Natural remedies "seldom effective"

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by qver74

 

My motivations are in the initial post - to deny ignorance. It is clear to me that there is a lot of it here on ATS - so I try to do my bit.

Ok, let's deny ignorance here:
Anti-depressants work no better than sugar pill but have horrible side effects including worse depression and suicide.l

I used the Freedom of Information Act to force the U.S. Food & Drug Administration, which licenses drugs, to let me see all the trials the drug companies had run to get the most popular antidepressants approved.
That's when I got another shock.

More than half of the trials showed no difference at all between the drugs and the placebos - but most of those negative trials had never been published.

Controversial: 'Some researchers have been outraged by my work on the effects of antidepressants'
In other words, the benefits of antidepressants were even smaller than I'd thought, but the drug companies had hidden the data showing this.

Big Pharma has bought out our government and continually publishes lies. Now they are pushing to take away healthy natural remedies and label vitamins as unhealthy and controlled substances while our food becomes less and less nutritous even vegatables and legumes.

So are they:
A: stupid and don't know any better?
B: trying to harm us?

“…The first task is population control at home. How do we go about it? Many of my colleagues feel that some sort of compulsory birth regulation would be necessary to achieve such control. One plan often mentioned involves the addition of temporary sterilants to water supplies or staple food. Doses of the antidote would be carefully rationed by the government to produce the desired population size.” – Paul Ehrlich, The Population Bomb, p.130-131

“If I were reincarnated I would wish to be returned to earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels.” - Prince Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh, leader of the World Wildlife Fund – quoted in “Are You Ready For Our New Age Future?,” Insiders Report, American Policy Center, December ’95

“A total population of 250-300 million people, a 95% decline from present levels, would be ideal.” – Ted Turner – CNN founder and UN supporter – quoted in the McAlvany Intelligence Advisor, June ’96

“The world has a cancer, and that cancer is man.” – Merton Lambert, former spokesman for the Rockefeller foundation

“In order to stabilize world population, we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say, but it’s just as bad not to say it.” – Jacques Cousteau

I'll let people decide for themselves.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


So, the drug companies fill the shelves with products that are useless and secure their monopoly on useless pharaceuticals.

Now, what say you about nutriceuticals?
Just a few years ago this was a great new market that was good for people.
To get a nutriceutical ranking a product had to be
1: non-toxic
2: be proven to treat a disease or ailment.
3: be peer reviewed.
4:the product had to be standardized.
5: had to fall under gnp staandards.

So now that the drug companies have watered down the mkt to destroy it it's time to bury it.
I guess you are aware that the reason there are so few studies on plants is because you cannot patent a plant therefor you cannot monopolize it.
Yet most drugs come from isolating plant and animal compounds, go figure.

I will give you the best example.
Is there any drug available...ANY, that can compare to the health benefits of cannabis? Or the food and nutritional content of it's sister hemp?
But you can go to jail using either even though hemp not only kills your high (it counters the effects of thc) it counters the effects of cannabis.

This is the window to understand what is so wrong about this arg.
Who is paying for the studies for all the natural methods of healing? Since there is no way to patent something that you yourself can grow and use why would they do it?

Riddle me this.
The day before cannabis and hemp became illegal cannabis was the 2'nd most prescribed medicine in the USA. And 1 in 80 people would contract a cancer.
Today it's 1 in 3 men and 1 in 2 women will get cancer. Yeah, we need to put more power in the hands of the single largest monopoloy the world has ever seen, pharmaceutical drugs.
The 4'th leading cause of death is properly prescribed and taken pharmaceutical drugs.
Nobody ever died, EVER from consuming hemp or cannabis.
Here's your window to see a real conspiracy. Can you see through it?

lol - Hi PP - nice lack of actual peer reviewed literature there.

thanks for reinforcing my point.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
lol - Hi PP - nice lack of actual peer reviewed literature there.

thanks for reinforcing my point.

You seem to trust "peer reviewed" studies like these:

stevenjohnhibbs.wordpress.com...

I really hope, for your sake, you don't really believe all of this "peer reviewed literature."

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by qver74

 

My motivations are in the initial post - to deny ignorance. It is clear to me that there is a lot of it here on ATS - so I try to do my bit.

Why do you thnik someone has to work in a particular industry to post a link to a news item?? Do you think everyone posting about Iran/Israel issues works for Mossad, or Iranian Diplomatic Service, or the US State Dept for example??

good, good. With all the great info and positive anecdotal evidence in this thread alone you should be a lot less ignorant than when you posted the OP. Glad we can all help in your recent denials

Yeah. But didn't a German scientific study released a week ago say that there really is something to the theory that water has a memory?

Always ask who funded any study. Usually, that will give you a clue as to what was or will be the results.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
lol - Hi PP - nice lack of actual peer reviewed literature there.

thanks for reinforcing my point.

LOL back at ya where is your so coveted peer reviewd studies. I have seen none only your OPINION which is clearly not an informed opinion.

this thread is great though the OP resembles a paid peer reviewed study for fake sugar. it has done one good thing shown what real people use for their ailments and how the natural remedies have had a greater effect on human life than their comparable patented and overpriced snake oils, that do more damage than good.

I thank you people here on ATS and other sites on the NET for posting their experiences they hold much more weight than the opinions of this OP and the Drugs they support.

It's not just the opinions about natural remedies, I like opinions and seek them out. Problem is these opinions often become THE LAW. I don't want to have to obtain a prescription for vitamins, as is now the practice in parts of the world. I want to remain free to use natural remedies and preventative measures of my choosing and not be forced into an expensive and spirit-zapping medical treatment plan.

At nearly 60 years of age I've had doctors that have prescribed me "bad medicine" and I don't trust them to make medical decisions for me. I want their advice, THEIR OPINIONS about treatment and health options and alternatives, and then make my own decisions.

Mostly, I resent anybody, any organization that attempts to usurp ownership and decision-making right over what I do with my own body, how I treat it and what I put into it.

I'd of course maintain that they are quite effective...when utilised *effectively*

Thats from growing up within a Rongoa/Natural Medicine clinic...learning about Rongoa, what to use, how to prep it and how to administer it.

Just from my own experience of hands-on usage of it with many many people it certainly generated at least as much as - and often more - positive outcomes than the standardised western medicines.


Also - working with the health sector and hospital sector for some 17 years I'm aware of just how ineffective some of the medications and pharmaceutical interventions are that we dispense each and every day...its not at all uncommon for patients we work with to utilise 'complimentary therapies' with equal and/or great effect and often with far less side-effects and so forth.



...at the end of the day I can only go by what I know, see and work with each and every day...and from that it does appear to be rather contradictory to what this *expert* is saying...


*editted to add:

I guess the thing to be mindful of is that theres a plethora of information and 'studies' and 'evidence' out there at heralds this and heralds that as either effective or ineffective.

As a Health Professional (yes, even got the qualifications on the office wall and am Manager of a Health Service to prove it ) I keep reasonably up to date with various research outcomes and so forth...and partake in numerous research and evidential studies as well...there is just so much conflicting information out there...so much that if you were to prescribe purely based on the latest evidential effectiveness you'd be changing a patients 'drug of choice' on a daily basis.

Hence why I say I tend to rely on what I've personally *witnessed* as being effective - rather than what someone else tells me is...even if they are a peer.

By all means that certainly has its pitfalls...what I witness is not necessarily the full and final answer...never can be...but it as certainly seen me and my patients pretty right for this long...

reply to post by Erongaricuaro


You know I didn't actually say anything about "Big Pharma" at all - nor about restricting choice of natural remedies".

But this is what happens when you challenge "ATS Dogma" - say anything bad about the orthodoxy around here and it's just as if you suggested cold fusion at a physics conference - it's quite enlightening, and not at all unexpected - that the defenders of the faith get all antsy.

But this being ATS tehy respond with personal attacks and irrelevancies.

For example "Big Pharma" being dishonest, etc has nothing at all to do with whether or not alternative medicine practitioners are honest. And being humans and out for a buck it is unsurprising they are dishonest when they can get away with it too.

And being "alternative", and not having ANY restrictions on them for most of history around most of the world they take as much advantage of that as possible.

How big is "alternative medicine"?? Apparently it is expected to be a $95 BILLION industry by 2015...in the USA alone

As of 2009 the pharmaceutical industry was about $808 BILLION worldwide, with the USA accounting for 37% of that, or almost $300 billion - so slightly more than 3 x what "natural remedies" are going to be worth in a few years time.

But if you think a $90-100 billion market in the USA is made up of sweetness and light and only truth and good things then you are in cloud-cuckoo land.

The alternative medicine market is big business too - and if you think Big Pharma are rogues for publishing misleading results when they think they can get away with it, think of the opportunities for Alternatives who don't have to bother publishing anything at all.

But apparently that's not a consideration here on ATS. Big Pharma = bad, therefore everything else must be good.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


your statistics and numbers are irrelevant. you can't grow big pharma remedies at home. I bet I can buy some seeds, and some herbs and be set for a year... $95 billion my ass...

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Now this I do agree with.


Sure - what some may term this big bad dark *evil* 'Big Pharma' - could well be seen in to be at least partially driven by motivations outside of what is best for the end-user/patient.
That's business...pure and simple.

Be ye pedalling medications or selling used cars...of course YOUR product is going to be better than the next guys.
No real conspiracy there...its basic marketting.


I know as a prescriber I'm targetted by numerous Pharma Companies...provided lots of nice perks and *gifts* and so forth as incentive for my attendance at their information (ie:marketting) forums.
Any given day I can be shown all manner of stats and charts and evidence that Medication X is more effective than Medication Y...and Medication Z is more effective than Medication Y...and so on and so on.

We just conveniently have to ignore that these tests and studies are being carried out by either the Drug Co themselves that is marketting that medication...or one of their associates...

...again thats just pure business...not many businesses (again regardless of what you are selling) are going to put forth data that shows their product is inferior to their competitions...


That said:
I have also seen just how effective specific medications can be when used for specific purposes (trust me, much out there is used with a 'shotgun approach'...throw all manner of things as a *problem* and you're bound to hit something). So I certainly DON'T ascribe to this Pharma = Bad mentality.

What works for someone is what works for them.
If thats rubbing tea leaves on you...cool.
If thats popping a few pills...cool.
If thats baying at the moon and dancing in circles...cool.


Lets not demonise options...be they synthetic OR natural.

I think this issue relies on each and every individual. Personally, I have been to see a Chinese Herbalist who gave me some drops to take to help with some things (insomnia for one) and the drops worked.

Horseradish and garlic definitely help with colds, I reach for them b4 antibiotics!

other stuff like multi vitamins are a waste of time, I have not felt any different if I have taken them but others may have a result so it is not for me to say they are a load of bs or ineffective.

anyway, thx for reminding me, I will ring the Chinese Herbalilst and make an appt cos I have a bad bout of insomnia once more.

cheers

I think this is an un-fair thread to post on "ATS"
I'm sure a large percent of natural remedies sold on-line are bs! but there are heaps of benificial natural remidies, that can be found and used for free that do work.

The reason I say the thread is un-fair on ATS is because of the "T&C's" we cannot discuss a number of them, and i'm not talking about illicit substances, just another product produced by a certain plant.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

There is a context to everything.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a "Natural" remedy - or a Synthetic remedy, for that matter. A chemical compound, or complement thereof, will interact with the body according to the laws that govern chemical reactions. To look at it any other way is a fool's game.

Placebo effects are difficult to study and compensate for. Studies have shown the Placebo Effect has actually been getting -stronger- in industrialized nations. This is likely due to an increased confidence in the capabilities of medical treatment. The Placebo Effect is still a relative area of mystery - and most medical practitioners will tell you that the will to overcome health issues is more important than the form of treatment prescribed.

Studies have also indicated that surgery is little more effective than lifestyle changes (although meta-analysis of the relative success of lifestyle changes compounded on top of surgery are not provided). Bypass surgeries are, statistically, little different from lifestyle therapy and adjustments (life-span after heart-attacks or other medical problems average roughly the same).

There are multiple factors to consider - but we live in a microwave society. We want it yesterday. This mentality is the basis for most of the issues our generation faces (the housing crisis, credit problems, health issues, learning disabilities, etc). It's no different in medicine. We want to go to the doctor and get a pill or procedure that will fix the problem so we can go on like nothing happened.

It's not a healthy concept of reality. Our bodies are not like cars. You can't just stuff food in them and drop by for an oil change on occasion (and put them in the shop when something critical fails).

That said - there's the opposite end of the spectrum; where people believe they can simply will their way out of anything. They adorn their body with magnets, ingest various metals, etc in the hope of defeating or staving off illness, pain, etc.

There's a very interesting case, in those. Studies have shown these methods to be little better than placebos, if not worse. However, a number of people believe it does, and doing it puts them at ease and/or reduces pain.

It may or may not have any clinical backing for it being an effective treatment... but why destroy someone's quite effective placebo mechanism?

Good doctors will prescribe hypochondriacs a placebo, or, in some cases, prescribe placebos for minor issues involving irritation. The precedent exists for utilizing the placebo effect as a treatment.

That said; I think the best course of action is to simply sway things back the other direction. www.wired.com...

Two comprehensive analyses of antidepressant trials have uncovered a dramatic increase in placebo response since the 1980s. One estimated that the so-called effect size (a measure of statistical significance) in placebo groups had nearly doubled over that time.

Note, this is mostly discussing cases of depression - a largely psychological issue to begin with; an arena placebos have always fared very well in.

But the large way to address this is to swing things back in the other direction. Rather than a prescription serving as the placebo - make exercise and proper eating the placebo (arguably, this could be some kind of ulterior motive behind the organic food label).

Though that will be a difficult stigma to change.

so how do you explain GPs that do post graduate study in the field of environmental and nutritional area?

ACNEM

this isn't some half cocked study...these are specialist GPs.

?

this guy here cured my Son of Autism Spectrum Disorder:

STIRLING
Ph: 08 8370 9777
Contact: Sinclair Bode
Profession: GP
Main interests:Autism ONLY

he was the only Doctor (specialist) to do blood panels, hair tests!
and the blood panel result was that my Son had LEAD posioning!!!

hmm so much for ASD!!!!!

I think lots of natural remedies induce the placebo effect, which would explain their popularity: people think they work, so they work.

With the new research that shows that *thinking you are getting better* often releases the correct biological hormones, enzymes and immune response quite often, that the same could be said about natural remedies, that the placebo effect is just what it says on the tin: *thinking yourself better*

Originally posted by dadfortruth1
I think this is an un-fair thread to post on "ATS"
I'm sure a large percent of natural remedies sold on-line are bs! but there are heaps of benificial natural remidies, that can be found and used for free that do work.

The reason I say the thread is un-fair on ATS is because of the "T&C's" we cannot discuss a number of them, and i'm not talking about illicit substances, just another product produced by a certain plant.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

btw I should add that I do agree with the op 100% that most natural remedies are "seldom affective" and are just people taking advantage of others for their own profit.
I just think ATS is the un-fair part of this.

And some other countries (not going to name) that use certain parts of animals as natural remidies make me

reply to post by dadfortruth1


well as I said before, this issue is based on individual experience but how would feel if one of your children had been cured from a disease that the general medical practice had decided could not be cured?

last post from me in this thread but all the best and when you experience an alternative cure, then you will change your opinon.

and I guess that is what it takes?

cheers

Our fundamental problem with healing is simply that we look at it from entirely the wrong perspective. TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) and perhaps Tibetan as well place primary focus on the person as the holder of their health, but they also look at more than just the physical body when they diagnose. They look at the person's entire being - physical, emotional, mental. All play parts in overall health and none is more important *or relevant* than the another. In the West, we virtually ignore anything but the tangible and so we fail at a great deal of healing.

Please don't start with the "tiger's penis" or "yak smegma" cures from Asian medicine. I know, I know. The point is not that, it is their approach. Western medicine has it just as wrong.

What we need is a greater understanding of how Nature provides us with all remedies and in sufficient quantities too. We in the West need to really take to heart the fact that our culture is what makes us ill. No amount of pills or anything else will cure that. We have to change our world now. We will have no good health on any level until then.