If God is love then why do animals kill each other?

reply to post by 1nOne


Yes, but why subject us to a system of killing (pain) at all?

reply to post by arpgme


It is quite simple: since man is mortal and has to die,something needs to eat us so we don't contaminate nature,...and from that point logic says all.

reply to post by arpgme

I would define the killing and pain we experience here as an illusion from which we get to learn from, and once we are released from the illusion we realize nobody was actually hurt just like nobody is actually hurt in a game of Call of Duty. Billions of "people" are slaughtered in video games each year that we do not fret for, but do learn from their "death experience".

This is the great teachings people have been trying to pass down for millennia.

Your liver "kills" and eats many cells. If no cells died and others were born, you wouldn't heal or grow.

Pain is a very subjective sensation. When we have been immersed in a culture which teaches us to fear and do everything possible to avoid death even if it makes ourself and everyone around us miserable... it is understandable that it becomes difficult to see the love in the birth/death/birth/death/birth cycle.

Death is never final, because eternal Tao/Infinity/The Universe/God consciousness is first.

If we are to use the term God... God can not kill itself. Only pretend to. If there are things outside of God which *do* kill themselves, their "outsideness" can only be an illusion.

So long as a person is contained within the perspective that "here, and this life is all there is"... the full perspective will continue to elude them. Just like a person who focuses only on their town will have the perspective of a nation or world elude them. Neither is wrong... we learn different things when observing from high above (like a map) versus walking the terrain in a very focused manner (down in the trees).

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

Apart from the Infinite creator, physical life is certainly an impossibility but that doesn't mean our souls are bound by the laws of a physically binding universe. And again, while with the infinite, He would be our infinite source of life.

Who or what are you calling the Infinite creator?
Do you mean the creator of the infinite?
Is the universe infinite and it was created to be that way?
Or are you thinking of a person who is somehow infinite?
To me, the infinite would not be a creation such as the universe, nor would it be a person.
The infinite would be the unknowable void that exists outside of and independent of, the universe and no person can exist in the void so there is no infinite person, but we can personify a hypothetical person in our imagination, people of the void who caused the universe to come into existence but the reality is that the void contained principles that are beyond even thought and those were incorporated into the universe and became integral with, and indistinguishable from, the universe. Persons exist in the universe who are the product of its creation and it is up to these persons to survive within it the best they can, meaning the primordial persons who to us are eternal while we are more a different sort of person which is not eternal. We do rely on those seemingly eternal beings to lend their assistance, to us, to have a form of immortality, which then is dependent on those higher beings.

I don't disagree with your assessment. I believe God is Spirit and to be worshiped in Spirit and in Truth. He, our Infinite Father, holds a finite material universe bound by principals he has set in the palm of his hand. Our mortal bodies are not and will never be infinite because unlike our souls, the flesh is material and never meant to be eternal. If we want eternal life then it is necessary we receive it by grace through faith from our Infinite Creator.

reply to post by apushforenlightment


I'm not afraid of death. Why anybody would be afraid of death is beyong me. You are right by saying I never experienced the devine. To me, this is irrelevant for now. You talk about chi, life energy in other words. I do believe in chi. But some use different terminology. As you well know energy is indestructible. It can only be transformed or redestributed. That's physics. There for I believe that when I die the energy which keeps my body going will only be redistributed evenly through out the univers. 21 grams of that energy to be exact. Why 21 grams? I have no clue. But maybe you have some thoughts on that. If you do, I would very much like to read them.

I, as a person, do not need the promiss of salvation to know the value of a good deed. I've read the bible a couple of time, and it's one of the best stories I've ever read. But that's all it is to me, a story. But it does have some good points on how to live ones life. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". That's pretty much how I chose to live my life. I've heard a saying a while back. I found it very interesting. It says. " Nothing is true, everything is permited". The "Nothing is true" part I think it means that the truth changes with every person depending on their perseption and/or their perspective. To me that's just common knowledge. But the "Everything is permited" part is what made me think. I think it means; Do what you will. But you must be prepared to deal with the consequences of your actions. Again, Do unto others... And that is what is fundamentally wrong with the human race. can you see the paradox? We are a very selfish race. Even the good deeds we do, deep down, are for our own selfish reasons. Weither it be for others perseption of you, for salvation, or like myself, because it makes me feel good to give a helping hand, selfishness is what drives the world. Always have, alway will be. That is why the ideal society will never be. No matter how hard we try to use our egos for performing good deeds and to help our fellow man, there are others who will use their egos to harm, to put down and to feed on the weak. You can never have darkness with out light.

hm, heres my theory:

when people were given free will, the animals and plants chose not to accept free will. that is why they survive by instinct, it's like God's plan and will is instilled in them.

catholicism.org...

I'm getting tired of seeing people of almost every religious background talk about animals as "lower" or otherwise fundamentally different than humans. Where does homo erectus and neanderthal fit into that model? How about aliens? Isn't it obvious that any religion making these claims is nonsense?

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

He, our Infinite Father, holds a finite material universe bound by principals he has set in the palm of his hand.

You might disagree if you understood what I am saying exactly, but of course I am talking about undefinable things and so it is by necessity vague.
What I am saying is that "our Infinite Father", according to the description you just gave, to me, is not an actual person and is a way of personifying something which can not be accurately described, us being finite beings and not capable of looking into the void of nothingness.
A god, to me, would be someone such as Jesus, who was a god formerly, before his incarnation as the baby Jesus. He was an actual living person as a spiritual being but someone who lived within the universe and knew of what was evident to such spiritual beings such as himself, the principles of what existed before the existence of the universe and what caused it to come into being and why it did in the way that it did. What was the limitations imposed on the universe itself and how people of the nature that the proto-Jesus was, were there in order to make up for those shortcomings. Is Love just the realization of someone like Jesus that they exist for the purpose of helping people like us, then that intent is attributed to that ever-present something that is the residual reminder of where everything originated from?

reply to post by Hydroman

If Adam and Eve were created immortal, what was the purpose of the Tree of Life in the garden? It wouldn't have done anything for them. Why was it there?

You had this male sky god who subdued the female earth goddess, then he went about pretending he was the only god.
She did not like that sort of attitude from this god and grew one of her trees right in the middle of his garden.
The male god wanted to keep it a secret that the goddess could sustain their lives outside his garden.
Once they realized that fact, he said, well, yes, but it is nowhere near as nice as my garden.

Oops, I realize this does not answer the question. You were talking about the "good tree".
This symbolizes the difference between the natural, and the supernatural, terms I am adopting for lack of better ones I can think of at the moment. We come from the earth and the natural, represented by our mother goddess, but the spiritual is represented by the father sky god and is the source for a life beyond the ordinary life we are born with and therein lies the hope for the eternal.

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
hm, heres my theory:

when people were given free will, the animals and plants chose not to accept free will. that is why they survive by instinct, it's like God's plan and will is instilled in them.

catholicism.org...

I see you linked to a catholicism website.

So we chose free will even though we could risk the chance of going to hell for all eternity, while the animals gets a free rid without the test of faith?

reply to post by jmdewey60


God is not person in flesh as are we. Biblically He is Spirit, John 4:24, and I'd rather lean on Jesus than my own understanding. Jesus was with the Father in the beginning, Gen 1:26 & John 1:3, and I believe Jesus now resides at Gods right hand, again as he did at first, in the flesh because Jesus knew no sin.

God relates to Job how He is author of all that exists: laws, universe, everything (Job 38) I'm not sure if you're saying God has made up for our shortcomings or if you accuse Him of having shortcomings. I'd agree with the first, not the last.

And, im not sure if your last statement is a question or what but Love, this is how we know love: 1 John 3:16+.

God has made Himself known and knowable in Love, in His Son, in grace through faith.

Originally posted by XLR8R
reply to post by apushforenlightment

 

I'm not afraid of death. Why anybody would be afraid of death is beyong me. You are right by saying I never experienced the devine. To me, this is irrelevant for now. You talk about chi, life energy in other words. I do believe in chi. But some use different terminology. As you well know energy is indestructible. It can only be transformed or redestributed. That's physics. There for I believe that when I die the energy which keeps my body going will only be redistributed evenly through out the univers. 21 grams of that energy to be exact. Why 21 grams? I have no clue. But maybe you have some thoughts on that. If you do, I would very much like to read them.

I, as a person, do not need the promiss of salvation to know the value of a good deed. I've read the bible a couple of time, and it's one of the best stories I've ever read. But that's all it is to me, a story. But it does have some good points on how to live ones life. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". That's pretty much how I chose to live my life. I've heard a saying a while back. I found it very interesting. It says. " Nothing is true, everything is permited". The "Nothing is true" part I think it means that the truth changes with every person depending on their perseption and/or their perspective. To me that's just common knowledge. But the "Everything is permited" part is what made me think. I think it means; Do what you will. But you must be prepared to deal with the consequences of your actions. Again, Do unto others... And that is what is fundamentally wrong with the human race. can you see the paradox? We are a very selfish race. Even the good deeds we do, deep down, are for our own selfish reasons. Weither it be for others perseption of you, for salvation, or like myself, because it makes me feel good to give a helping hand, selfishness is what drives the world. Always have, alway will be. That is why the ideal society will never be. No matter how hard we try to use our egos for performing good deeds and to help our fellow man, there are others who will use their egos to harm, to put down and to feed on the weak. You can never have darkness with out light.

edit on 19-1-2012 by XLR8R because: (no reason given)

I like to think there is something that is thruth but I cannot be sure since reality is not static www.youtube.com... I think if you add everything up there is something that just is. But what that is or looks like I do not have a clue. It just that I do not know all thruth and I am pretty sure I am wrong about much. That is why I keep questioning myself and god.

Above about being your choice is for me karma and I always liked buddism. In Christianity it's more threat, do this or this will happen. I Buddism it's I choose to do like this because I take responsability off my karma. You are the one taking responsability for your evolution and wanting to connect to the everything/god and it suits me better that people telling me about hell. For me you wrote about the paradox of beliving in Karma. Do the belief cause your actions to be lesser valued? I do not know. I do not know where to draw the line. Am I a part of the problem or the solution. Or am I just evolving.

There is nothing wrong in taking joy from doing good but you can get and ego and pride that you are better than others that is not good. You are probably gonna hate this line but for me the worth of your soul is the same as any other soul however god or bad you are. I even have a hard time with this one myself. The difference is how evolved the soul is for service to all (god) that decides where it is. What you happen if all people in this world that was born was like Dalai Lama? Would not people like that create a more ideal world? Humanity is still evolving. One day we will understand that to get happiness/heaven on earth for some without conflict we have to make sure all are happy.

You can have a place in light where there is very litte darkness. But you have a hard time telling what is lighter that the other when everything is light. Earth is a perfect place to see the differance between light and dark or as i say "service to all" and "service to self"(ego).

Namaste

Chi is for me external energy from somewhere that runs thru your body from above your head and out of your spine and feet and hands. The 7 chakras hindus are describing seem to fit my own experiance. It is a thing you can physicly feel because your senses become more sensitive. The prolonged exposure to it makes you more harmonious. For me it is the other experiance of awakeening from the dream. While the mind revolts against everything that do not fit and becomes feed up and want change and do not care about excuses from self or others, you also get the times where you feel like one with yourself and your enviroment. It is a gentle feeling for me.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

God is not person in flesh as are we.

Who do you mean by "God"? The same thing as the infinite creator, Father character you were describing earlier? Is Jesus, God, or something else? You seem to be making him out as not God, just someone who earned his way to a promotion. That would not be an orthodox way to describe Jesus, since normally Jesus is considered God and part of a Trinity.

Biblically He is Spirit, John 4:24, and I'd rather lean on Jesus than my own understanding.

And what does Jesus say about his Father, Jesus being himself God? A spirit? And what, exactly, would that mean? No one has seen the Father? And what would that mean, and would it include God?

Jesus was with the Father in the beginning, Gen 1:26 & John 1:3, and I believe Jesus now resides at Gods right hand, again as he did at first, in the flesh because Jesus knew no sin.

John 1:3 could also be taken to mean, 'This thing was before God.'

God relates to Job how He is author of all that exists: laws, universe, everything (Job 38) I'm not sure if you're saying God has made up for our shortcomings or if you accuse Him of having shortcomings. I'd agree with the first, not the last.

There are different words used in Job that are translated as, God. It recognizes the existence of local gods who provide things for one area and there seems to be going on in this story one of these lesser gods pretending to be the creator in order to make Job submit to his judgment against him while Job resists and is later vindicated, so using Job to show that a person is claiming to have created the universe is using the words of a liar.

And, im not sure if your last statement is a question or what but Love, this is how we know love: 1 John 3:16+.

God has made Himself known and knowable in Love, in His Son, in grace through faith

It was a question and I was asking where does this love of God for us come from and what exactly is its nature and why would it be directed towards us? I was trying to hint at a possible answer that it is evident to God that there is a purpose that comes from those principles that created the universe and guides those who are the pure spirits.

Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge
1.God only cares about the soul of man and animals. It does not matter to him if you die on earth so much as your soul is not corrupted or lost.

2.Yeah sure.

3.Keep dreaming and when he is standing in-front of you, what are you going to say?

4. There is only one true God Yahweh and Jesus. There are lesser gods and if you read the bible with very accurate Hebrew translation you will find out we are all gods as we are Divine in nature. Just do not worship any other God but Yahweh or Jesus and he may save your soul.

1. I here that a lot. That's why it was ok for him to slaughter and order the slaughter of so many Men, Women, Babies, Animals, And Baby Animals in the bible, right?

2. No, not really 'yeah sure'. It's just an excuse always used to not make sense of it.

3. "Thanks for hiding you're existence, only revealing it in a completely nutty book that contradicts so much. Thanks for creating the world to look like it happened without you. Thanks for making observable science that seemed to contradict so much of what the book said. Thanks for providing no more evidence for yourself than there is for any of the other God's man has come up with. Thanks for refusing to ever answer any prayer offerings to reveal yourself I've personally sent to you so many times. Thanks for making me not dumb. Thanks for making me not gullible. Thanks for giving me the ability to think in a critical manner. I've done the best I can to have a good moral life, but you were to well hid for me to find you. If you're skilled hiding means I deserve to be burnt forever, constant suffering, thanks for that. If it just means I don't get the better heavenly afterlife, thanks for that. I know I deserve punishment for using the brain you gave me.

Thanks again."


4. I very much appreciate you telling me the specific interpretation you choose to believe or the specific book you choose to believe as fact. Everyone else does the same thing as well, so I can't really just jump the wagon of your beliefs just because you claimed they were true. I mean, even if I wanted to. I don't choose what I believe. I see a blue sky, I believe the sky is blue, I can't decide I believe it's read. I don't see an invisible pink unicorn, I don't believe in an invisible pink unicorn. I don't choose what to believe, my mind believes what there's evidence for, and to not believe what there isn't for.

~
This is going into the off topic realm. But you posted something directed at me and my post. Though my post was all about "If God is love then why do animals kill each other?", and you're response only slightly touched it and had more regarding other topics. I'm still responding, even to the off topic bits. I'd rather not lead to any derailing though, because the focus of the topic, is a good question being asked. And because derailing is just plain rude.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Who do you mean by "God"? The same thing as the infinite creator, Father character you were describing earlier? Is Jesus, God, or something else? You seem to be making him out as not God, just someone who earned his way to a promotion. That would not be an orthodox way to describe Jesus, since normally Jesus is considered God and part of a Trinity

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is no man good, but one, that is God.

Galatians 1:3-5 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

I believe as the Word of God has dictated. They are both separate and one. Jesus is the Son of God and was present with God our Father in the beginning along with the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by jmdewey60And what does Jesus say about his Father, Jesus being himself God? A spirit? And what, exactly, would that mean? No one has seen the Father? And what would that mean, and would it include God

Jesus gives reverance always to God and claims He and the Father are one (John 10:30). Even the Holy Spirit fell upon Jesus and stayed upon him (John 1:32) like it had on no other according to scripture. And no man has seen God at any time save the Son who was with Him from the beginning (john 6:46).

(1 John 3) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John 1:3 could also be taken to mean, 'This thing was before God.'

To be before God would be to be God so no, it doesn't mean before but with God.

There are different words used in Job that are translated as, God. It recognizes the existence of local gods who provide things for one area and there seems to be going on in this story one of these lesser gods pretending to be the creator in order to make Job submit to his judgment against him while Job resists and is later vindicated, so using Job to show that a person is claiming to have created the universe is using the words of a liar

What a faulty understanding lol. I'm sure you're just being an antagonist but okay. There are gods and lords in this world. Any man who exercises power over us lords over us but that doesn't make him/them God, not in spirit or in truth. Job puts all those little g gods in their place as they accuse him of something he didnt do. Only the true God shows up when Job turns his heart and voice to heaven. Only the true God is approached by satan, only the true God returns to Job all that he lost and more. And only the true God can do that for us

.

It was a question and I was asking where does this love of God for us come from and what exactly is its nature and why would it be directed towards us? I was trying to hint at a possible answer that it is evident to God that there is a purpose that comes from those principles that created the universe and guides those who are the pure spirits

Principals didn't create the universe. God created the universe according to the principals He established so why wouldn't it be evident to the Creator that His rules for creation are a guide when He knowingly established the law, convincing us of sin, and grace, saving us from sin (Romans 6)?

edit on 19-1-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: (no reason given)