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posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 12:01 AM
Unless the OP would prefer the conversation elsewhere, I'll just continue here... so...

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Awen24

The death conferred on to creation as a result of the fall is expressly instituted in MAN.

How is it just for God to curse all of his creation based on the sins of just Adam and Eve? Surely, let's say, Gazelles, did nothing wrong to deserve suddenly being the favorite meal of lions. Also, while some carnivores have been known to eat plant life, plants do not grow everywhere that carnivore's live in enough abundance to feed metabolisms like there's. If you're going to suggest that ALL the animals lived in Eden and thus had enough food this only compounds the problem as there are millions and millions of animal species and Eden is meant to be on Earth.

God didn't curse all of creation. But what DID happen at the fall is that man's sin affected everything around them; they corrupted everything they touched, effectively.

Regarding plant growth etc., you're making the mistake of assuming that a world pre-flood would be identical to today's world... where even the rapid global changes in the past century would suggest that the world operates on a basis that is anything but uniform. That said, you're also assuming that the world was created with millions and millions of animal species; again, an assumption that is not necessarily correct. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Bible does not concur with evolutionary theory on this front; rather, it teaches that all life devolves as a result of genetic corruption. Devolution causes speciation as a result of mutation. This process means that significantly less ancestors would have been necessary in Eden, or on the Ark, than you're assuming.

The inference is very clear: no human death occurred prior to the fall.

No it isn't. God had only just created Eve in Chapter 2. By Chapter 3 of Genesis they are banished from Eden. Had it given an amount of years they spent in Eden an inference could be made about whether they were immortal but it doesn't say how long it was. It also makes no direct statement about whether they were immortal or not. As sin did not exist in human beings prior to the Fall and, according to you, predatory animals were vegetarian at the time, and disease and such were all products of the Fall, there wouldn't be anything to test whether Adam and Eve were actually immortal. There would be nothing endangering them and thus no reason for them to die whether they were immortal or not.

The best that can be said is that the text doesn't RULE OUT that they were immortal.

Actually, Genesis explicitly states that the Tree of Life ensured that they would be immortal (at least, had they remained in Eden). God Himself says so in Genesis 3:22, where He states that He expelled Adam from Eden "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, AND LIVE FOREVER..."

This nullifies your argument of thousands of years, particularly given that the Word (Jesus Christ) is "the same yesterday, today and forever".

Only if you're gullible enough to believe the Bible's claim that it is the word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit. But any book can claim to be God inspired. The Bible was written by men.

Gullibility suggests that I am basing my view on the assertions of others. I am not. I am basing my opinion of God's Word on my own study of that text. Regardless, I made my point because you yourself made an assertion based on the book of Romans. If, however, you believe that the Bible is merely the product of man, then I fail to see how you can base your own arguments on it. Seems like a flawed approach to me. be continued:

posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 12:11 AM

Originally posted by questforevidence
In Mark Booth's book Secret History of the World as told by the Secret Societies (or Mystery Schools) some of the first people were actually plants. The way we evolved was Minerals > Plants > Animals > Humans as seen in The Wizard of Oz. The Tin Man > The Scarecrow guy > The Cowardly Lion > and Dorothy.

Nope, were still minerals. Were 80% water and the rest minerals that can be found in regular old dirt. This gives validity to God spitting on the dirt and forming us out of the mud/clay (wet dirt).

Folks fall into creation science becaue theyre trying to justify God's word to counter modern science. The truth is science and the bible validate eachother...if you know where to find it and how to look for it and most people fail at this.

Your theory kinda reminds me of the Mayan's story of man's creation. First "God" used rocks, but they didn't do very well so he wiped them out and made man out of clay, but they didn't do so well. Boil that down 5 times and the final incarnation of man was created from corn (hence the hair).

I think there were 2 other earths before this one, were in the 3rd earth age i think, the 3rd and final age according to some biblical scholars.
edit on 20-1-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 12:18 AM

...I'm suggesting that the long lifespan of man led to a number of issues prior to the flood that God wished to spare us from after the flood.

But you're making my point for me. If letting human kind leave the garden of Eden full of sin with an almost millennial lifespan led to a "number of issues" this implies that God made a mistake. Of course one could just as easily argue that creating imperfect beings that could be corrupted and then putting the thing that could easily corrupt them within their grasp and then pointing it out to them without ever giving them a sense of right and wrong is a pretty big mistake. If God were perfect things would have gone perfectly.

I understand where you're coming from on this; though I'd consider the issue of man's mortality to be somewhat secondary to your final assertion, that "if God were perfect, things would have gone perfectly".

I look at it in this way. This is by no means an exhaustive answer to your (quite justified) question, but it's something that does help me - as I struggled with this question once too. I've often heard people say "you never know how dark it is until you see the light". It's cliche, but let's not worry about that for the moment.

The point is, though, that it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to appreciably understand just how GOOD something is unless you've seen the flipside. So, being born into a world of perfection, knowing nothing but goodness, you lose that sense of value, at least to some degree.

Beyond that, though, you also lose a measure by which to gauge the depth of God's love for us all. The BIble puts it in these terms: "By this we know love: that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us". What this shows us is that God was willing to sacrifice His own Son to save something totally unworthy of being saved at all. There's something truly amazing about this. None of this, however, was accidental. It's not a knee-jerk reaction on God's part, a sort of "oh, crap, my creation's all screwed up... better fix that". Rather, the Bible refers to Jesus as "the Lamb that was slain from before the Creation of the world". What it's saying here is that the plan to send Jesus Christ into the world to die, the plan to redeem both mankind and the world he lives in, is something that God had in mind even before He created anything.

This expression of love, the ULTIMATE expression of love, is only made possible by sin. As painful and difficult as it is to understand, the full depth and breadth of God's love for Adam and Eve was only able to be shown fully and completely in the fact that they didn't deserve God's goodness, and yet received it nonetheless.

Could these things have been achieved or proven in another way?
That, I don't know the answer to. If it was possible, I don't know how. And still there are things that surround this question, answers to be sought, that I don't fully understand yet. But knowing what I do, I can say with full confidence that God is good. His reasons likewise are always perfect, and His love without boundary. The reasons for all of these things exist, and I will continue to seek them in Scripture, as I always have.

I encourage you to do the same. You clearly have issues with God's Word, which is fine, but if you're truly going to deny and defy ignorance, shouldn't you at least be informed? And that doesn't mean sitting down once and reading the Bible from cover to cover (trust me, you'd grind to a halt somewhere in Leviticus
), but it does mean earnestly seeking answers, earnestly asking God why He operates the way He does... and then fully expecting those answers to come.

As I've said before in this thread, God has no fear of those who question. It's those who never ask at all that are in real danger.

the more convinced I become that God's Word

How are you even convinced that it is "God's Word" to begin with...

That really requires a very, very long answer. There are so many fronts on which to answer... but the single most convincing element of the Bible, for me, is prophecy.
The Bible is the only book I have ever read whose prophecy is so utterly specific that it could not possibly occur by chance... and such prophecy exists not once or twice, or even a handful of times, but almost 2000 times throughout the book. By the Bible's own standards, if it screws up once, it should be rejected... but it doesn't. It simply never falters.

For a single concrete example, read the book of Daniel. It prophecies the rise and fall of four great empires, and is so frighteningly accurate that some scholars have tried to argue that it was written AFTER the events that it describes... only problem being that we know the date for the book!

Anyway. I could write so much more, but I haven't the time or space. Hope that helps though!
edit on 20-1-2012 by Awen24 because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-1-2012 by Awen24 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 12:44 AM
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Um Maybe back then when the world was Gods way. The lion did lay down with the lamb. I'd like to see you say it didn't happen.

At one time everything was immortal. True immortality means you can't die. I'm sure eating wouldn't matter.

Ask me anything.

And I think I answered OP perfectly fine. Sorry if you can find problems with everything.
For all you or I know the earth is home to a more real, perfect, spiritual reality than this temporary unreal imperfect material world. I can't answer all your boring down to earth childlike questions . But whether or not you want to wait for them. The answers will come. Be patient.

Your disbelief is diminishing to only yourself. Disbelief in God takes so to much away from man..

I believe we are all that is left, of what once was perfect in everyway.
edit on 20-1-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 03:37 PM
For some reason my last post never was posted hate it when that happens
! Anyways just wanted to say I appreciate all the good insight on the subject so carry on! I never thought that I would get so many different responses but there I go again thinking silly me. It is the #1 selling book of all time is what im told so there would have to be so many different opinions makes sense to me!

posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 06:29 PM
reply to post by WEALLNEED2KNOW

Wonderful! Just please do get you a King James Bible before you go any further. You will be much better off, spiritually and practically.

posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 06:47 PM

Originally posted by WEALLNEED2KNOW
For some reason my last post never was posted hate it when that happens
! Anyways just wanted to say I appreciate all the good insight on the subject so carry on! I never thought that I would get so many different responses but there I go again thinking silly me. It is the #1 selling book of all time is what im told so there would have to be so many different opinions makes sense to me!

I'm glad you've found some useful info in all the chatter!
Keep on asking good questions - it's only then you find good answers!

posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 01:28 PM
reply to post by WEALLNEED2KNOW

reply to post by arpgme 

First off Hell is not for enternity! People have misunderstood that in the bible. 

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

"The wages of sin is death" that is the final punishment of the non elect,death. God is merciful,it is only the cruelness of man that such a creature would want a fellow human to suffer such great agony for ever. 

Remember the rule God set up in the bible when paul was beaten. A person could only receive 40 stripes save one. So 39 stripes(because 40 stripes is almost enough to kill someone) Throughout the bible you will find that when a person suffers it is only for a short while. The two thief's at the cross both suffered for a short while then the one on the left entered death he is non existence no suffering in a place called hell. (In fact the word for hell actually means grave). 

The thief on the right entered into the greatest joy a human can receive he entered into paradise. 

Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 
Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee , Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. 

But anyways to the point 

You said that baby could be saved because the can't accept Jesus . Well first off John the baptist was saved in the womb,before he was even conceived. Secondly accepting Jesus doesn't mean anything this is a false teaching. No one accepts Jesus. Jesus accepts you. 

Tts 3:Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 

Everyone is evil there is not one person better than the other I'm just as wicked as Hitler or as Martin Luther king we are all sinners. 

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 

There are many people in the bible who believed on Jesus but were not saved for example judas iscariot is one,Saul believed in God but wasn't saved. There was a great multitude following Jesus that turned away because they loved the things of this world! 

There is a verse that says that says something like this " you believe then you do well. The devils also believe and tremble! So just because you believe doesn't mean your saved. 

So yes hitler COULD have been saved or Could have been unsaved. Only God knows the heart. And to many people this would make them mad that hitler might be saved, but people must remember ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD! 

You are almost right about the last thing you wrote we are not saved by works but by grace that is the Grace of God. But we can't accept Jesus Jesus accepts us. Accepting Jesus is a work. 

Sorry for the long post but I hope this answers some or all of your questions/comments. 

Remember God is a merciful God we always tend to look at all the bad things that happen and say "Gods not merciful) but it's our sin that has caused all the bad in this world. Just look at all the Mercies of God. Start with every single heartbeat. For his mercies are more in number than the sand that is by the seashore or the stars in the heavens!

posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 01:31 PM
reply to post by WEALLNEED2KNOW

I highly recommend that you do not read the NIV bible it one of the least accurate bibles. I highly recommend that you read the original Kjv not the newer ones but the original kjv or the youngs litteral just type in on google kj3 or for the original kjv

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