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Fluoride Linked to #1 Cause of Death in New Research

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posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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There are a number of family members who have died in my family from heart problems. They all liked to drink tap water thinking there were no toxins in the water. This is deeply upsetting to me to realize the government played a role in their deaths. The world id a terrible place when realizations like these occur.




posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by kokoro

Originally posted by MagnumOpus




Anyone that leds off with the term debunk isn't a scientists and is always a political pundit, usually one up to no good with a political spin to toss out. No scientist of any respect using the word debunk, and it part of the methods and languages of those that seek to sell disinformation and derail the public's vision of the truth.

I well know the uses of F-18 tracer isotopes with PET scanners, and a real scientist finds it highly important that F-18 lands in these areas of his calcium concentrations that require stints to put a band-aide on the problem.

Real scientists and persons of science recognize that fluoride likes the calcium in arterial walls and this trips the additional accumulation of calcium deposits and then more fluoride and the deposit grows.


Your little diatribe on these F-18 tracer studies is plain garbage science opinion. imho



Strawman... Ive never said anything even remotely political, and your attempt to paint me as some kind of disinfo agent just comes off as desperate, its a diversion tactic to cover the fact that you don't have a leg to stand on or any real rational response grounded in fact.

Yes the fluoride tracer does bond to the calcium, that is what it is supposed to do. The study does not in any way link fluoride usage to a build up of calcium. The tracer is degraded by the body and leaves via the kidneys. It is radioactive so if it remained you would be able to see it on subsequent scans. This is not the case
The only context that fluoride is mentioned in the article is its use as a diagnostic tool. Never is it mentioned as a contributing factor.



Now you have been caught with deceptive logic and failure to explain the process well and accurately. imho

PET Scanners have to employ nuclear accelerators (small Cyclotrons) to make the short lived tracers like F-18. Which means they make it on site, do the injection quickly and run the scan quickly.

The half-life of F-18 is 109 minutes and you don't even know the process well enough to make intelligent and logical comments on how F-18 is detectable in the body using PET Scanners and its decay product.

With such a quick half-life the F-18 goes back to Oxygen quickly, which does not have the retention properties of fluorine in the body. So, the comparison of F-18 with the properties of elemental fluorine are not possible, and it is misleading to suggest fluorine-18 leaves the body in the same way as elemental fluorine. So, when did oxygen leave the body via Kidney?

Yet, you fail to tell people the properties of F-18 in the body and that it doesn't stay chemically Fluorine. imho

In real fluorine studies the fluorine combines with calcium in arterial walls, this tends to have more calcium accumulate, then it follows with more fluoride from the blood stream, and so on. Similar to the Pineal Gland issues of fluorine and calcium accumulation.


edit on 20-1-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Bogus science



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by MagnumOpus


Now you have been caught with deceptive logic and failure to explain the process well and accurately. imho

PET Scanners have to employ nuclear accelerators (small Cyclotrons) to make the short lived tracers like F-18. Which means they make it on site, do the injection quickly and run the scan quickly.

The half-life of F-18 is 109 minutes and you don't even know the process well enough to make intelligent and logical comments on how F-18 is detectable in the body using PET Scanners and its decay product.

With such a quick half-life the F-18 goes back to Oxygen quickly, which does not have the retention properties of fluorine in the body. So, the comparison of F-18 with the properties of elemental fluorine are not possible, and it is misleading to suggest fluorine-18 leaves the body in the same way as elemental fluorine. So, when did oxygen leave the body via Kidney?

Yet, you fail to tell people the properties of F-18 in the body and that it doesn't stay chemically Fluorine. imho

In real fluorine studies the fluorine combines with calcium in arterial walls, this tends to have more calcium accumulate, then it follows with more fluoride from the blood stream, and so on. Similar to the Pineal Gland issues of fluorine and calcium accumulation.


edit on 20-1-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Bogus science


you have caught me in nothing, I said above that it is degraded and then leaves the body which is accurate. Not that is matters to the core debate here but:

The renal elimination of Fludeoxyglucose




Fludeoxyglucose F 18 that is not involved in glucose metabolism in any tissue is then excreted in the urine.




Elimination: Fludeoxyglucose F 18 is cleared from most tissues within 24 hours and can be eliminated from the body unchanged in the urine.



I made no comparison between F18 and fluorine in drinking water, you did. You used this study that uses F18 in imaging and extrapolated that to mean that drinking fluoride exacerbates or causes the growth of calcium deposits in the arteries when the study makes no connection whatsoever. I have never said drinking fluoridated water was 100% safe. I have only said that this study is not evidence of anything other than the fact that F18 is useful in diagnosis of arterial disease. It make no mention of fluoridated water consumption yet you are trying to make a connection here that is not logical and doesn't exist.

My challenge still stands, show me in the article where it states that fluoride causes the additional build up of calcium deposits.
edit on 20-1-2012 by kokoro because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by MagnumOpus



In real fluorine studies the fluorine combines with calcium in arterial walls, this tends to have more calcium accumulate, then it follows with more fluoride from the blood stream, and so on. Similar to the Pineal Gland issues of fluorine and calcium accumulation.


edit on 20-1-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Bogus science



Great, lets take a look at one of those "real" fluorine studies then....



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by kokoro

Originally posted by MagnumOpus



In real fluorine studies the fluorine combines with calcium in arterial walls, this tends to have more calcium accumulate, then it follows with more fluoride from the blood stream, and so on. Similar to the Pineal Gland issues of fluorine and calcium accumulation.


edit on 20-1-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Bogus science



Great, lets take a look at one of those "real" fluorine studies then....



Looks to me like you even failed to tell the Forum about the issues of myelin, the coating on the nerves that is high in calcium, and how fluorine likes these areas also and is tied with the neurological issues of fluoride.

It appears you also failed to mention that fluorine likes the calcium in arterial walls, and that fluorine really likes the hydrogen in the highly saturated fats loaded with lots of hydrogen. Thus, why the normal fats don't cause the problems that the hydrogenated fats cause for arterial blockage is also well associated with fluorine bonds to calcium in arterial walls. imho



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by kokoro

Originally posted by MagnumOpus


Now you have been caught with deceptive logic and failure to explain the process well and accurately. imho

PET Scanners have to employ nuclear accelerators (small Cyclotrons) to make the short lived tracers like F-18. Which means they make it on site, do the injection quickly and run the scan quickly.

The half-life of F-18 is 109 minutes and you don't even know the process well enough to make intelligent and logical comments on how F-18 is detectable in the body using PET Scanners and its decay product.

With such a quick half-life the F-18 goes back to Oxygen quickly, which does not have the retention properties of fluorine in the body. So, the comparison of F-18 with the properties of elemental fluorine are not possible, and it is misleading to suggest fluorine-18 leaves the body in the same way as elemental fluorine. So, when did oxygen leave the body via Kidney?

Yet, you fail to tell people the properties of F-18 in the body and that it doesn't stay chemically Fluorine. imho

In real fluorine studies the fluorine combines with calcium in arterial walls, this tends to have more calcium accumulate, then it follows with more fluoride from the blood stream, and so on. Similar to the Pineal Gland issues of fluorine and calcium accumulation.


edit on 20-1-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Bogus science


you have caught me in nothing, I said above that it is degraded and then leaves the body which is accurate. Not that is matters to the core debate here but:

The renal elimination of Fludeoxyglucose




Fludeoxyglucose F 18 that is not involved in glucose metabolism in any tissue is then excreted in the urine.




Elimination: Fludeoxyglucose F 18 is cleared from most tissues within 24 hours and can be eliminated from the body unchanged in the urine.



I made no comparison between F18 and fluorine in drinking water, you did. You used this study that uses F18 in imaging and extrapolated that to mean that drinking fluoride exacerbates or causes the growth of calcium deposits in the arteries when the study makes no connection whatsoever. I have never said drinking fluoridated water was 100% safe. I have only said that this study is not evidence of anything other than the fact that F18 is useful in diagnosis of arterial disease. It make no mention of fluoridated water consumption yet you are trying to make a connection here that is not logical and doesn't exist.

My challenge still stands, show me in the article where it states that fluoride causes the additional build up of calcium deposits.
edit on 20-1-2012 by kokoro because: (no reason given)



You do have a problem with sputtering about illogically and talking out of both sides of your mouth on fluoride studies. Everyone has seen where the gang around here tells that fluoride is so good at adding bone mass to the spine, and the fluoride likes the calcium in the spine. Now suddenly the same process can't be expected in the arterial walls with calcium and fluorine bonding. imho


Oh my, then get into the logic of fluorine in arterial walls and the issues of fully hydrogenated cooking oils and how those are extremely bad for arterial plaque when compared against the unsaturated normal fats and one then notices that fluorine plays a big role in that arterial clogging process as well.

Appears that you don't have good vision of the processes that all associate with fluotrine's tendency to remain and build inside the human body and the problems that associate with this process. imho


edit on 20-1-2012 by MagnumOpus because: vapidity of logic from the debunker non-sense makers



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by MagnumOpus



Looks to me like you even failed to tell the Forum about the issues of myelin, the coating on the nerves that is high in calcium, and how fluorine likes these areas also and is tied with the neurological issues of fluoride.

It appears you also failed to mention that fluorine likes the calcium in arterial walls, and that fluorine really likes the hydrogen in the highly saturated fats loaded with lots of hydrogen. Thus, why the normal fats don't cause the problems that the hydrogenated fats cause for arterial blockage is also well associated with fluorine bonds to calcium in arterial walls. imho



looks to me like you are throwing in everything but the kitchen sink to dodge the real issue and completely ignoring my request for evidence of your assertions. Just typing a paragraph O crap isn't evidence.
Your diversion tactics are lame.

Show me where the article says that fluoride causes calcium build up in arteries.



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by kokoro

Originally posted by MagnumOpus



Looks to me like you even failed to tell the Forum about the issues of myelin, the coating on the nerves that is high in calcium, and how fluorine likes these areas also and is tied with the neurological issues of fluoride.

It appears you also failed to mention that fluorine likes the calcium in arterial walls, and that fluorine really likes the hydrogen in the highly saturated fats loaded with lots of hydrogen. Thus, why the normal fats don't cause the problems that the hydrogenated fats cause for arterial blockage is also well associated with fluorine bonds to calcium in arterial walls. imho



looks to me like you are throwing in everything but the kitchen sink to dodge the real issue and completely ignoring my request for evidence of your assertions. Just typing a paragraph O crap isn't evidence.
Your diversion tactics are lame.

Show me where the article says that fluoride causes calcium build up in arteries.



That F-18 study appears a really good study that tells that fluorine targets the specific problem areas where arterial deposits are found.



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by MagnumOpus



You do have a problem with sputtering about illogically and talking out of both sides of your mouth on fluoride studies. Everyone has seen where the gang around here tells that fluoride is so good at adding bone mass to the spine, and the fluoride likes the calcium in the spine. Now suddenly the same process can't be expected in the arterial walls with calcium and fluorine bonding. imho


Oh my, then get into the logic of fluorine in arterial walls and the issues of fully hydrogenated cooking oils and how those are extremely bad for arterial plaque when compared against the unsaturated normal fats and one then notices that fluorine plays a big role in that arterial clogging process as well.

Appears that you don't have good vision of the processes that all associate with fluotrine's tendency to remain and build inside the human body and the problems that associate with this process. imho


edit on 20-1-2012 by MagnumOpus because: vapidity of logic from the debunker non-sense makers



I am sputtering illogically? what the hell is this post even saying?


I am asking you for some evidence...


EVIDENCE-- yes please!



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by MagnumOpus



That F-18 study appears a really good study that tells that fluorine targets the specific problem areas where arterial deposits are found.



That is what the F18 tracer is designed to do.


Now how does that = fluoride causes heart disease?


edit on 20-1-2012 by kokoro because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 07:58 PM
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Lets toss in some more important things to connect, since we have entered the domains of well water and fluoride. Most know that wells can be contaminated with high levels of fluoride and this happens primarily in the South West US and areas that stated the frosty white fluorosis of teeth that was termed Texas Teeth. If you knock around the West one finds a number of volcanic and basalt areas.

What one finds is geologically these areas often tie into what is called Basalt deposits, which stem from volcanic activity that is loaded with fluoride emissions. One of the things one finds with tea plants is they tolerate these volcanic and basalt areas better than other plants and so lots of tea plants are farmed in these areas. Tea has high fluoride and the darker black teas have the highest amounts. Tea plants also have adaptations that allow them to resist fluoride toxic effects more than most plants and these various biological compounds of the tea plant are about adaptations to fluorides harmfull effects.

Now, move these basalt studies down to the East African Rift Zone and we see this volcanic rift area is very active and causes huge fluoride problems in Ethiopia. One can move on up the Rift Zone to the area of the Dead Sea and find the old cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Here one finds these old cities literally covered in basalf deposits, if one visits them today. So, these wells in these areas would have being highly contaminated with fluoiride as this rift volcanic like activity began. The people would be drinking water loaded with fluoride from their wells, as the Dead Sea water is not potable for drinking. What we know is that high fluoride water causes large increases in areas of the body skeleton, like the spine. Not only would the spine get heavy with calcium build up, the people would become cripped and die. Those in these old times would see these skeletons and remark about the large changes in the skeletons and their remarks may be along the lines of turning to stone or calcified rocks.

Those that came later and decided to stay in this area were the Essene group of Jewish that settled in these areas and built a monestary. They produced the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was likely not a good idea to pick that area to live as the water would still have problems from the long term effects of basalt that is loaded with fluoride.

The Essene had the talent of being healers, and they lived in various places, like around Soddom and Gomorrah, some in Jerusalem, some up near the Mt. Carmel area to the North. What one notices to the North is that this area is loaded with Boron naturally. So, the Boron in the food and water from this Mt. Carmel and Jordan River area would highly counteract the negative effects of fluorides seen in those drinking well water from basalt regions. Along comes this fella they called John The Baptist and he is into Baptismal in the Boron rich waters of the Jordan River. He appears to be all excited about the natural gift of Boron in the water there, as he grew up in the areas with high fluoride in the water. The Nothern Essene tribe appear to have chosen the best place to live in that area due to geological feature issues. So, they thrive, become smarter, become known as healers of the sick, become the most pious and honest for those respecting of religion.

Once one notices the fluoride effects in the old Holy Land issues, one finds just how important the issues of Mother Nature is toward teaching the folks about differences in the water and soils of these two regions.

And, once one notices this big issue of religion, one can get the Bible folks to help the world expose the issues of fluoride and how it was part of the Biblical story of what God wanted people to learn from these old stories.


It also says that we can begin to associate the Pro-Fluoride types with the side of Satan and the Boron area Holy Land folks with God's true message. imho

I'd suggest recruiting some of the religion folks by showing them the very simple geological features that turned people to stone, and how the healing effects of the Northern Essene became called the healers and those that listened to what Nature was telling them of the different contaminates effects on human health and longevity.


Persons learning these geographical differences might well feel saved from the bad areas negative effects.




edit on 20-1-2012 by MagnumOpus because: following geology is important---and learning from nature and really old history is very valuable



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by kokoro
 


Hi kokoro, yes that is definitely part of it but what amazes me is that people just believe anything they read on the internet. I do wonder if being bombarded with quack info is effecting humanity in a way that we are regressing.



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 08:27 PM
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With that hot little item on the table about why Boron became important in the defenses against fluoride in the environment, there is a lot more to be able to associate by this old message of history from the Holy Lands.

In those times, they didn't know the names of compounds or elements. Then did know they saw something that worked and something that did bad things to people's skeletons.


What one can learn from the modern research from these areas is that areas of Israel are very high in Boron content and all these areas with medium to high boron content don't have any problems to amount to much from issues like arthritis and other problems that associate to the low level effects of fluoride build up in the bones and tendons.

This boron association with low or near zero rates of arthritus follow areas around the globe that have similar high levels of Boron in the water and soils. It even follows to some degree to the diet issues linked to folks eating the foods with higher boron content.

These days, the elder care vitamins have recognized the importance of boron in vitamins. In the US, the soils are highly depleted of boron, so few people get the right levels to offset the retention of fluoride in the human body. The US has not been blessed by nature in this respect, so the Boron has to be added into the food chain here or boron supplements have to be used.

I'll leave it to the Google Search Experts to do their fact checking for those associations of Boron and low rates of arthritis in Israel and other areas of similar boron levels.

Those that can really do simple google searches will find it rather amazing that the message on boron has been there right before their eyes for a long long time, and that this story of this region is were the super interest in boron as a defense against fluoride in the food and water chain came to light.


One of the things to take note of is all these health issues that Boron is connected with improving are all associated with the effects of low levels of fluoride on the human body.

====

Tea's connections with basalt areas and special defenses against fluoride:

organicjar.com...

Helps Prevent Heart Disease
Properties in green tea are very effective in breaking down plaque on artery walls and preventing the formation of blood clots. This helps prevent atherosclerosis, particularly coronary artery disease.






edit on 20-1-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Boron's discovery as Fluoride Defense

edit on 20-1-2012 by MagnumOpus because: tea, as specal fluoride defense



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by Malcher
reply to post by kokoro
 


Hi kokoro, yes that is definitely part of it but what amazes me is that people just believe anything they read on the internet. I do wonder if being bombarded with quack info is effecting humanity in a way that we are regressing.


You are certainly regressing, drink some more fluoride poison water.



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 08:32 PM
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reply to post by MagnumOpus
 



Sources? no

Evidence? no


EVIDENCE-------- raises hand---------- yes please!



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by kokoro
 


PMID:4024655[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 09:13 PM
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reply to post by kokoro
 


ISBN 0-913571-03-2 pp 47-57, p 60.


ISBN 0-87291-097-0 pp 151-153, p 360



www.fluoridealert.org...


Hardening of the Arteries

In a number of areas where people consume water containing 3 parts per million fluoride or more, calcification of the arteries has been clinically correlated with the fluoride-induced bone disorders described in Chapter 6. The indication again is that fibroblasts in the arterial cell walls are producing larger amounts of an imperfect collagen or collagen-like protein, resulting in hardening of the arteries or arteriosclerosis, the leading cause of death in the United States.

During aging, hardening of the arteries is probably due to disruption of collagen production, according to Dr. John Negalesko, director of the first year medical program at the Ohio State University Medical School and an expert in the field. Thus, fluoride, by disrupting the production of collagen and by stimulating the calcification of arteries, has speeded up another phase of the aging process...


=======

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Aortic calcification in chronic fluoride poisoning: biochemical and electronmicroscopic evidence.
Susheela AK, Kharb P.

====

www.springerlink.com...


edit on 20-1-2012 by MagnumOpus because: aeorta fluoide and calcium



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by MagnumOpus
reply to post by kokoro
 


PMID:4024655[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Thank you , that more like it. Ill be back...



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by kokoro

Originally posted by MagnumOpus
reply to post by kokoro
 


PMID:4024655[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Thank you , that more like it. Ill be back...


Don't rush. It isn't like fluoride references are difficult to find. Perhaps only for the debunkers that don't look.

NeoVan listed one---be sure to look that one up and post it.

====

General Resource:

www.slweb.org...

Fluoride Concentrations in Human Bone (back to top)

Alhava EM, et al. (1980). The Effect of Drinking Water Fluoridation on the Fluoride Content, Strength and Mineral Density of Human Bone. Acta Orthopaedica Scandinavica 51: 413-420.

Bohatyrewicz A. (2001). Bone fluoride in proximal femur fractures. Fluoride 34: 227-235.

Arnala I, et al. (1985). Effects of fluoride on bone in Finland. Histomorphometry of cadaver bone from low and high fluoride areas. Acta Orthopaedica Scandinavica 56(2):161-6.

Boivin G, et al. (1988). Fluoride content in human iliac bone: results in controls, patients with fluorosis, and osteoporotic patients treated with fluoride. Journal of Bone and Mineral Research 3(5):497-502.

Call RA, et al. (1965). Histological and chemical studies in man on effects of fluoride. Public Health Reports 80: 529-538.

Charen J, et al. (1979). Bone fluoride concentrations associated with fluoridated drinking water. Calcified Tissue International 27(2):95-9.

Cohen-Solal ME, et al. (2002). Fluoride and strontium accumulation in bone does not correlate with osteoid tissue in dialysis patients. Nephrology Dialysis Transplantation 17: 449–454.

Eble DM, et al. (1992). Fluoride concentrations in human and rat bone. Journal of Public Health Dentistry 52: 288-291.

Glock GE, et al. (1941). The retention and elimination of fluoride in bones. Biochemical Journal 35: 1235-1239.

Hefti A, Marthaler TM. (1981). Bone fluoride concentrations after 16 years of drinking water fluoridation. Caries Research 15(1):85-9.

Jackson D, Weidman SM. (1958). Fluorine in human bone related to age and the water supply of different regions. Journal of Pathological Bacteriology 76: 451-459.

Kuo HC, Stamm JW. (1974). Fluoride levels in human rib bone: a preliminary study. Canadian Journal of Public Health 65(5):359-61.

National Research Council. (2006). Pharmacokinetics of Fluoride. In: Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA's Standards. National Academies Press, Washington D.C. (See chapter)

Ng AHM, et al. (2004). Association between fluoride, magnesium, aluminum and bone quality in renal osteodystrophy. Bone 34: 216-224.

Parkins FM, et al. (1974). Relationships of human plasma fluoride and bone fluoride to age. Calcified Tissue Research 16: 335-338.

Richards A, et al. (1994). Normal age-related changes in fluoride content of vertebral trabecular bone - Relation to bone quality. Bone 15: 21-26.

Smith FA, et al. (1953). Age increase and fluoride content in human bone. (abstract). Federation Proceedings 12: 368.

Stein ID, Granik G. (1980). Human vertebral bone: Relation of strength, porosity, and mineralization to fluoride content. Calcified Tissue International 32: 189-194.

Sogaard CH, et al. (1994). Marked decrease in trabecular bone quality after five years of sodium fluoride therapy--assessed by biomechanical testing of iliac crest bone biopsies in osteoporotic patients. Bone 15(4): 393-99.

Wix P, Mohamedally SM. (1980). The significance of age-dependent fluoride accumulation in bone in relation to daily intake of fluoride. Fluoride 13: 100-104.

Zipkin L, et al. (1958). Fluoride deposition in human bones after prolonged ingestion of fluoride in drinking water. US Public Health Reports 73:732-740.



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by MagnumOpus
reply to post by kokoro
 


ISBN 0-913571-03-2 pp 47-57


Afraid not on this one though, books by quacks, not evidence..

FYI, he also coauthored a book claiming HIV doesn't cause AIDS, nuff said. Prefer peer reviewed journals.



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