Richard Dawkins Celebrates a Victory over Creationists, page 1


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Topic started on 17-1-2012 @ 09:08 PM by Astyanax
In a recent thread, I proposed that intelligent design is dead – that the intelligent design movement (which combines the political demand to teach a form of creationism in schools as an alternative to evolutionary theory with a programme of pseudoscientific 'research' to prove that life on Earth was created) has failed in its objectives and has now run out of steam.

Of course, the thread quickly degenerated into the usual 'creationism is true!/no, evolution is true!' ping-pong match. A few ID supporters did attempt to post evidence for life in the movement, but all they were able to come up with were a few obscure papers, some of dubious provenance, that referenced intelligent design without necessarily supporting it. The summary result of that effort was to suggest that ID is indeed dead.

And today, we read of another defeat for the intelligent design movement, this time in the UK:

Richard Dawkins Celebrates a Victory over Creationists

Leading scientists and naturalists, including Professor Richard Dawkins and Sir David Attenborough, are claiming a victory over the creationist movement after the government ratified measures that will bar anti-evolution groups from teaching creationism in science classes.

The Department for Education has revised its model funding agreement, allowing the education secretary to withdraw cash from schools that fail to meet strict criteria relating to what they teach. Under the new agreement, funding will be withdrawn for any free school that teaches what it claims are "evidence-based views or theories" that run "contrary to established scientific and/or historical evidence and explanations".

It seems – and sensible people, who want their children properly educated, will breathe a sigh of relief at this – that in the UK, for the foreseeable future, intelligent design really is finished.


reply posted on 17-1-2012 @ 09:18 PM by skonaz
reply to post by Astyanax



I don't understand why they have to be mutually exclusive -

Surely evolution could be designed intelligently ?


reply posted on 17-1-2012 @ 09:19 PM by mr-lizard
Originally posted by skonaz
reply to
post by Astyanax



I don't understand why they have to be mutually exclusive -

Surely evolution could be designed intelligently ?


Or indeed intelligence could have evolved?

Always hold a mirror to every argument.



reply posted on 17-1-2012 @ 09:25 PM by skonaz
Originally posted by mr-lizard
Originally posted by skonaz
reply to
post by Astyanax



I don't understand why they have to be mutually exclusive -

Surely evolution could be designed intelligently ?


Or indeed intelligence could have evolved?

Always hold a mirror to every argument.



Touche' !


reply posted on 17-1-2012 @ 09:27 PM by Astyanax
reply to post by skonaz


Yours was a very quick response, I must say. The thread's only been up five minutes.

Life may well have been created, but there is no scientific evidence to show that it was. Therefore, you cannot honestly teach creationism in schools as if it were true.

It certainly is possible that life was originally created, even if it isn't very likely.

edit on 17/1/12 by Astyanax because: of repetition.



reply posted on 17-1-2012 @ 10:12 PM by Xcalibur254
reply to post by oak123



Creationism/Intelligent Design only has a place in a comparative religions class. It has no basis in empirical data or historical record. Of course the ID/Creationist groups tend to lean towards a Christian worldview therefore they probably wouldn't be happy with it being taught in a comp. religions class as that would involve teaching all creation myths.


reply posted on 17-1-2012 @ 10:16 PM by benrl
Because school is the place where we learn absolute truths...

Things you learned in school that are wrong

School is not about education its about indoctrination into societal norms

All this shows is as a country we are moving to a post-theological society and school is merely changing to reflect that.

Lets not get all high and mighty about how schools should be bastions of true knowledge, they are not and never have been.

Look up the protest that arose when school was first made mandatory in the US, many felt it was to destroy the power of the individual skilled labor, with the invention of the assembly line it became more important to have drones than free thinking trades men, but that's a thread all in of itself.
edit on 17-1-2012 by benrl because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 17-1-2012 @ 10:17 PM by rom12345
I am glad that schools are required to teach truth. If we consider, the intelligence that is clearly evident in the universe, with regards to Pantheism we can reconcile this debate with spirituality. If one is to believe that intelligence can arise from evolution, it would also stand to reason that intelligence can be present in non biological systems with sufficient complexity. It would appear that much of the universe exhibits self-similarity, so with this in mind, I certainly believe that there exists Universal intelligence of some sort.
edit on 17-1-2012 by rom12345 because: (no reason given)




reply posted on 17-1-2012 @ 11:13 PM by Rren
Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to
post by skonaz


{..}

Life may well have been created, but there is no scientific evidence to show that it was.



If we are defining "evidence" as pure data, than true enough. But, "scientific evidence" as an interpretation of that data is something completely different. Or, if I may turn it around on you: Life may well have been the result of blind pitiless indifference, but there is no scientific evidence to show that it was. In other words (and I was slow to accept this) an Intelligent Design hypothesis is just as unscientifc as a Blind Watchmaker one. They are both philosophical positions and are only scientific in so-much as they are interpretations of the same [scientific] data. For what it's worth, I make a distiction here between ID and (special) Creationism.





Therefore, you cannot honestly teach creationism in schools as if it were true.


Agreed; nor should we teach ID or Blind Watchmaker. Stick to the science (e.g., common ancestry/mechanisms etc.)

It certainly is possible that life was originally created, even if it isn't very likely.


It certainly is possible that life has the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference, even if it isn't very likely. Or, if I may show off my intellectual chops: My philosophy is rubber, yours is glue, what you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

Lets keep science in the classroom... the culture war crap can stay on the inter-tubez.

Regards.


reply posted on 17-1-2012 @ 11:23 PM by alienreality
reply to post by predator0187



You say evolution is not intelligent, but I say it is definitely intelligent... Not like a thinking person, but definitely programmed to be... If not, then why does it have processes that would make a certain thing better over time? Why not worse? It seems to be making a choice there to improve upon things... And how can DNA know if improving should be desired unless it was imbued to do that somehow? Who is making that choice?


reply posted on 18-1-2012 @ 12:01 AM by Kandinsky
reply to post by alienreality

You're suggesting that evolution is a process towards an end-game - some inherent drive and intelligent motivation.

This *might* be the case, but as far as we currently know, it isn't and neither does the model require intelligence or design (programming) to have logical integrity.

In cases where organisms failed to adapt to the environment, they would become extinct or subsumed into the more successful species. In this way, loosely, you could have an answer to your 'why not worse' question.

That we are chewing over Creationism and evolution, on a system for communication using technology, doesn't make us *better* than a Homo Heidelbergensis or Neanderthal were back in their day. They are extinct whilst we are here to discuss if we're special or not.

It wasn't the *fault* of evolution, or a glitch in its programming - not every species can survive in a competitive environment. Also, even successful species can be met with extinction from fast environmental changes that exceed its capacity to adapt quickly enough - or their intelligence.
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