Warmonger Thread

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

This "field" of yours explains in no way what-so-ever how it is my call for respect for individual rights, and for disarming our own nuclear arsenal is "laughable" and "uneducated"

Further, if you are so good at preventing wars then why is it that the United States has been engaged in so many goddamned - albeit unofficially so - wars? It sure would be nice if you could have prevented that most imprudent "war on drugs" and most recently this outrageous "war on terror" that has had the effect of a blatant war on the American people.

You may be in the "field" of preventing war, but the wars that really matter you don't seem to be very good at preventing. Oh well, keep on laughing at others because they don't get how your job of ineffectively preventing wars that really matter makes you better educated.

edit on 18-1-2012 by Jean Paul Zodeaux because: (no reason given)

You easily make statements that condem this action or that action but you have provided no programs or ideas or logic on how to solve problems....and even if you did...since you do not have the ability to get intell on the ground or as it is happening...your concepts or ideas would be flawed to begin with.

We are currently dealing with a regime...IRAN...that is run by 80 somethings and have elected by stufed ballot boxes s well as outright fraud...thie little nutjob of a mouth piece. Iran is providing huge quantities of SHAPED CHARGED IED'S to both IRAQ and Taliban insurgents so they are in a actual state of WAR WITH THE U.S. They have also broken the rules of the NPT...and have kicked out Nuclear Inspectors...they are building a Nuclear Bomb as there is no othr possible reason for building thousands of cetrifuges...they have build secret underground Nuclear Facilities that the U.S. knows about confronted Iran and Iran has admitted to having...they have done the most STUPID THING POSSIBLE...they have threatened to Militarily close down the STRAIT where the majority of the worlds oil supply is shipped through including IRANS.

The Iranian youth which is Pro-Democracy is only one or two years from ousting the current leadership....which makes it important for any U.S. Military action to be precise and not harm these people...as well as IRAN has shown it's ability to have no problem with killing it's own people which is why the U.S. has GROUNDED ISRAEL because if we hadn't made it clear that Israel is not allowed to attack...Israel would have done so already.

Best possibe scenario...Russia and China warn off IRAN and Iran allows Nuclear inspectors back in as well as removes their archaic Navy from the Strait. Iran becomes democratic and becomes a prosperous modern nation.

Worste case scenario...Iran either tries to block the shipping lanes or worse...DEECLARES PUBLICLY whether true or not...it has developed a Nuclear Bomb. The U.S. would force Israel to sit this one out...destroy the entite Iranian Navy and Airforce as well as Costal Military bases....Large numberof U.S. Special Forces and Airborne would drop in to secure ALL Iranian Nuclear sites...and we know where they all are....and in an attempt to prevent massive loss of Iranian Life....Non-Nuclear EMP devises would be used to render Entire Iranian Army Divisions innert to prevent an attack on thousands of U.S. Special forces securing Iranian Nuclear sites. Should Iran refuse to surrender...and this would be unfortunate...the U.S. would have to destroy or kill any Mass Soldier Groups that would try to attack U.S. Special forces without using now unusable Iranian Tanks, Transports...etc....anything that uses electronics. So Carrier based Arcraft would be called in for airstrikes as well as possible use of B-52's and other OVERKILL CRAFT. U.S. has promised to protect Russian Gas Piplines as well as Chinese Energy supplies in this event and all support for IRAN by these countries went out the door when IRAN threatened shipping of OIL Supplies to the world. After THAT statement...Russia and China abandoned them. Split Infinity

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by sonnny1

 

That being said, their are active and inactive Marines,and those in the Armed Forces who have been "oath-keepers" and those have the exact same thinking as you do Jean.

I sometimes get carried away with my own prose. I never meant to imply that such Marines did not exist, what I was attempting to do was encourage seabag to be one of them. His retirement from the Corps notwithstanding. I did not throw honor in seabags face because I thought he had no regard for honor. Quite the contrary, I expect seabag to be honorable and would never be surprised to discover he is.

I know how passionate you feel about Nuclear disarmament. I would love to see the World without Nuclear,in General. Its unfortunate that the side we maybe on,is the one that "seems" like its an aggressor,and at times,has been. Unfortunately,Iran should not be seeking Nuclear,if it is to build the Bomb.I have stated many times that "peaceful purposes" doesn't equate to peace( NK). I also believe a Nuclear Regime,under a theocratic Nation,is very scary. When prophetic doctrine,mixed in with prophecy,can usher in the nightmare many believe might happen.

That being said,I wouldnt be to hard on Seabag. I know many that have yet to define their Patriotism,and the clouded storm of Nationalism,in the present day, of evil under every rock.

I dont know how to stop Iran from making a bomb. I do know disarmament of our own is a good first step. I also believe that Iran,has peaceful people,that dont want this to happen also.Time will tell.

reply to post by Kokatsi


Imagine if the middle east is the focal point for eastern and western powers into a world crisis,

then solution by consolidation followed by global reform. A global threat that instead of provoking death and desolation, causes us to unite.

If in the society games, if the pawn actually chooses his by virtue of truth and honor not to destroy. If the pawn is not fooled. The guy that makes the call. If he walks away with his purpose intact. His destiny over riding his fate.

If the person we are to the world makes the right call, we can find hope and purpose in being that person in our own lives. Hopefully down the chain enough of us are here that at least one of us will make the right call about sending war over there.

reply to post by aorAki

This is relevant to the OP at it helps us gain an important insight to the psychological reinforcement and training behind your statements, just as I am proud to say I'm a Pacifist and have never killed anyone, am a vegetarian, happily married (with a mortgage : ugh a similarity!) and strive for a world where war is no longer de rigeur; where nations with weapons of mass destruction are given peaceful incentives to disestablish them, where freedom and peace are concepts to be cherished, not just bandied around as catch words with no intent on acting upon them; where nations are helped rather than hurt and where we are ALL recognised as the having the same basic needs which are looked after appropriately and fairly throughout the world, and where the vast monies of the Military-Industrial Complex are redistributed into peaceful and cooperative endeavours rather than myriad ways of death.

…and there’s a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow. You must be skeptical, idealistic and sheltered, because unfortunately the world you describe has never and will never exist.

Yes, I'm an idealist and have dreams and am unashamed to say this. At least my dreams are for the common good, rather than for death and destruction. I don't care if others are 'bad' and thus that supposedly gives us a right to be bad to them. That isn't constructive and just prolongs and propagates ill feeling.

I aspire to live in the same world you’ve described. I just realize that sometimes you have to kill people and break things to get as close to that as possible. The ideal world doesn’t exist.

Call me a 'Hippie". I'll own it. Call me a 'pansy tree hugger', that's fine. Just don't try to call me up for war because you'll never get me there. I am not weak. In fact, I consider this makes me stronger than those who don't resist the urge to kill.

You passive, pansy, tree hugging, HIPPIE!!

So, that's some of where my position is, and where I'm coming from. I also look to history (in despair, for we never seem to learn, or never seem to recognise the signs and connections) and I look to my heart.
I don't look to god.

I hear you. I appreciate the debate.

reply to post by sonnny1

You are very right about one thing...the VAST MAJORITY of Iranians are tired of WAR as they lost many people during the Iran/Iraq war as well as they are tired of their leadership being confrontational to the United States as there is no benifit in it.

The Iranian youth were severly brutilized after the last major Pro-Democracy Protests and are VERY close to relacing their Old Guard Religious Regime with a Democratic Form of Goverment...2 years tops. Unfortunately...as this regime sees it's grasp on power slipping from their hands...they become more and more dangerous.

They are trying to build a bomb...they are killing their own people....but they placed themselves ina orner with the WE WILL CLOSE THE STRAIT WITH OUR NAVY AND PREVENT OIL SHIPMENTS TO THE WORLD! THIS was the statement that lost them all and any suport from Russia or China....and put them on a collision course with the U.S.

Everyone knows that saying these words is like inviting the United States to Invade your country....everyone it seems except the Iranians. You can call the U.S. Warmongers but lets take a look at what would happen if IRAN actually did this and the U.S. was not around to stop it...let's say there was no Israel or U.S. and Iran chose to Blackmail the Arab states around it as history has shown that it has done in the past.

Then the job would go to Russia or China who are not as capable to deal with an issue of this magnitude without killing vast amounts of ordinary people.

With any luck...Iran will back down and the U.S. will not have to do anything. Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by sonnny1

 

With any luck...Iran will back down and the U.S. will not have to do anything. Split Infinity

Hopefully the NATO/UN/ USA/ Banks will conform to leaving them alone, no matter the rally call to war if nothing happens. Like now, nothing happens.

I mean if an alternative to the Dollar/ Euro supremacy could be tolerated. If in the name of human progress, what could be African and South American currency was allowed to exist.

I mean by exist, let be competitively without subversion so as to promote the growth of global wealth, thus relieving the tensions between class and culture.

Thus de-arming an ever increasing stock pile of weapons in all hands, which inevitably must be used. Unless the reason for their creation is diffused honestly and sincerely, we will never "solve" the problem, war or no war there ,now, or ever.

reply to post by SplitInfinity

You are very right about one thing...the VAST MAJORITY of Iranians are tired of WAR as they lost many people during the Iran/Iraq war as well as they are tired of their leadership being confrontational to the United States as there is no benifit in it.

I hope/pray not only that you are correct but also that they can change things so our PTB don’t destroy their PTB before the Iranian people do.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

I am demeaning your arguments and have no idea of your "service". I do know you are way too slow to acknowledge the existence of unalienable rights and this coupled with your pulling out your service as some kind of trump card doesn't help your arguments.

I didn’t bring up my service…you did when you said.

Do not expect anyone to treat you as if you are a man of courage and honor simply because you wear an American military uniform.

Most importantly, I have several times over in this thread answered your question, you keep ignoring it. For the umpteenth time: No nation should have nuclear weapons.

GREAT. I GOT IT! So how does does a nuclear Iran help further your desire for a nuclear free world?? You’re not willing to prevent MORE nuclear countries until the US DISARMS? WTF? That just means you want to teach the US a lesson by letting Iran arm up!!

I would suggest to you that the Marines are far more important to American military might than any cache of radioactive bombs. I would further suggest that a Marine Corps filled with honorable warriors who have the courage of conviction to disobey unlawful orders is the apex of military might. That Marine Corps, that I just described, is a powerful Marine Corps. A Marine Corps filled with soldiers who call Americans weak and passive simply because they want to see an end to nuclear weapons has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. That Marine Corps necessarily defines its might by the bombs others will drop. The Marine Corps I describe necessarily defines the epitome of the honorable warrior.

Anyone who subscribes to a nuclear Iran is sick IMO! You don’t put nukes in the hands of terrorists. And if you disagree that Iran promotes terrorists then you are being intellectually dishonest. They admit their support for Hamas et al.

Originally posted by seabag

Anyone who subscribes to a nuclear Iran is sick IMO! You don’t put nukes in the hands of terrorists. And if you disagree that Iran promotes terrorists then you are being intellectually dishonest. They admit their support for Hamas et al.

I don't support their having nukes any more than I support anyone else having nukes.
However, they are not the only ones who support and promote terrorists, or who actively use terror. There are nuclear states that indeed do just this. So, where do we go from here, seeing as this is a sort of impasse.

Yours, the tree-hugging pansy Hippie

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

You are very right about one thing...the VAST MAJORITY of Iranians are tired of WAR as they lost many people during the Iran/Iraq war as well as they are tired of their leadership being confrontational to the United States as there is no benifit in it.

I hope/pray not only that you are correct but also that they can change things so our PTB don’t destroy their PTB before they do.

The United States has kept a massive Nuclear deterent until just recently as it has agreed to disarmemnt with Russia to levels so low that many in Congress were screaming Bloody Murder! But there is a reason for this as lowering the number of ICBMS is a tactic in the U.S.'s favor. The less number of ICBM's means a lower number of targets to intercept. The U.S. would never do this unless it had a viable system of destroying these Nuclear Weapons.
Split Infinity

We have trade sanctions on Iran?

and then they are mad at US for many things, so for their move to try to get revenge, or to show they mean business, they wish to block their strait of hurmuz?

and then US is like,, well no no no you cant do that?

The iranian government are trying to "win" over the us, be it bragging rights or whatever, and the us is locked in this play as well they don't want to "lose".

is this just leaders of countries trying to make dents in egos and pockets or something?


is there any way an arena can be built and any individual who believes in living in war may go to battle?,
maybe that is what this earth is?( at least for the lower life forms who lack intelligence) there is duality, order/chaos, peace is possible... when someone says that something is ideal, that is really not a good point for their argument.. because ideals are possible... everything of value, tangible items or systems, that man has ever created for the good of man and progression of the human species are ideal... the community you live in with furnished homes, supermarkets and stores... is that not ideal?
is the most natural life a man can imagine, living in the nature that made him, say on a farm with a family, with means of producing food, working in the sun, breathing clean air.. that is ideal


yes the natural way on this planet is filled with aggression and war.. but what humans have made of this pure and natural world, surrounding it with war ships and missiles and electron lasers, its just funning funny, squandered all precious gifts,


to those in the army, you dont hope that one day the world will live in peace, because you dont think it is possible, there for it is not, this multiplied by the number of nations who follow your lead, of living in fear and conflict, and that ideal reality has and will slip further and further..

you would wish for the next thousand years on this planet for there to be more and more innovation of weapons, more and more submarines, and tankers, and stuff that blows sh*t up, because a normal life as a human is just boring, millions of years of evolution to turn you into a fierce fit killing machine and now you have to behave, what a hell for you, if you cant have peace, noone should be able to.. im sorry but i have to assume this is the thought of men in power of armies, there is no other logical reason the world is in this state, besides misunderstanding, fear ( which leads to evil and corruption) and some form of hatred or jealousy,...

I hope your technologies advance, so the armies of the world one day may be sent to the moon, where they can nuke it out, to really show everyone once and for all, who is the strongest and most intelligent, because thats what its really about, the need to prove to others how badass you are.

I think the whole argument of Iran having nukes is null and void when considering there is actually an economic reason behind this war,

not a "moral" or "defense" thing about it. I think this thread explains why in perfect detail.


www.abovetopsecret.com...

this is just one front in a series of Western/ Eastern powers trying to take control of the worlds wealth/ power.

Iran's nuclear program is an ambitious dash for control over the energy market. Not a fanatic dash for total anialtion. They are not dumb. I side with this view.

We should combat this with our intellect, wit and cunning rather than with our might and strength. It's a win/ win scenario for both. We all prosper and grow as a species, instead of becoming stagnant as a society stuck in a loop of perpetual war.

reply to post by aorAki


Where do we go from here? Let’s start by defining terrorism.

systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve some goal

link

Iran is a terrorist nation. When you train children to commit suicide bombings then you’re a terrorist nation. America has never sent suicide bombers into Iran. America has never used violence against Iran to intimidate them (though covert action has been done by BOTH sides. I know first-hand that Iranian fighters were in Iraq fighting US troops and I speculate the US is behind the killing of Iranian scientists….and others).

When you fund Hamas, who shoots hundreds of rockets per week into a country that has never attacked Iran, you’re a terrorist nation. Iran is responsible for many sinister actions against the west, such as:

- Observers say Iran had prior knowledge of Hezbollah attacks, such as the 1988 kidnapping and murder of Colonel William Higgins, a U.S. Marine involved in a UN observer mission in Lebanon, and the 1992 and 1994 bombings of Jewish cultural institutions in Argentina.

- Iran still has a price on the head of the Indian-born British novelist Salman Rushdie for what Iranian leaders call blasphemous writings about Islam in his 1989 novel The Satanic Verses.

- U.S. officials say Iran supported the group behind the 1996 truck bombing of Khobar Towers, a U.S. military residence in Saudi Arabia, which killed nineteen U.S. servicemen.

- Military officials say numerous attacks since 2001 on U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan, and coalition forces in Iraq, have been attributed to Iranian-made weapons.

- A set of classified documents leaked by the website WikiLeaks.org in July 2010 reports extensive collaboration between Iran and the Taliban, Afghan warlords, and al-Qaeda, but all the claims have not been corroborated (Guardian).

- Iran has also been blamed for attacks in Balochistan in Pakistan.

- In April 2011, the United States and the European Union accused the Quds Force of providing equipment and support to help the Syrian regime suppress revolts in Syria.

- In October 2011, Washington accused the Quds Force of plotting to assassinate the Saudi ambassador (NYT) to the United States, and plotting to bomb the Israeli Embassy in Washington and the Saudi and Israeli Embassies in Argentina.

link

America, with all its problems, is not a terrorist nation. But IRAN most certainly IS. So should Iran have nukes??

reply to post by ImaFungi

You have to remember that the United States after WWI was an ISOLATIONIST country. The population was dead set against ever again sending U.S. Soldiers overseas to fight another WAR. We were dragged into war by the attack on Pearl Harbor.

The U.S. went again into another World War and came out of that was a Super Power. After we were facing a theat from the then Soviet Union which was gobbling up contries like candy and Built a Wall around Berlin and seperated Germany for decades. The Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia and had plans to invade the Middle East as a way to control the Oil as well as have a Warm Weather port for their navy.

Anyone who doubs the Soviet relove just has to ask anyone from a country that was behind the Iron Curtain. So now the U.S. is at it's current state...still fixing other peoples messes. Split Infinity

Honestly sea bag, I respect your opinion but

Terrorist smerrorist,
This isn't about the sudden concern for nuclear proliferation. We have recently seen the rise of mercenary armies equipped with EVERY TYPE of weaponry being used all over the globe.

The real issue of weapon control globally is that of private sale and manufacture of weaponry or its services. You either buy a "do it yourselfer" and just get the goods to the people interested, or promote the "full package" with credible and lasting economic power enforced militarily for transferable right.

The UN/ NATO has become the "hessians" of the western world.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

You have to remember that the United States after WWI was an ISOLATIONIST country. The population was dead set against ever again sending U.S. Soldiers overseas to fight another WAR. We were dragged into war by the attack on Pearl Harbor.

How'd that work out? The Nazis tried to take over the damn world!!

Damn isolationists!!

The U.S. went again into another World War and came out of that was a Super Power. After we were facing a theat from the then Soviet Union which was gobbling up contries like candy and Built a Wall around Berlin and seperated Germany for decades. The Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia and had plans to invade the Middle East as a way to control the Oil as well as have a Warm Weather port for their navy.

And how'd that work out? US intervention crushed the soviets through peaceful means, but did crush them.

Sounds like two good outcomes through two different means.

Lesson - Use diplomacy and pray for the best (Hitler laughed at us)....when that fails....KICK some A$$.

The soviet union didn't laugh...it imploded.

Originally posted by seabag


The soviet union didn't laugh...it imploded.

True statement.
The Russians didn't have the economy to match the US spending. US out spent the Russians. It worked.

Only problem, Russia stopped spending, the US didn't.

You looked at the Debt Clock lately, "He who laughs last , laughs loudest"

Originally posted by casenately
Honestly sea bag, I respect your opinion but

Terrorist smerrorist,
This isn't about the sudden concern for nuclear proliferation. We have recently seen the rise of mercenary armies equipped with EVERY TYPE of weaponry being used all over the globe.

The real issue of weapon control globally is that of private sale and manufacture of weaponry or its services. You either buy a "do it yourselfer" and just get the goods to the people interested, or promote the "full package" with credible and lasting economic power enforced militarily for transferable right.

The UN/ NATO has become the "hessians" of the western world.

edit on 18-1-2012 by casenately because: fix

I would have to disagree....any country that wants to use Nuclear Power as a way of producing energy has the right to buy this tech. as long as they are a stable nation and sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. IRAN did this and purchased Russian Reactors...but then it broke the treaty in every way possible....one of the big ones is building thousands of centrafuges for the purpose of making Nuclear Bomb level fuel.

For someone to say that Iran is not trying to build a Nuclear Bomb...is a joke and they don't know what they are talking about. But any country can obtain nuclear energy as long as they abide by the rules or make it themselves. Split Infinity

reply to post by casenately

Honestly sea bag, I respect your opinion but

Terrorist smerrorist,

This isn't about the sudden concern for nuclear proliferation. We have recently seen the rise of mercenary armies equipped with EVERY TYPE of weaponry being used all over the globe.

The real issue of weapon control globally is that of private sale and manufacture of weaponry or its services. You either buy a "do it yourselfer" and just get the goods to the people interested, or promote the "full package" with credible and lasting economic power enforced militarily for transferable right.

The UN/ NATO has become the "hessians" of the western world.

Star for that! I respect your opinion as well.

If I sell you a gun today, because you are my friend, and you turn on me next week , and become my enemy, then it is time to disarm you. I don’t care who is responsible for what. I live TODAY….not YESTERDAY or LAST YEAR…or whatever. The situation on the ground TODAY is what we have to deal with. Quite possibly we’ve created the monster in Iran (though it’s not entirely the fault of U.S.) but that doesn’t change the fact that we have to deal with these idiots today! Do you see where I’m coming from?

Originally posted by SplitInfinity

Originally posted by casenately
Honestly sea bag, I respect your opinion but

Terrorist smerrorist,
This isn't about the sudden concern for nuclear proliferation. We have recently seen the rise of mercenary armies equipped with EVERY TYPE of weaponry being used all over the globe.

The real issue of weapon control globally is that of private sale and manufacture of weaponry or its services. You either buy a "do it yourselfer" and just get the goods to the people interested, or promote the "full package" with credible and lasting economic power enforced militarily for transferable right.

The UN/ NATO has become the "hessians" of the western world.

edit on 18-1-2012 by casenately because: fix

I would have to disagree....any country that wants to use Nuclear Power as a way of producing energy has the right to buy this tech. as long as they are a stable nation and sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. IRAN did this and purchased Russian Reactors...but then it broke the treaty in every way possible....one of the big ones is building thousands of centrafuges for the purpose of making Nuclear Bomb level fuel.

For someone to say that Iran is not trying to build a Nuclear Bomb...is a joke and they don't know what they are talking about. But any country can obtain nuclear energy as long as they abide by the rules or make it themselves. Split Infinity

No one said they wouldn't eventually build a bomb. The thing is that they aren't going to use the thousands of centrifuges for the purpose of making Nuclear Bomb level fuel. They can't sell that as much as they could use those installations to secure the energy market. It is an economic move not a military one.

The theory of Israeli danger from nuclear attack is null and void. They wouldn't kill themselves in the fall out. They are not dumb. The problem is they want to form a currency based on energy as the backbone. that would de-stabilize the balance of power from a dollar/ debt based economy, to a system of actual value. A system hard to control all the triggers in. that's all.-

its economic military enforcement. not security based concerned for the global well being.