. Take your hose and when you run low on water again, come back and repeat. Water heaters usually are 40- 120 gallons...depending on the size of the structure they are in.
If food is needed, you can try to hunt, fish, trap or even recon stores, super markets, resturants...any place that has or serves food. I don't recommend raiding stores or being seen in a group...you'll want to blend in and want people to forget you, as soon as they see you. Meaning ...don't go out all tactical, be armed, but go low profile.
A tactical bag will draw attention, use a duffel bag or a kids beat up school back pack. Avoid busy areas, but don't avoid them enough to draw attention to yourself.
If you need medical supplies and have a few places to go to, check them out or try and be stocked up for an extended period of time...do that now, don't wait for the SHTF.
I know a lot of people wanna bug out right away...so they say. WHY? unless your at or close to ground zero...your leaving shelter, water, and protection. Bugging out should be a last resort for many...
If your not close to you BOL then you might be making things worse for you by leaving. If your planning on going to the woods and being rambo or dissappearing...good luck, you and about 3/4 of your surrounding area have the same plan. You ever go camping on Labor Day, Memorial Day, or the 4th of July? Well times that by atleast 10....
There are many ideas, thousands of plans, that people have for any events that might happen...think about things before you go off half cocked and end up worse off than you would of been...had you just stayed put.
Your mind is a great tool, use it, read, practice, plan, prep, and get out there and practice your skills, gain new ones.
I left a lot of things out here, like weapons and ammo, tools to have, fuel ...you all get the point, thats why you read here...for ideas, and input for your thinking...or to help others that might have a question about how to do something.
Lets all try to use our heads for something other than a hat rack this year, and get out there and apply our skills and knowledge to better ourselves and others.

I get the deep down gut impression that all of the things i have been putting off for a while need to get done in the first 3 months of this year. Thats just a gut feeling and uninformed speculation.

Agreed though. this is the time to get the last things finished up, put aside differences and work toward sharing knowledge and Practice Runs.

Notice the last one in caps.

I would have to agree with you there.
The worst thing that happens is you buy things that you need and use anyway, you just get them now instead of at higher prices...so you save $$ in the long run.
If your working on skills...well we all can use time outside and in the fresh air...camping and enjoying nature.

When i was a kid,i called my mother crazy because she always carries in her bag a bottle of water,a couple of biscuits packs and some medicines,like painkillers,sticks for bug infections and bandages.She is from Cyprus and when Turkey attackted her country,she was forced to leave.At the age of 9,she was running away with her family,while planes fly over them,and troopers raided some villages and houses,killing and raping most of the people.Now that i'm 18 i get it.They left their home with nothing,only the clothes they wear at this time,and a bag of some silver goblets that my grandma grabbed believing it was clothes.My mother now,as i said,always carries with her things that will help her survive.Now,i'm doing the same.I carry a bottle of water,some biscuits,my pocket knife,and a small whistle.I don't know,maybe i over react,but i live with the fear that any moment something bad will happen,like an eathquake that'll make buildings collapse,or an attack,so i'll need to find shelter..I don't play video games often,so if any of you is gonna say i'm affected by them,i'm not.My whole life i feel like that,since i was a kid.I don't know if it's a psychological problem,or something like a vision,or an "intuition".I just feel like something bad will happen,and lately i feel it more intense.So i keep in my car a bag with clean clothes,some canned food,some bottles of water,and my mountaineering equipment.I believe that that stuff is the essential for survival in case of an "apocalypse".That's all i wanted to say!Sorry for my english,friends,they are not my native language

Hi saltdog. I'm sorry, but I have to be critical here. I see a lot of advice here but nowhere do I see any legitimate sources sited. I don't see any mention of your credentials or examples of any research you've done that we can review. It all just kind of reads like pulp fiction. I like to believe ATS has a higher standard (despite the amount of unfounded, speculative writings that materialize here). I feel obligated to be critical of poorly conceived content in order to maintain and hopefully raise that standard. When you write a reference style OP, there is no value in it whatsoever if your information is not backed up.

Also, I'm a little surprised that with you being registered on ATS since 2009, your OP contains absolutely nothing that hasn't been hashed out in much greater detail, in numerous threads here already.

Again, I apologize, but I've completely missed the point.

Originally posted by dainoyfb
Hi saltdog. I'm sorry, but I have to be critical here. I see a lot of advice here but nowhere do I see any legitimate sources sited. I don't see any mention of your credentials or examples of any research you've done that we can review. It all just kind of reads like pulp fiction. I like to believe ATS has a higher standard (despite the amount of unfounded, speculative writings that materialize here). I feel obligated to be critical of poorly conceived content in order to maintain and hopefully raise that standard. When you write a reference style OP, there is no value in it whatsoever if your information is not backed up.

Also, I'm a little surprised that with you being registered on ATS since 2009, your OP contains absolutely nothing that hasn't been hashed out in much greater detail, in numerous threads here already.

Again, I apologize, but I've completely missed the point.

Thanks for the reply, reread it...your mind is a terrable thing to waste. Do your own research, Never take what anyone says as gospel... find what works for you for yourself...again reread the post. I gave my opinion, my skills and experiance are what they are. I know what I can and can't do...do you? this is the whole point of a tread, to get people to think...it got you to think, now will you act on it or will you just wanna know my qualifications?
There is OPSEC...so I can tell you this. I am not old, nor am I young. I have traveled the world and still do. I have been in in the jungles of central/south america, the deserts of africa and the middle east, I have hiked in several mountain ranges from the USA/Canada/Europe...I have been in and seen countries that have had a failed economy, been in conflics and wars...I am me, I have nothing to prove to anyone except for myself.
Take whatever ideas that you had when you read this post and apply it to you...for you...to better your thinking, and hopefully open your eyes to things that you might have overlooked or not even thought about.

Again, thanks for your post, but try googling key words, look at other survival sites and forums...be warned, some sites won't be so kind if you want to know what qualifications someone has.
I tell you this because here on ATS we have many different people and backgrounds...
we have tree hugging hippies
prior service
active service
contractors
scientists
engineers
trash collectors
doctors
bankers
stock brokers
house wives..husbands

We get a lot of different views from everyone...take what you can and learn...thats one of the reasons we are all here.

reply to post by dainoyfb


If you are curious about information, there are several people here that are very able to help with any questions you might have...like I said, we have a huge diverse crowd in this site. I know I don't know it all, I get ideas from reading, research and trial and error...I also know what works for me...many of the things I have done several times...There are things that will help you in a serious SHTF..usually in plain site..that many people overlook or don't even think about.
I don't want to see anyone fail, that is willing and tring to learn or accomplish something.

Originally posted by dainoyfb
Hi saltdog. I'm sorry, but I have to be critical here. I see a lot of advice here but nowhere do I see any legitimate sources sited. I don't see any mention of your credentials or examples of any research you've done that we can review.

Is that the best you can do? "sources, please"; "provide evidence please", and "pix or it didn't happen??? And credentials? Really? Like if he filmed a fake survivor show where he lectured you about survival and then went home to eat supper with the film crew?

Honestly, there are no "legitimate sources" for survival. Even the government studies on EMP are an exercise in speculative fiction. You mention research, as if FEMA had learned something from its non-response to Katrina, or its non-response to the LA riots, or its non-response to the San Francisco earthquake.

I do have professional experience in emergency management; but I'm not about to post it here for your 'critical review.' Measure every post based on the strength of its ideas, rather than on what credential someone waves around. And Saltdog is a lot closer to the real issues than 90% of the posts in the survival forum.

If you wanted to give a valid critique of his OP, you could have said that he doesn't explicate his ideas well---almost like he has a concept but isn't willing to write three introductory sentences to get his point across.

So let me see if I can get his basic ideas across:

1. With 85% of the US population living in urban settings, and similar numbers for Europe and English speaking countries generally, there should be more focus at ATS on urban survival.

2. Some threats will be so widespread that fleeing your particular city doesn't really lessen the threat to your life, it simply removes you from your resources. For example, an epidemic that is nation wide. Fleeing to a remote location will expose you to far more carriers along the way, than simply holing up for 2 weeks in a suburban enclave---especially if the neighbors bug out.

3. If you live in a suburb, chances are that you will need to travel 50 miles or more to reach any rural retreat. And the thought of covering 50 miles of cityscape during riot and mayhem and societal collapse sounds far more dangerous than merely staying put, while your neighbors flee...you.

4. If you can manage to feed yourself for the first 2 weeks, the 90% of the population that made no preparations will have already spent itself and largely dissipated. While it is speculation, we can plausibly imagine a population collapse that begins immediately, as diabetics miss their dosages, kidney patients cannot get dialysis, and prisoners are left to starve in their jail cells. Hour by hour, nurses and firefighters deserting their posts mean that minor medical emergencies are now transformed into a virtual death sentence. Fights at the corner grocery spread to riots at the corner drugstore, then to restaurants and schools---anywhere that food was stored. Once the electricity goes down, the water supply runs out in 3 or 4 days, and the real suffering begins. If you still have your own food and water stores, you have the energy to prepare food and stay clean. But the others begin to lose energy as their intake falls below 1000kcal per day, and dehydration causes lassitude and ennui.


15 days into this scenario, a well-rested, well-fed person, suitably armed and equipped, would emerge like a time-traveler to take control of the local situation. One can actually imagine less risk in emerging from your lair into a deserted city, than traveling to a national forest and facing a rootless army of drunken but well-armed "survivalists" itching for open battle.

Saltdog's concepts are definitely there, even if he didn't spell them out. Speculation is a tool for the survivalist, as a thought-experiment. On the other hand, if he's writing a research paper for a sophomore English class, you are right and he had better cite (sic) some sources. But for speculation... no, credentials and sources matter less than compelling ideas and thought-out analysis.

Now, pardon me while I go alphabetize my bibliography page.

Originally posted by tovenar

Originally posted by dainoyfb
Hi saltdog. I'm sorry, but I have to be critical here. I see a lot of advice here but nowhere do I see any legitimate sources sited. I don't see any mention of your credentials or examples of any research you've done that we can review.

Is that the best you can do? "sources, please"; "provide evidence please", and "pix or it didn't happen??? And credentials? Really? Like if he filmed a fake survivor show where he lectured you about survival and then went home to eat supper with the film crew?

Honestly, there are no "legitimate sources" for survival. Even the government studies on EMP are an exercise in speculative fiction. You mention research, as if FEMA had learned something from its non-response to Katrina, or its non-response to the LA riots, or its non-response to the San Francisco earthquake.

I do have professional experience in emergency management; but I'm not about to post it here for your 'critical review.' Measure every post based on the strength of its ideas, rather than on what credential someone waves around. And Saltdog is a lot closer to the real issues than 90% of the posts in the survival forum.

If you wanted to give a valid critique of his OP, you could have said that he doesn't explicate his ideas well---almost like he has a concept but isn't willing to write three introductory sentences to get his point across.

So let me see if I can get his basic ideas across:

1. With 85% of the US population living in urban settings, and similar numbers for Europe and English speaking countries generally, there should be more focus at ATS on urban survival.

2. Some threats will be so widespread that fleeing your particular city doesn't really lessen the threat to your life, it simply removes you from your resources. For example, an epidemic that is nation wide. Fleeing to a remote location will expose you to far more carriers along the way, than simply holing up for 2 weeks in a suburban enclave---especially if the neighbors bug out.

3. If you live in a suburb, chances are that you will need to travel 50 miles or more to reach any rural retreat. And the thought of covering 50 miles of cityscape during riot and mayhem and societal collapse sounds far more dangerous than merely staying put, while your neighbors flee...you.

4. If you can manage to feed yourself for the first 2 weeks, the 90% of the population that made no preparations will have already spent itself and largely dissipated. While it is speculation, we can plausibly imagine a population collapse that begins immediately, as diabetics miss their dosages, kidney patients cannot get dialysis, and prisoners are left to starve in their jail cells. Hour by hour, nurses and firefighters deserting their posts mean that minor medical emergencies are now transformed into a virtual death sentence. Fights at the corner grocery spread to riots at the corner drugstore, then to restaurants and schools---anywhere that food was stored. Once the electricity goes down, the water supply runs out in 3 or 4 days, and the real suffering begins. If you still have your own food and water stores, you have the energy to prepare food and stay clean. But the others begin to lose energy as their intake falls below 1000kcal per day, and dehydration causes lassitude and ennui.


15 days into this scenario, a well-rested, well-fed person, suitably armed and equipped, would emerge like a time-traveler to take control of the local situation. One can actually imagine less risk in emerging from your lair into a deserted city, than traveling to a national forest and facing a rootless army of drunken but well-armed "survivalists" itching for open battle.

Saltdog's concepts are definitely there, even if he didn't spell them out. Speculation is a tool for the survivalist, as a thought-experiment. On the other hand, if he's writing a research paper for a sophomore English class, you are right and he had better cite (sic) some sources. But for speculation... no, credentials and sources matter less than compelling ideas and thought-out analysis.

Now, pardon me while I go alphabetize my bibliography page.

edit on 20-1-2012 by tovenar because: I rock

LOL.. thanks for the compliment.
Its good to see another person here, that understands how it is...I just hope that everyone gets something out of these posts and treads...to better themself.
Give a man a fish, he is fed for the day...teach him to fish, he can feed himself for a lifetime.
I wish others would really start to think, and act on what they need to do for themselves..

I think the times when "bugging out" are called for will be relatively few:

1. Nuclear reactor or industrial accident
2. Earthquake that immobilizes institutions in your area (emergency rescue, hospital, food supply)
3. Act of war
4. Severe weather


In cases like economic collapse, fleeing to the countryside doesn't really better you situation in a meaningful way. If you look at the Great Depression in the US, crime actually went down, as it has in the USA during the downturn since 2008,

Likewise, in the "dirty 30's," rural farmers were the very ones who were forced to "bug out" from the central plains to the truck-farms of California--and this was due to a change in climate. At any rate, very few people actually starved, even among the rural black population, which were the hardest hit of all.

While a bug-out bag in one's vehicle, workspace, and home is a key feature of preparedness, it is only one strategy, and one that only applies to a particular set of circumstances. For the vast majority of readers, who live in urban/suburban environs, plans must be made for when leaving is not an option, for whatever reason.

I would have to agree with you. The only way I would want or have to bug out...is if I had to. Like I was at ground zero for whatever the event.
If economy crapps out...well, I would take things day by day for the area I am in.
The worst thing a person can do, is leave an area where you have what you need there already.
Going to the woods is probably my last choice...and will be the toughest by far.

reply to post by dainoyfb


I have no problem with what was posted. Sure, could have used some paragraphs here and there But other than that...

Would you like to see my credentials?

Great post.
I love the idea of taking water from the hot water systems. Such a great idea, commonsense, but I didn;t think of it!

Has anyone got other ideas for food? Other than raiding supermarkets (could be dangerous).

What are some good ways to fortify a home?

Also, what about weaponry? Other than guns.

Originally posted by kingoddball
Great post.
I love the idea of taking water from the hot water systems. Such a great idea, commonsense, but I didn;t think of it!

Has anyone got other ideas for food? Other than raiding supermarkets (could be dangerous).

What are some good ways to fortify a home?

Also, what about weaponry? Other than guns.

Food wharehouses are full of goods, for a real SHTF, that would be a possible thought...depending on distance and the mood of the surrounding people...if they are rioting...stay away from them.
If your neighbor bugs out, they might be leaving a bunch of things at the house...ask them as they are leaving, if they want you to keep an eye out on things...that can help you a lot too.
Depending on where you live, you might have food right outside your door...a park, yard, or anyplace with squirrels or rabbits for starters. fishing from the river, creek, pond or lake..thats within walking distance. Know what plants you can and cannot eat in your area.

Fortify the house by not looking like a good target. Don't have food or weapons in view of a window. Don't have the taxidermy animals on the wall or in sight of a window...or go the other extreme...have lots of guns and taxidermy work on display, look like hillbilly hell and have tactical things throughout the house in plain sight....they will by pass you for 1 of 2 reasons with either of these.
1) you have nothing in view of value, so they don't wanna bother looking...thats to much work..they want quick and easy.
2) They see all the guns and animals..then say, I ain't going to try that place, they have guns, and are military or prior military, so they know what they are doing...way to hard and way to much risk to even try.

Weapons work, but you have to know how to use them.
A bow and arrows are good, sling shot, spear, depending on where you live...sometimes the things you need are right outside the front door.

In an urban scenario if you haven't resolved the issue of organized security for your sector beforehand, others who already have will sweep through you like you weren't even there. Survival of the fittest is the name of the game, and if a group comes to realize that you are prepared but alone, they will wait you out to gather your goodies, because they don't have to sleep, where as you will eventually.

So on that note, you need to form a tribe or brotherhood of warriors, that know what they must do to defend against other bands.

if anything ever really happened in this country, Everyone will become an enemy, even your closest allies. if you've ever seen the movies mad maxx or gangs of newyork, or escape from LA, these are serious issues and probabilities that could possibly come to pass, depending on the social severity or Cataclysm.

putting together a BOB with some weapons, meds ,food, water purification,ETC is i miniscule part of the rest of a bigger problem you have to adapt and overcome.

Sitting ducks get blown out of the water, whereas its harder to kill an entire moving flock of geese or stampeding herd of buffalo

Originally posted by sweetnlow

So on that note, you need to form a tribe or brotherhood of warriors, that know what they must do to defend against other bands.

I agree completely. Tribes, as you put it, will coalesce around all kind of groups. In urbanity, most people's primary relationships are nuclear family and work. But the nuclear family is only a handful of people, and many folks don't really like the people they work with.

I predict that volunteer associations will become the incubator for the sort of tribes that will take root. Volunteer fire departments, shooting clubs, Sunday school classes, even Thursday night poker tables can be the nexus---anywhere that folks have spent enough time together to build a level of trust.

I see a lot of people talking security in here. Are you going to have a group? What if they cannot get to you?
Or you to them?
Do you all have a back up? do you have a back up for that? Just checking.

You cannot be awake 24/7 and need to sleep sometime, but if your not openly visable, you can be ok alone...but its not ideal.

There are pro's and con's to both. Examples are.
Pro's of a group...
More security
safety in #'s
help to get things done
more assets to survive with
more knowledge of how to

Con's are
Easier to get spotted
more mouths to feed
inner conflict
people not pulling there weight
need a larger space to be in

This is by no means everything, but gives you food for thought on a group.
Alone depending on the situation could be worse or it could be better.
If your weak with ability or skills you need a group, if your not weak there...you have a better chance than most...again depending on the situation.

reply to post by tovenar

LOL what a great post and I couldn't agree more. I'm new to this web site because Its the right time. But just to set the nay sayers at ease I'll list my creds! LOL. Degree in Search and Rescue' Degree in Human Resources; Degree in Security Management and currently in a Masters in International security. Ive graduated Arctic Survival, Jungle Survival, Basic Survival, Airborne, Divemaster and a host of others including DA and ASO courses. Ive taught over 10k military and dont know how many Government and civilian employees Urban and Isolated survival.
The original post was solid and although I dont agree with everyword there is knowledge and wisdom there. NOBODY knows how it will go down and everybody will have to adapt to survive and adapt quickly.
My recommendations are to get real training, not primitive (there is an ex Airforce instructor thats good in Virginia who has a school; no humming to gia there) If I remember the name I'll post it. Also Use the PACE acronym (Primary, Alternate,Contingency and Emergency) to base any op you have on and you will have a better chance at making it.
Remember...Advanced tactics and skills are just basic techniques practiced to perfection!
Keep the Faith your the Constitutions last hope. Bickering gets us no where.

reply to post by saltdog


Speculation is one of the keys to being prepared. An Urban environment is a complex system developed around a manmade infrastructure which runs on electricity. So there is your core problem. I was in Coronado on business when the lights went out is Southern California a few months back. I just so happened to be driving into San Diego when it happened so I got a great lesson in total power outage in a major city. I do a lot of traveling in my chosen occupation and when it is in the CONUS and is going to last more than a few weeks I take my truck so I was well equipted. Along with me was one of my partners in crime and we began talking about what would happen if the power outages lasted 24, 72 or more hours.
At the time most people were standing around trying to figure out what to do, some were still trying to get into "blackedout" bars and one place was actually smart enough to keep the booze flowing under candle light. The cell phone towers where instantly overwhelmed and the police were deployed everywhere. Overall it was quite peacefull.
But for how long would it stay peacefull if the lights stayed out? Here is what we speculated, coming from a couple of old guys with 50 years experience between them. Refrigerated food spoiled in the first two days, Sewer process and pump systems backed up in 24 hours, Water purification and pump systems disabled and not functioning instantly with gravity feed water supplies dried up in under 6 hours. No gas Instantly (electrical pump systems) so those without a full tank are screwed. Phones down and the first of many fires would break out because someone tried to brighten their home with a lot of candles, since there was no water pressure the firemen just watched it burn when their tanker truck ran out of water (thats assuming they even knew about it). Since the SanDiego area has a major shortage of Police (about 1400 inclusive with only about a third of those being line officers) looting would start within 24 hours and homeowners would be defending their own with what they have and based on how seriously they followed the draconian gun laws.
Anyway, you can take it from there, depending on your mood...martial law, all out riots (like LA), FEMA ineptness (Katrina and the Mayor) New age spiritual revival...whatever. The point being is that in a city there are things which must come to past in a SHTF scenerio and you must be ready for them.
There are numerous ways to deal with a Urban situation including getting to high ground and bunkering in. But the bottom line if the situation lasts to long you may be in a world of hurt for food, medical and clean water. But if you do get stuck in a Urban Scenerio remember three things. Clorox, Updated Shots and Pigeons.

It is anyones guess as to what might start off a SHTF, there are a lot of people thinking the economy, some say mother nature, others say man made..like a EMP or a several city 911 kinda thing.
It really doesn't matter what it is, just know that once something happens...it will snow ball.
Yes the electrical grid is a possible nightmare, if your practicing your skills you should be doing them outside and without ANY modern convienances...take food, fuel, waste, water, vehicles, everything out of this...take a pack, and go into the woods and see how you do for 3 days.
Take 1 meal for a days food with you, a liter of water....now, that gets you there..now get started.
I say to do this, because if you don't have the tools, knowledge, skills, or ability to get what you need..well you found some weak points in your plan.

this reply is kinda all over the place, but in a survival situation, your going to be figuring things out and probably freeking out... get the following and you should be fine.
Food
Water
Shelter/Protection
....provided the elements or other people don't get you. That is all you need to survive.
A 20 year old kid said something to me today, they saw the doomsday prepper show and said...oh well, I can't do anything about it...so I'll just take everyone elses stuff, cuz I can't buy it now, if not ..well I will die...oh well.

The sad thing about this is that...it will be these kids that don't wanna help themselves or take the time to learn life without a cell or internet..so they(not all but many) have no damn clue as to how to set up a camp with a tent...let alone security, or what to do, how to do it or even why.
These kids are also the ones that would be raising hell in the streets, by robbing and looting...these kids now adays...they are something else...