If God is love then why do animals kill each other?

What if our sun gave off another source of energy besides light and heat? What if all living things could harness this energy? Photosynthesis, but with something far more potent. It would also, unlike light and heat, not be at all harmful to any of us. We would never have to eat, our bodies could function off the energy?

On top of that, we could harness it to power our nations without killing the environment.

No more starving children, no more obesity. No more animals killing eat other. Without people stuck in famine, 90% of war would never happen.

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The people who say that animals kill each other because they need to eat, are right. However, that doesn't excuse it from a loving God. An omnipotent creator could have created a system where death doesn't need to be dealt to sustain the living. God didn't make them kill each other so they could eat and survive. He made it so that they had to kill each other or else starve and die.

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Just saying. When you think it was an Omnipotent loving creator who made all this, it's hard to understand why it was made this way instead of many better possible ways it could have been done. That goes beyond the animals killing each other question too.

Originally posted by faceoff85
reply to post by 547000

 

When would this be? When both man and animal have risen to heaven? there quite a dilemma here, think about it...

When God creates a new heavens and earth.

Who said the animals were closely connected to God? Humans share that relationship, not beasts.
Animals kill each other as they are components of the material world: they multiply, they die.
They exist to feed us, to work for us, to entertain us.

Genesis 1 20-28

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx


Thank you, because of you I can clarify my question..


People are saying the obvious answers from science "survival", "balance", but they aren't taking the "God = Love" part into the question...


If God = Love, And God is infinitely intelligent. Why would God create a system where beings would have to kill other things in order to survive?

Now, the ones saying "He did, but then the fall happened"... Well, did this fall change the anatomy of every living being or was it just spiritual? Because some are actually designed to kill.

When God recreates heaven and Earth will he change the anatomy so beings won't have to kill in order to survive?

Even breathing the air kills microscopic life, why all of the murder? Why didn't God make another system where all of that love would be reflected in creation?

reply to post by arpgme

Why didn't God make another system where all of that love would be reflected in creation?

I was recently called a pagan on another thread. It was probably not a justifiable application of the term but it did cause me to think about it a bit. I think the definition of "pagan" in that person's mind who accused me of that would be something like, non-Jewish, in other words, of a gentile origin. Now it may be useful to imagine a world where somehow the Jews ruled the world and no science can be allowed to exist which the rabbis felt contradicted the Old Testament. You would have people saying in your science class at school that lightning comes from YHWH riding his chariot on the tops of the clouds. If the child in the class asked, "But we have airplanes where people can get above the clouds and they don't see YHWH up there making the lightning", then he would be taken outside and stoned to death.
So what you do have with Christianity is a breaking away from the absolute authority of that old book and people were now free to adopt more modern ideas about how and why the world is the way it is.
One of those ideas is something we can pick up from a "pagan" who would have been relatively contemporary by the name of Aristotle, someone regularly maligned today (by ignorant people) but he was one of the earliest proponents of what we would call today, scientific method, which is a way of basing conclusions on actual fact instead of assumptions and to use logic to figure out what they mean. He adopted a lot of the philosophy of the Stoics and he says their information comes from The Ancients, who were wise people and so their ideas survived over a long enough period of time to where we can know them now.
The basic concept is that things occurred to create the universe and it was a tremendous thing which was this process but it did result in a universe that we obviously live in and it may not be perfect for everyone all the time but we can manage but we need the help of God to properly flourish in this universe, but even the Gods know there are things that are futile to try to resist and are just built into the nature of the universe.

Originally posted by arpgme
People are saying the obvious answers from science "survival", "balance", but they aren't taking the "God = Love" part into the question...

Watch a cheetah chase and kill a gazelle. Isn't that exhilarating? God if he exists probably thinks it is exhilarating too. Watch the Spartans chopping people up in "300". Isn't that exciting?

Sorry, I guess I'm missing your point.

reply to post by arpgme


If god existed why would animals kills? Well to feed themselves. But more importantly, why would we have rapists, pedophiles, murderers, torture...etc? Because God doen't exist. "God" was invented so people wouldn't be as afraid to die and would help them to cope with death and hide the fact that when you die...you die. You don't go to heaven nor do you go to hell. Even if he did exist, he doesn't give a rats a$$ about you or me. If he did we would have the aforementioned.

1) If God is Love, and Love is an Emotion, then God would be an emotion but God is not just an Emotion if He is Actual whereas this thread supposes He is. Therefor, we must correct our definition of Love for this thread first and foremost.

2) Before the "fall" of man into sin, there was no sin, and no wages for sin which is death. Therefor, life was eternal in Eden with no need to support one's own life through eating.

3) Animals aren't Humans. Animals weren't made in the image of God, nor was the breath of life (living soul) breathed into animals as it was breathed into Adam. God lives within the hearts of man; our bodies are the temple of God's Holy Spirit which is defined by Love, Joy, Self-control, Kindness, Peace, Patience, Goodness, Gentleness, and Faithfulness, and without Jesus through which we now have access to said Holy Spirit, mankind would have example of selfish Animalism.


I believe the problem with this threads line of thinking is that animals are human and humans are animals. Without God this might be the case, but if we are to call ourselves mankind then we are conceding to being fashioned in the likeness of "Man," whereas Jesus is the "Son of Man," and we are "mankind," in mind, body, and spirit. This is why animals don't have or need the Holy Spirit wherein love is defined, they aren't created for that capacity. Whereas animals follow the path of nature, Mankind ought to follow the path of God.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
1) If God is Love, and Love is an Emotion, then God would be an emotion but God is not just an Emotion if He is Actual whereas this thread supposes He is. Therefor, we must correct our definition of Love for this thread first and foremost.

God is love and God is hate. God is anger, pride, lust, and sloth. God is space, matter, energy and time.
God is everything, or he is nothing.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
2) Before the "fall" of man into sin, there was no sin, and no wages for sin which is death. Therefor, life was eternal in Eden with no need to support one's own life through eating.

Eternal life is a physical impossibility in this universe. The universe is governed by unbreakable laws, many which we have only began to understand in the last few hundred years (or as jmdewey suggested, the ancients understood but only portions of that knowlege were preserved). One such law is the law of conservation of energy, that energy is finite and must be obtained and expended in order for life to exist. If life was eternal before the "fall" then living beings in eden must have possessed infinite energy.

Oh, and didn't God tell Adam he could eat of any tree in eden except for the tree of knowlege of good and evil? Doesn't this suggest that eating was a necessary act even in eden?

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
3) Animals aren't Humans. Animals weren't made in the image of God, nor was the breath of life (living soul) breathed into animals as it was breathed into Adam. God lives within the hearts of man; our bodies are the temple of God's Holy Spirit which is defined by Love, Joy, Self-control, Kindness, Peace, Patience, Goodness, Gentleness, and Faithfulness, and without Jesus through which we now have access to said Holy Spirit, mankind would have example of selfish Animalism.

Animals aren't Humans, but Humans are animals. These days we define Animals as any multicellular eukaryotic organism. I don't suppose that means much to you, but I will tell you that both Humans and Animals are multicellular eukaryotic organisms. Other animals don't possess the requisite DNA, opposable thumbs and large brains to be defined as human.

It is foolish to suggest that Humans are defined mainly by the emotion of love or the presence of a soul.
You cannot prove that animals do not feel love; my observations have shown quite the opposite.
You cannot prove the presence or absence of a soul in Humans or Animals.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff

3) Animals aren't Humans. Animals weren't made in the image of God, nor was the breath of life (living soul) breathed into animals as it was breathed into Adam. God lives within the hearts of man; our bodies are the temple of God's Holy Spirit which is defined by Love, Joy, Self-control, Kindness, Peace, Patience, Goodness, Gentleness, and Faithfulness, and without Jesus through which we now have access to said Holy Spirit, mankind would have example of selfish Animalism.


I believe the problem with this threads line of thinking is that animals are human and humans are animals. Without God this might be the case, but if we are to call ourselves mankind then we are conceding to being fashioned in the likeness of "Man," whereas Jesus is the "Son of Man," and we are "mankind," in mind, body, and spirit. This is why animals don't have or need the Holy Spirit wherein love is defined, they aren't created for that capacity. Whereas animals follow the path of nature, Mankind ought to follow the path of God.

edit on 18-1-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: (no reason given)

Animals do exhibit: "Love, Joy, Self-control, Kindness, Peace, Patience, Goodness, Gentleness, and Faithfulness".

This cute little kitty showed up on my front porch and stayed with me for a few days, until I could find her a home. My adult cat, Sookie, was so upset about this that she went out and got a mouse, just to show me how mad she was, and killed it in front of us.

My cats kill for fun too. They certainly don't do it for the food. I am constantly rescuing lizards that they bring into the house to play with, and then abandon. I hope the "lizard goddess" looks down upon me with lizard smiles.

reply to post by cloudyday


Star for mentioning something I forgot to address.

Originally posted by cloudyday

Originally posted by arpgme
People are saying the obvious answers from science "survival", "balance", but they aren't taking the "God = Love" part into the question...

Watch a cheetah chase and kill a gazelle. Isn't that exhilarating? God if he exists probably thinks it is exhilarating too. Watch the Spartans chopping people up in "300". Isn't that exciting?

Sorry, I guess I'm missing your point.

It is exhilarating indeed, but also a bit frightening.

If God is omniscient, wouldn't that mean he could experience the chase from both the gazelle's and the cheetah's point of view?

Also, I remember seeing a photo of some cheetahs hanging out with a baby gazelle (or something similar), patting it on the head, letting it lick their fur. Similar to the way we treat our pets. They let it live, didn't kill it for fun or sport. Food for thought.

In order to analyze this question properly you need to know what happens after death. What if death is a release into paradise? What if death brings nothing? We simply don't know, so how can we speculate on the cruelty of the situation?

reply to post by Glass



Certainly God, and only God, has the right to love that which he loves and detest that which he hates. Only He has the right to be proud, or angry, or lust (although not as men lust), sloth (although God is rather patient where we are lazy). God is perhaps everything and in His own perfect right exists as everything but if God is God and is all Good in His decisions then we are no people to judge what we do not understand simply because we are the finite in this equation.


Apart from the Infinite creator, physical life is certainly an impossibility but that doesn't mean our souls are bound by the laws of a physically binding universe. And again, while with the infinite, He would be our infinite source of life. Too, eating doesn't necessarily imply consumption for sustenance. Perhaps it was merely a pleasure to experience life with the senses, like taste.


I have a Bachelors of Science so I understand Science's definition of what it is to be an animal but metaphysically speaking, non-human animals don't exists in a world of right and wrong, or good and bad as we do. Non-human animals don't live to achieve self-actualization (see Maslow Hierachy) as we do. Emotional regulation is an exclusive construct of our human beingness.


Affection is an Emotion we feel; Love is Godliness in deed and truth.
I don't care to prove that animals do not feel affection because I know they do but I find love and the concept thereof to be exclusively human. Too, there is no need to debate existence or non-existence of a soul in this thread because no evidence, tangible or otherwise, exists for or against such matter. Simply because no evidence exists for something's existence doesn't necessarily mean that that something does or doesn't exist which is the fundamental fallacy in your argument.

Originally posted by Enlightenme1111
In order to analyze this question properly you need to know what happens after death. What if death is a release into paradise? What if death brings nothing? We simply don't know, so how can we speculate on the cruelty of the situation?

.
Death has nothing to do with this question. If God is love, then the system of his creation should reflect that... Yet killing is a necessary part of life in order to survive.

Originally posted by arpgme

Originally posted by Enlightenme1111
In order to analyze this question properly you need to know what happens after death. What if death is a release into paradise? What if death brings nothing? We simply don't know, so how can we speculate on the cruelty of the situation?

.
Death has nothing to do with this question. If God is love, then the system of his creation should reflect that... Yet killing is a necessary part of life in order to survive.

We're only able to see a limited view of God's system of creation. If we don't understand the entire process of life and death, then we can't possibly know if killing for food is cruel. If death is the end, then yes, I agree that our creator is unmerciful and sadistic.

reply to post by Enlightenme1111


Yes, but God is basically forcing us to get out of love for our own selfish survival. I'm sure God could have made a more loving system where we would be able to never kill if we didn't want, right?

Even if death is a paradise, why wouldn't God make this knowledge known to those who are asking and allow them to live in fear?

reply to post by arpgme


I have to agree that on the surface it seems like humans and animals are just toys for the creator, and we're not being played with in the best way. I like your post because it does get the mind working towards uncomfortable truths that we are naturally inclined to block out. Perhaps God is all things, and love is just a part of the whole.

Originally posted by XLR8R
reply to post by arpgme

 

If god existed why would animals kills? Well to feed themselves. But more importantly, why would we have rapists, pedophiles, murderers, torture...etc? Because God doen't exist. "God" was invented so people wouldn't be as afraid to die and would help them to cope with death and hide the fact that when you die...you die. You don't go to heaven nor do you go to hell. Even if he did exist, he doesn't give a rats a$$ about you or me. If he did we would have the aforementioned.

edit on 18-1-2012 by XLR8R because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-1-2012 by XLR8R because: (no reason given)

Sorry. Your reasoning is to easy and you have not experianced things that would give you proof. I was ready to leave this place and go into nonexistance because I did not want to be here anymore. I was not allowed to leave this "prison" yeet and was shown some information that gave me the explanation I needed. I do not fear death because I have the physical proof of chi that proves that something more exists. Death whenever it comes for me is not a bad thing. It is the release from this small existance and the experiances that I have had on this planet. But I do not belive the whole bible. Why limit myself from seing only one side of the description of the devine. I am what I am, not more or less and my soul is still evolving. The reason this place is so warped are the ego of every person and stupid lessons that this systems teach us to live by. Society reaps what is seeding. Karma can be a bitch and being on a evolving Helllike planet with unenlightened souls is not always fun. But it is a great place for a soul to see "what not to do" and "how not to act" and "pay for past misstakes". God is the biggest teacher of responsability and most of the times when god teaches you things in history most people just don't listen and continue doing the same thing over again in "the dream" and do not want to pay the price that is needed to make an ideal society.

reply to post by Enlightenme1111


Or maybe God is happiness and that is why all beings crave it and why people are willing to sacrifice anything to get it. And why animals kill for their own survival without caring for the other... and why so many people are selfish...