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"Those who know... don't speak. Those who speak... don't know."

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posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by Unity_99
 


Yin/Yang

Listening/Speaking

Perfect speech is when everything is said with a simple point of the finger.

Our most lasting "speeches" on others are given when we don't know they are watching our actions, and see something that inspires or reaches them. The best speeches are less about the words, and more about the behavior. Identical words from another carry an entirely different impact.

Infinite Layers/Densities/etc. Agreed. There are also layers of "speech".

We are using one form now to listen/speak due to our current environment, but it is a crutch for a current challenge.

The real crux gets down to realizing that when we speak, we are speaking to ourselves, so we can listen to what we have said *and* the echo.

The more detailed the description, the more lost the true message gets, the more the map becomes confused with the land. I am contributing to the confusion currently and counter-fitting the message entirely.

What to do... what to do.


I don't actually disagree with you, but I do wish to point to a "higher" form of "speech" which is almost entirely listening when viewed from our standard perspectives right now. Like using a finger to point to a moon. May we cease staring at the finger, see the moon, and no longer need the finger.
edit on 2012/1/17 by ErgoTheConfusion because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 09:39 AM
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Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion
There are many ways to take this concept from the Tao Te Ching.

I am here to offer one.

Those who know... listen. Those who don't listen... don't know.

Imagine you are the exact (aka "perfect") center of a circle. No matter how much the circle may rotate, you do not. No matter where the circle moves, relative to the circle you have not moved. There is nothing for the center to do but listen to the "changes" of the rest of "itself".

If the center only listens to part of the circle, it will only understand part of itself.


Interesting interpretation. But if I may...

If we are in the center of the perfect circle and stationary, while the circle continually revolves around us, we may only see a small portion of the arc at any one time but because it is in continuous motion, we will eventually witness all of it.

"Those who know... don't speak. Those who speak... don't know."

I think this was actually a little more grounded than that. It seems (to me) to be an observation related to other old sayings that compare babbling brooks to silent, deeper waters.



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by redoubt
 

No disagreement.
As said in the opening...


There are many ways to take this concept from the Tao Te Ching.
I am here to offer one.



Originally posted by Unity_99
If your a predator, a dog eat dog war general or elitist leader, with basic greed and ego distortions you will meet up with even bigger pedators. They will pretend to be angels of light and basically aid you in enforcing a rule of cruelty and comparmentalization and hidden knowledge, and elitism, of course, for everyone's good. You're doing this for their own good, and if you just put a few clues out, the very worthy will succeed to wake up.


These beings bat their long elfin eyelashes "come hither o ye tasty snack. Oops I meant to say, you highly admirable/worthy seeker!

When you know the truth you speak it. You shake cages, or trees. You don't care if it makes you unpopular, in the least, you just keep seeking within for the way each day, and how to be more effective. You report for duty. The prime directive is to free this planet.


Any being which chooses to experience a physical existence is a Predator until it becomes Prey. This is true of all animals. All plants. It is even true of minerals. Planets. The Sun is a predator of itself (perfect example of Unity while having the illusion of division). The galaxy is a Predator.

Predator/Prey relationship is only "good or bad" from an individual vantage point viewing things from division.

Donning my entirely human hat: You speak of Unity constantly, yet every word you actually offer is about division and one side "defeating" the other. Nobody is free so long as somebody is trying to "remove" another.

The largest predator this planet has ever seen is about to die. Just like when a whale falls to the bottom of the ocean and provides an insane boon to the creatures living there. The whale had to consume unthinkable quantities of "prey" to reach this size, to be capable of providing the bounty.

The story of the man who loses his horses. The neighbors say "how terrible". He says "maybe". The horses return with more horses. The neighbors say "How wonderful!". He says "maybe". His son is injured trying to tame one of the new horses. The neighbors say "How terrible". He says "maybe". The military comes to town and takes all able bodied men to war, his son is left behind due to the injury. The neighbors say "How wonderful!". He says "maybe". Dot dot dot.

Brahman is the Federal Reserve. Brahman is the "devil batting her sultry eyelash". Brahman is the experience of eating a juicy fruit. Brahman is the sensation of a gazelle having its neck broken by a lion.

The lion... if it wished to eradicate the gazelle... would secure its death. The gazelle... if it wished to eradicate the lion... would secure its death.

If you believe there is a top to a triangle and a bottom, when the triangle rotates you will suddenly find yourself at the bottom and fear and try to fight it. If you realize you are the triangle, with multiple parts all sharing in being the top, bottom, and sides, you can now how fun rolling wherever you like.

Putting the non-only-human hat back on: Why do you feel your cage rattling isn't a predatory activity? Does it not have as the goal the death of something? This death is not something I consider a negative, but I also don't consider the birth of it a negative... everything can/will be useful for our growth if we make it so.

Namaste.
edit on 2012/1/17 by ErgoTheConfusion because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 10:04 AM
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reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion
 


Thank You.



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 07:58 PM
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reply to post by angrysniper
 


/bow

I've enjoyed your thoughts and contemplation in other threads, btw.



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion
reply to post by redoubt
 

No disagreement.
As said in the opening...


There are many ways to take this concept from the Tao Te Ching.
I am here to offer one.



Originally posted by Unity_99
If your a predator, a dog eat dog war general or elitist leader, with basic greed and ego distortions you will meet up with even bigger pedators. They will pretend to be angels of light and basically aid you in enforcing a rule of cruelty and comparmentalization and hidden knowledge, and elitism, of course, for everyone's good. You're doing this for their own good, and if you just put a few clues out, the very worthy will succeed to wake up.


These beings bat their long elfin eyelashes "come hither o ye tasty snack. Oops I meant to say, you highly admirable/worthy seeker!

When you know the truth you speak it. You shake cages, or trees. You don't care if it makes you unpopular, in the least, you just keep seeking within for the way each day, and how to be more effective. You report for duty. The prime directive is to free this planet.


Any being which chooses to experience a physical existence is a Predator until it becomes Prey. This is true of all animals. All plants. It is even true of minerals. Planets. The Sun is a predator of itself (perfect example of Unity while having the illusion of division). The galaxy is a Predator.

Predator/Prey relationship is only "good or bad" from an individual vantage point viewing things from division.

Donning my entirely human hat: You speak of Unity constantly, yet every word you actually offer is about division and one side "defeating" the other. Nobody is free so long as somebody is trying to "remove" another.

The largest predator this planet has ever seen is about to die. Just like when a whale falls to the bottom of the ocean and provides an insane boon to the creatures living there. The whale had to consume unthinkable quantities of "prey" to reach this size, to be capable of providing the bounty.

The story of the man who loses his horses. The neighbors say "how terrible". He says "maybe". The horses return with more horses. The neighbors say "How wonderful!". He says "maybe". His son is injured trying to tame one of the new horses. The neighbors say "How terrible". He says "maybe". The military comes to town and takes all able bodied men to war, his son is left behind due to the injury. The neighbors say "How wonderful!". He says "maybe". Dot dot dot.

Brahman is the Federal Reserve. Brahman is the "devil batting her sultry eyelash". Brahman is the experience of eating a juicy fruit. Brahman is the sensation of a gazelle having its neck broken by a lion.

The lion... if it wished to eradicate the gazelle... would secure its death. The gazelle... if it wished to eradicate the lion... would secure its death.

If you believe there is a top to a triangle and a bottom, when the triangle rotates you will suddenly find yourself at the bottom and fear and try to fight it. If you realize you are the triangle, with multiple parts all sharing in being the top, bottom, and sides, you can now how fun rolling wherever you like.

Putting the non-only-human hat back on: Why do you feel your cage rattling isn't a predatory activity? Does it not have as the goal the death of something? This death is not something I consider a negative, but I also don't consider the birth of it a negative... everything can/will be useful for our growth if we make it so.

Namaste.
edit on 2012/1/17 by ErgoTheConfusion because: (no reason given)


What a great post! Maybe...



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by Subconsciously Correct
 




I actually meditated on the idea of this thread because I found it very interesting. Duality exists to create the illusion, or so I believe.

For example: my supervisor in our department of social services was a probation officer for 15 years (main focus was with sex offenders). If there were no sex offenders, who is to say she would have the means necessary to put food on the table for her family? One could say that these sex offenders and other inmates helped her gain the monetary needs to raise her wonderful daughter. One could also say those sex offenders/inmates helped her develop great strength and interpersonal skills due to the rigors of working such a job.

Now, I do not personally condone being a sex offender at all, but without them and other people who have committed what our law enforcement would consider serious crimes, several people who have jobs in that field would have to find other means of employment.

I guess the point of my example is that everything is bound together in this sort of entanglement and can create positive or negative results. The results are infinite/endless. To me, the only thing that one can control in this world is their true thoughts/feelings, how they treat others, and how they react to things in their environment. That is the one thing that no one else can take unless you let them. That, to me at least, is what is meant when you hear the common phrase "see past the illusion."



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 10:23 AM
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Those who know... don't speak. Those who speak... don't know.

Speaking, language, words, are abstractions, mind stuff. The silent mind does not speak. When the mind is silent one knows.



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 11:26 AM
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Knowing is pure awareness. Speaking is naming things.
Can you tell the difference?
youtu.be...



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 12:13 PM
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From The Gospel of Thomas:
You are the light of the world.
A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.
Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.
Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.

I agree with this. If we have glimmers of the Truth and Light we must bring them to the tangible scene for others to hear, read, see. We have to give what we are given.

there is a stance beyond the adage "those who know don't speak"--- The one who knows certainly can speak of the knowing and should. After all, LaoTse used words to make that statement. And, as others here noted, the Truth is not just one statement, it includes the Whole, The Totality of All that is, which sometimes seems to present the human with dichotomy but really from the higher view, all dichotomy and paradox clears up and seen from Wholeness and no longer paradox or dichotomy.

More nearly, it seems that the one who knows is watchful or careful to whom he sings his song. "I give my secrets to those who are worthy of my secrets." said the Christ Light.

Lao Tse also says "In God (Tao) conflicts are satisfied; differences resolved; observations clarified; disturbances quieted." And it is true, they are, when we see from the higher view of Totality and All Inclusive Awareness.

We must share with others, and not keep the Light of Truth hidden from our world. If we get a clear vision of Reality, of the Truth, then It is so important to tell others of our vision, especially now. As you and I give what we have seen, then those who 'hear' will become 'givers' also. The Truth brings a deep sense of inner peace and relief, and that is very healing, so we have to give, if we can find the words to do so, we have to this healing Light that comes through, and then It grows, or spreads, as we each open up, then others see too, and then they give in what way they can.

My favorite teacher of all time: www.williamsamuel.com

He really helped me to understand there is a Divine Equation wherein we open our Heart to receive from Godhead/All and then more Glimmers of Truth flow to us as we give those Glimmers to others. Kind of like opening the dam, so the flow can go through us, not be held onto, but let go of. "The final discipline involves the correct apprehension of Idenity and passing that clear perception along to our world as quickly as we can."

Good thread, good points made. Thanks, Sandy



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 02:22 PM
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Every human interaction represents, at some level, an oppportunity, to either learn or to teach, or both. Someone must speak and another listen, but may the one who speaks speak wisdom and understanding and may the one who listens, listen with an open and a curious mind anxious for new understanding, information and insights. The problem arises when the person of ignorance forces the person of wisdom to continually listen to him prattle on and on about everything he thinks he already knows, blowing the opportunity for an increase of human understanding and comprehension.



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by Sweetmystery
 

Here here! or should I say "hear hear!". Very good. What you said.



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 04:10 PM
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u r confusing subject and object while this is the evil way that kill ur right to be true

knowledge is always the wrong one, the right one is the most free constant one which is necessary out of all he knows, the fact of knowing make the true become the subject free out of realizing its knowledge, then out of it becoming also free from the result of what he realized, there he can stand fresh constant free so true one

the logic of truth u dont seem being recognizing, is what freedom is one absolute fact, but any move free involve conscious to new absolute fact one but then always there is a plus free conscious result that must be more true one freedom then the absolute fact involved inn perspective of the size of all freedom fact, since it becomes more concerned about absolute positive one freedom fact, so the conscious free plus would have to invent utility plus to all which makes it become real first, all that lead to truth as freedom absolute superiority always sense, till the concept of absolute realities right led to perfect conception result of conscious realizations

all that is to prove how who knows is not the one, bc the fact of knwing is saying that u r not the absolute freedom of knowledge, u must then give ur knowledge away all for what it belongs to in the right conception of truth in order to mean being true

so who knows means being not true, as if it was possible to be not true when truth exist

even evil ones they wont mean knowledge as a stand, they would mean being negative for constant stand in comparaison to true stand that is always free positive source more, or they would mean stand being inferior to never mean the concept superiority that truth is always realizing through absolute right freedom one

but meaning a stand out of knowledge is evil living means that evil livings oness dont do really

so preaching silence bc u know is all what it confirm

now speaking is an objective issue not one, so it can b right and wrong it depends on one subjects

speaking is wrong when it is done as a way to b a stand constant, when the constant must b the most true free fact one so always real in positive source active to relate different perspective in one reality freedom

but speaking is right when it means objective free communications of different ones existence, so speaking is right in objective free dimension that confirm true existence while it gives indirectly a living sense to truth in absolute freedom sense



posted on Jan, 19 2012 @ 01:16 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 

I would like to correct an error I think I made in that post above.



"Seek first to understand, and THEN to be understood."

~ Stephen Covey, from "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People"


Yes, some lights are brighter than others, and some truths and insights greater than another, and there is wisdom relative to which ignorance has nowhere to hide, BUT, each person's own point of view and understanding is VALID for them, where they are at, on their own journey, and their communication, for the most part, is VALUABLE, and ought to be acknowledged. The one who is already wise doesn't need to prove himself, nor INJECT his wisdom into another, no, instead, he is the space of listening for another, and in his sharing of their burdens, sorrows, concerns, his listening creates the space, not only for their own spiritual/psychological growth and well being/healing, but also for their own listening, when it comes time for him to speak his wisdom and truth. Our listening to the other creates the space for their hearing of US, when it's our turn to do the speaking.

I was in error, to accuse the ignorant of forcing the wise to listen to their nonsense, because it's not nonsense at all for them, and their communication of that which they understand, or with which they may be struggling, is of immense value and importance.

There's a saying in NLP (the multidisciplinary "science" of communication called neurolinguistic programming) and that is this.

"We are all doing our best with the resources that are available to us."

I have faith in people and they all deserve the benefit of the doubt and the space of listening in non-judgement, and unconditional love.

"Seek first to understand and then to be understood." (now that's a very wise principal of effective human interpersonal communications)

Best Regards,

NAM



At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike."
~ Mathew 11:25



edit on 19-1-2012 by NewAgeMan because: final final edit



posted on Jan, 19 2012 @ 01:50 PM
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Thank you to everyone for the continued discussion. It is very enjoyable to me to hear and meditate upon the different perspectives.

The only thing I have to add is that the most important aspect of the original post (that even I didn't fully appreciate at first), was to specifically offer an interpretation of the phrase from the Tao Te Ching that removes the stigma upon speaking... but still aims at the heart of the original message.

Speaking is unavoidable. However just as a lamp does not *try* to cast its light... if our speech is an effort... we are not casting a genuine light. Our light will show whether we try to or not, for all we are really doing is becoming a channel for the fundamental "light/truth" coming from within. Much like how the threads of a fiber optic lamp are merely channels for the light bulb below.

Our written/spoken speech is inherently always going to be a "coloring" of the source light we are attempting to express. The color is part of the interestingness of Samsara/Maya/Illusion/The Matrix, but it can be confused for the source.

Unspoken behavior has fewer filterings of the source message/understanding. Genuine understanding has no filter and is "pure" (thus the lack of need for any speech or expression at all).

Pure of course does not mean "Good Upright Christian Folk from 1950". Pure simply means true, honest, real. A person (aka vantage point of observation for Tao/Infinity/God) may need/want to pass through "pure anger" to reach "pure peace".
edit on 2012/1/19 by ErgoTheConfusion because: www.youtube.com...



posted on Jan, 19 2012 @ 01:54 PM
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reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion
 


Those that know dont have the words to tell
And the ones with the words dont know so well...



posted on Jan, 19 2012 @ 01:59 PM
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Here is the truth that I've discovered that I would like to share.

The truth and the reality as it really and truly is, and the wisdom it imparts of its own accord, is generally upside down to that which almost everyone, especially those who think themselves wise and clever, myself included, assumes to be true and accepts as "the way things are".

Therefore, if you wish to render the so-called "power" of the so-called "PTB" void, after examining it's fruit (and the data on that, is IN now), turn everything upside down, and stand, and walk, talk, and relate (and listen) to others and the world around you, based solely on what is true and real, and right (righteousness), and prepare to recieve your reward, which is stored up in heaven (where the heart is), such that no thief can break in and steal, nor woodworm (corruption, entropy) destroy, and be prepared to be astonished, as the real treasure (everything of value and substance) flies out of "their" secret chambers, leaving only the lies behind, while that which is of incalculable value is redistributed to the poor, the downtrodden aka the little guy, in the twinkling of an eye.

Best Regards,

Robinhood



posted on Jan, 19 2012 @ 03:05 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 



Hi Newageman,

Thanks for your kind reply. And wise words too!

It seems to me that all the great avatars and saints and seers tried to put what they
"saw" into words for us so that we might find the Truth for ourself.

No one can give us the Truth, and it is very difficult to put those Genuine Insights and Heart Felt Knowing into words. I think it is good to try. It does not matter if anyone hears us or even cares, its just that the Light cannot be held from being expressed, its only natural to try to express outwardly what we 'see' inwardly. Self wants to give of Its Self, that is how Life is, it just keeps pouring forth and giving and flowing outward from the Source.

We have all seen how the Inner Light leads us to the right books or words or teachers, those who can put into words the things we already know unconsciously and have not been able to access in a linear intellectual way. "We just know things" when we 'see' them. Like they call it that "aha moment".

I think it is as for all of us, the Truth, those bright flashes of Light of Knowing, they come in so many ways, and it seems to come in fleeting glimpses, hardly able to capture them, but somehow, in the long run they painting a big picture for us.

As I say, I had a really wonderful teacher in my life, and I feel very fortunate, so I always want to mention him.

Here is something he said that I have always loved for its pure Truth:

"Every teacher, book, writer, practitioner, sage, guru or peanut vendor, by whatever name, title or label they go by, is an aspect of the Awareness (Identity) "we" are. We take the book from the shelf most likely to render a specific service at a given moment. Exactly so, we have appeared to go to the philosophy, teacher, church, friend, stranger or peanut vendor that has unfolded as sufficient for the moment--but that philosophy, teacher, church, friend or stranger is WITHIN the awareness WE are. So is the peanut vendor. We are forever looking at our Self.".....William Samuel www.williamsamuel.com

The world would have missed out on a lot if these wise men, including Lao Tse and Jesus and Buddha and so many, many others. Even all the people here at ATS who help uncover the lies that have been perpetrated on us for thousands of years; anyone speaking up with the Truth is a good thing.

If you have glimmers of Truth that come to you, you never know who might hear one little thing you say that lifts them up and changes them for the better and helps them--- even if you think you said it very poorly or stumbled along trying to put those inexplicable visions into words, someone might hear or see because of your courage to speak up.

And yes, I like to mention William Samuel around here, when I get a chance, as I really think he has found the words that give honest answers that are usable and real and livable and healing. He leads us back to our own Self where we find there is an Inner Guidance system, a Divine compass that allows us a stability and peace and understanding so we won't be thrown off by the crazy, swiftly moving times we are in.

If we find the Light, then then we can be of help to others, if we are called to do so.



edit on 19-1-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by Sweetmystery
 

Excellent! Yes, "education" of the best kind, is like rediscovering for ourselves something we already "knew" at some level. It's like finding buried treasure, and if THE buried treasure of the ages, if wise we'll immediately rebury it, go off and buy up the WHOLE FIELD!
(I just love the way Jesus put things, and I can almost always detect the mirth in it now, where before it was just dead "scripture")

"The kingdom of heaven is like a storekeeper, who brings forth from his storehouse of treasure both something old and something new."

I do wish however that those who are chiming in with their little one liners to shut up, would just shut up. In other words, if you have nothing of value or substance to contribute, then why add anything at all?



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 05:45 AM
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you reveal more clearly how u confuse speaking with giving insights knowledge about everything, sorry but this prove my point, speaking has nothing to do with truth, it is an individual expression which by definition has no relation with everything nor with all, but sure speaking involve the objective sight existence like being knowing that u r not alone so the concept of absolute else, which again confirm how speaking has no relation at all with everything not even urself since else is all what is not u at all



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