Natural remedies "seldom effective"

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
The point of the article is that 95% of what they studied is either ineffective or in some cases harmful.

Do you have the study statistics we can look at? Do we have the controls they used?

Or do you just blindly accept those 95% results because they fit into your conceive notions?

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


I REALLY get tired of heating this:

"The problem is people go on the internet, which is not reliable."

"The Internet" is not reliable?!? Like this site: PubMed? Or this one: Environmental Health Perspectives? How 'bout the Lancet or the Institute of Medicine publications? All suspect?

"The Internet" allows thinking people to do their own research and analysis, learn, grow, and come to their own conclusions. Often, the information we find and conclusions we draw do NOT support the corporate program. so it's Open Access that's the problem here - and free thought and speech - NOT the "unreliable" Internet.


Pah.

My entire life I was under the impression that Big Pharm was always the correct answer, until about four years ago when I started turning to natural and homeopathic remedies. I haven't taken a pill that isn't natural in the last four years. I can say with utmost certainty and confidence from personal experience that it works. Mother earth is meant to and can heal us, we just have to allow her to. You can't just take the pills though and remain skeptical, your energy has to be good, open and accepting as well. I was an intelligence analyst for various 3 letter agencies in my past, I don't assume anything and I analyze everything from every angle before I can agree with certainty about anything.

This is the same for bi-polar people and depressed people as well. With the proper therapy and resources, all medication can be safely removed from one's life and the symptoms can remain gone. I'm not telling anyone to stop their meds and just start on the natural stuff right away, because it takes a certain mental state one must first be in before stopping medication can even be considered.

reply to post by Thurisaz


Just throwing this out there, antibiotics are clinically proven not to help with the cold. The reason is that the cold is not caused by bacterial pathogens but viruses. So when you take your alternative medication you are simply treating your symptoms and not the root cause. Virus just have to their course when in your body.

reply to post by soficrow


No that statement is a direct response to this thread, this is exactly what the quote is talking about. People that have personal experiences that may have been positive and claim such products work. Without a background in biochemistry or pathology or biology or physiology or anatomy. A doctor must go through 4 years of school where they learn every little bit of the human body. Then they go on and specialize in specific bodily functions or parts. If the alternative medication actually worked these individuals would be the first to flaunt do to the hippocratic oath. So the quote is telling us to trust our doctors and not Joe blow on conspiracy.com

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
The point of the article is that 95% of what they studied is either ineffective or in some cases harmful.

Do you have the study statistics we can look at? Do we have the controls they used?

Or do you just blindly accept those 95% results because they fit into your conceive notions?

I don't blindly accept those results (and no I haven't seen the details), however I find them to be consistent with research I've done on related topics. For example, here is one site which does list specifics:

www.quackwatch.com...

There are many, many specific claims of alternative remedies some of which are natural where the evidence is at best anecdotal.

And of course I believe in the effectiveness of the placebo effect, which has been quite validated by science. This is what the anecdotes often fail to consider...how does the person telling the anecdote know that their positive effect was from the natural substance, or from the placebo effect? I find in nearly every case, they don't know and may not even understand how double blind studies account for the placebo effect. It is this type of widespread ignorance which makes the 95% number pretty easy to believe, even though I can't confirm it. It could be 80% or 97% for all I know.

And of course, the 95% ineffective number also implies that 5% ARE effective, so I certainly don't dismiss all natural remedies; I just look hard to find the 5% that are really valid, based on more than unreliable anecdotes. Big Pharma would go out of business if they had to rely on me as a customer.

reply to post by My.mind.is.mine
I'm with you on the ACV. I had chronic sinus problems for years, then decided to give ACV a try (2 tablespoons of ACV in a glass of cold water, 3 times a week). Result: No antibiotics and no sinus problems for over 5 years now. The serotonin connection is something I haven't heard before. I'll see how it works for me. Regarding Paxil: I too realized that I need to be responsible for my own mental health just as I do for my physical health, without relying on pharmaceuticals to do the work for me. I understand that some folks need the extra help due to situations beyond their control, but my problems were self-created.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Well this thread has been quite the laugh.

I'm sorry OP, you should have known you can't reason with the placebo effect coupled with a hatred for all things scientific.

Damn scientists and their giant organized conspiracy against the planet and everyone on it.

Oh and for anyone without basic reading comprehension, he never said that ALL natural remedies were bogus, just most of them. Take a moment and turn the "conspiracy" on its head, all these people pushing and selling natural remedies are in it to make a buck as well.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


what i take from your excerpts is that the doctors have discounted "natural" remedies due to what they cite as biologically implausibility and a lack of support from research evidence. no where do they cite what research or if said research was carried out directly under this study. as far as biological implausibilities, i recall the claim that life itself is a biological improbability. we currently have no understanding of what makes a nonliving mass conscious and living so I can't see how we are fit to discount natural cures, especially considering the relatively few examples of natural cures supplied.

from my own experience however i find that both modern medicine and natural cures have been unnecessary for my well being as i have secured my health by my belief in it and by my will.

Originally posted by cycondra
Damn scientists and their giant organized conspiracy against the planet and everyone on it.

Yeah I know... its scary :wow

Drilling into Lake Vostok and releasing microbes that haven't seen the light of day for 420,000 years..
Wanting to drill into Yellowstone magma 'to release the pressure..'
NASA scientists bombing the moon (Carl Sagan planned to do that with a nuke )

Those 'scientists' are evil and will wipe us all out one day..

OH and without herbalists and shamans paving the way with natural remedies, those scientists would never have isolated the active ingredients in those plants in the first place

Oh and for anyone without basic reading comprehension, he never said that ALL natural remedies were bogus, just most of them

My reading comprehension is just fine HE didn't say it at all he merely quoted an article that says it. What he DID say was

"but none-the-less I think it is important to note that all the real studies of such "remedies" keep coming up with the same sort of conclusions. "

But then all we have is a link to an obviously biased article posted by an obviously biased poster... with exactly ZERO links to the actual studies to back up that claim... Then Arbitraguer adds that "No he hasn't seen the studies but believes then" Love the investigative reporting that ATS has become lately

Take a moment and turn the "conspiracy" on its head, all these people pushing and selling natural remedies are in it to make a buck as well.

There are charlatans in all walks of life, even doctors doing fake surgeries for a buck but you are just as bad as the OP as you say "all these people pushing and selling"

Pathetic

Originally posted by denynothing
reply to post by Thurisaz

 

Just throwing this out there, antibiotics are clinically proven not to help with the cold. The reason is that the cold is not caused by bacterial pathogens but viruses. So when you take your alternative medication you are simply treating your symptoms and not the root cause. Virus just have to their course when in your body.

Your correct but sometimes when it's bad you can treat the symptoms in order to have the strength to fight the root cause.

Poppycock.

Anyone who has experienced the effects of natural substances such as comfrey, cannabis, salvia, mushrooms or cacti KNOWS that plants and other natural substances can be just as powerful and fast-acting as any synthetic drug. Indeed, the most effective medicines in existence are the ones which evolved alongside us, and they are also the ones which have been most aggressively attacked by the Pharma industry and their henchmen.

I believe that it is BECAUSE so many of these immuno-supportive substances have been legislated out of our diets that we are now seeing rapid increases in diseases such as cancer. This, of couse, suits the Pharma charlatans perfectly, enabling them to sell more of their utterly useless (and often deadly) chemistry. It's interesting that the minority of modern medicines which actually do work are often synthetic analogues of compounds isolated from these outlawed plants. Aspirin, as an example is effective, but is also far more harmful than the willow bark from which it's active ingredient is derived.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


So which pharmaceutical company are you employed by to make topics like these?

Originally posted by zorgon

My reading comprehension is just fine HE didn't say it at all he merely quoted an article that says it. What he DID say was

"but none-the-less I think it is important to note that all the real studies of such "remedies" keep coming up with the same sort of conclusions. "

But then all we have is a link to an obviously biased article posted by an obviously biased poster... with exactly ZERO links to the actual studies to back up that claim...

There is a link in the OP - perhaps you could actually look for it??

And me...biased? Yeah - absolutely - in favour of verifiable evidence.

And yep - the predictable ATS howling mob response has occurred. Shrug - it's tough being in favour of provable facts around here

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

Well, from a user of natural remedies and ex chemical medication user, I testify that they work, and work well.

Every single one of them??

Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

I REALLY get tired of heating this:

"The problem is people go on the internet, which is not reliable."

"The Internet" is not reliable?!? Like this site: PubMed? Or this one: Environmental Health Perspectives? How 'bout the Lancet or the Institute of Medicine publications? All suspect?

how often do people consult those when looking for alternative remedies??

Pah indeed.....

Originally posted by cycondra
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

Well this thread has been quite the laugh.

I'm sorry OP, you should have known you can't reason with the placebo effect coupled with a hatred for all things scientific.

Oh I knew that - lol - I wasn't expecting anything else.

But who knows - each time someone points out the bleedin' obvious about this stuff perhaps someone somewhere benefits from pausing and considering things rationally for a change.

We can live in hope!

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


It's becoming all too clear that the natural products industry is gaining too much influence of synthetic designer drugs. The bottom line is we are going to have to collectively accept some form of personal responsibility for our choices.

I lost all faith in the medical establishment after they irradiated both of my grandparents to death. Both were so chronically ill from chemo and radiation that the only hope for the medical profession was one last boost of radiation therapy.

It's astounding how we can't prescribe harmless placebos but can inflict such destruction on those who do not wish to suffer. We are living once again in the dark ages.

Originally posted by Toffeeapple
Poppycock to the scientific findings!

When properly researched and appropriately applied,.....

Awesome self contradiction!

Originally posted by deadeyedick

Originally posted by denynothing
reply to post by Thurisaz

 

Just throwing this out there, antibiotics are clinically proven not to help with the cold. The reason is that the cold is not caused by bacterial pathogens but viruses. So when you take your alternative medication you are simply treating your symptoms and not the root cause. Virus just have to their course when in your body.

Your correct but sometimes when it's bad you can treat the symptoms in order to have the strength to fight the root cause.

Actually he's not entirely correct. There are many alternative remedies that not only boost the immune system to fight viruses but also fight viruses themselves. There are many many herbs and supplements with proven antiviral properties.

Even your basic elderberry:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

MECHANISM OF ACTION
Elderberry constituents neutralize the activity of the hemagglutinin spikes found on the surface of several viruses. When these hemagglutinin spikes are deactivated the viruses can no longer pierce cell walls or enter the cell and replicate. Based on these findings, Sambucol[R], a syrup containing 38-percent standardized extract of black elderberry, was developed. Numerous studies using the Sambucol preparation have shown it to neutralize and reduce the infectivity of influenza viruses A and B, HIV strains and clinical isolates, and Herpes simplex virus type 1 (HSV-1) strains and clinical isolates. (15) It probably does so in the same manner as with influenza viruses, via neutralization of the virus resulting in reduced infectivity.

Proteolytic enzymes on an empty stomach and absorbed into the blood stream combat viruses:

Enzymes, particularly the proteases, turn out to be an excellent therapy to use against a virus, working on several levels. Many viruses are surrounded by a protective protein film, something a protease enzyme can digest away. Eliminating this coating leaves the viruses unprotected and vulnerable to antivirals and destruction.

These are just two examples of many drug free virus fighters. So no you don't have to just let a virus run it's course.