people expect to hear a loud booming voice or something along those lines but it is a small still voice that God speaks to us.
If we will quiet our own minds and hearts and believe we can hear that small still voice.
And when you do hear it you will never forget it.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse Romans 1:20

Originally posted by American Mad Man

If there is NO God, then how was EVERYTHING - be it the planets and stars, atoms protons nuetrons electrons, or our very abillity of free will - created?

Well one could say EVERYTHING was created in the same manner that a GOD could have came into being.. from nothing. This argument does little to give us reason to beleive our ancient uneducated ancestors who wrote the bible.

The very definition of God is an all powerfull creator. The problem is that humans have this need to humanize God. Think outside the box - if YOU were all knowing and all powerfull would you not think or act differently? You wouldn't try to prove to a bunch of humans you exist. Or maybe he has, and we are just to stupid to see it.

Well the bible disagree's with you. Almost the enitre bible is trying to prove god exists. Jesus tries to prove he is God and in the old testement, God supposedly killed people for not beleiveing and following his word. So if we are to beleive in the god in the holy bible it must follow that that god wanted us to beleive in him.

Why if God wants us to beleive in him would he make it so difficult to do so. Also why would he create us to be to stupid to understand him?

Basically WHO KNOWS? You can't. But if you look at the circumstantial evidance - that is, EVERYTHING, I would put my money on Gods existance. Besides, I'd rather believe in God and be wrong then NOT believe in him and be wrong!

I'll agree with you here. It is easier and feels safer to believe in god than to recognize that once we live our 70-100 years thats it, lights out, and nothing more.

God has given modern man nothing to know him. I guess he felt closer to ancient man as he evidently created many a miracle for them to see to prove his existence. All we have now is the words of the ancients.

If ever humanity needed a savior, and a god, it is now.

If we survive another 50 years, science will prove one way or the other how the universe started. I hope they truely do find a loveing god at the other end of the telescope. I doubt that is the case though.

Most of the billions of people on this planet right now, are destined for hell according to the Holy Bible. Maybe a Godless creation is preferable to that?

Well if what you guys are saying is that God was always there, an eternal being:

A. What the hell was he doing before he created us (s'n-word').

B. If he could exist eternally, why can't the galaxies and universes?

in response to part a:

The bible says that God has always been, and always will be. This makes no sense. That's right, it makes no sense to me at all, because everything had to come from somewhere right? I don't understand it because i am not God. If you believe in an all powerful God, why can't He live outside time? Why can't we understand this? Because we are only human. I can't begin to understand all the things that God can do. But surely an almighty God who created the Earth, and the heavens, and our concept of "time" can exist, partially in, but mostly out of our understanding.

Reflector

Hope and faith are meaningless attributes to give to myself. They tend to make me feel like I'm a slave to someone else's will. The longer I live, the more bad things or lack of good things happen. This leads me to believe that "the invisible men" are less than invisible because they're less than real.

I even find myself becoming bitter when anyone talks about religion, mainly because it is so dogmatic and ritualistic. It seems that I hear about religion all the time and each of those times are spent praying over something terrible that happened. Yes, I'll subscribe to the idea that God paints with dark colors, but what the HELL is up with using so much? Anyone follow?

Living each day with the thought that we have no control and then be consumed by some sort of feeling of loss just isn't worth it. Economics is a bit*h. Battling for resources is one thing, but constant unhappiness is another. I think people hold onto religion because nothing else will hold onto them. Without those invisible people, you would feel even more alone. Sad, but true.

If I can give anyone advice, it'd be that a life alone isn't worth it. Do whatever it takes to be apart of a family, but try not to make it an imaginary one.

Has anyone noticed that Ezekial is just sitting there shooting down individual beliefs and laughing at people? As I stated in my earlier post, any individual's personal religious beliefs are based upon their own experiences and form a framework that makes sense to that particular person at that point in time of the meaning of their place in the universe.

Religion is a matter of personal faith. It is not an absolute. It cannot be "proven". Christians of many stripes, Jews, Muslims, Bhuddists, Hindus, Wiccans, Taoists, whatever.............there is no "One True Religion", as much as radicals would like to believe.

keep talking about the Bible.........ignore them! What does the Bible have to do with Wicca, or Confuscianism, or Hindu beliefs? The original question had to do with a God in general, not any specific God.

Who cares about the Bible except for Christians, and to a lesser extent, Jews and Muslims? Any discussion of religion worldwide in general has to go way beyond any of that.

I will say one more time, in case there is any mistake, religion is an individual and personal matter. If you choose not to believe in a particular doctrine, that's up to you, but DON'T TELL OTHER PEOPLE WHAT TO BELIEVE OR MOCK THEIR BELIEFS!

This is the last post I intend to make on this thread. BTW, Einstein said, "I refuse to believe that God plays dice with the universe", and "the universe shows signs of intelligent design". Those statements indicate to me that Einstein acknowledged the existance of a Supreme Intelligence without necessarily being 'converted" or whatever to any particular belief system or organized religion.

This thread seems pointless at the moment, except possibly as a source of amusement to Xeven and Ezekial.

I must admit that I have been quite amused with this thread, I'm sorry if I seriously offended anyone. But my mocking has a method to the madness (at least to me), I want to test the strength of peoples beliefs by asking all manner of questions from many angles to both prove my points and to see how valid other peoples points are.

I may not be able to disproove 'Gods' existance, and you cannot proove his existance, but I can proove that humans don't NEED a spiritual figure to live a fulfilling life.

Originally posted by Ezekial
I must admit that I have been quite amused with this thread, I'm sorry if I seriously offended anyone. But my mocking has a method to the madness (at least to me), I want to test the strength of peoples beliefs by asking all manner of questions from many angles to both prove my points and to see how valid other peoples points are.

I may not be able to disproove 'Gods' existance, and you cannot proove his existance, but I can proove that humans don't NEED a spiritual figure to live a fulfilling life.

Can I ask that you define what you mean by 'fulfilling'?

To me, the very concept of 'fulfillment' means that there is a purpose to existence. Based on a non-spiritual view of life [evolution], survival is the only purpose for existence. Are you feeling fulfilled by merely surviving? What else is there?

Originally posted by Xeven
Well one could say EVERYTHING was created in the same manner that a GOD could have came into being.. from nothing. This argument does little to give us reason to beleive our ancient uneducated ancestors who wrote the bible.

IMHO, God (being all powerfull ect) would be eternal, and thus would have always been in existance. Since God was the creator of all, He would not be created. God simply exists for eternity in both directions of a time line.

Well the bible disagree's with you. Almost the enitre bible is trying to prove god exists. Jesus tries to prove he is God and in the old testement, God supposedly killed people for not beleiveing and following his word. So if we are to beleive in the god in the holy bible it must follow that that god wanted us to beleive in him.

Why if God wants us to beleive in him would he make it so difficult to do so. Also why would he create us to be to stupid to understand him?

Well let me first say that the Bible, for me, has some major flaws. Anytime you have politics and religion mixing along with historical "facts" the whole truth probably will not be told.

If God (the common Christian one) gave us free will as it says he did, then it would be up to us to believe/not believe in Him. God would present us with what He wanted and would leave the rest up to us.

As far as being created too stupid to understand Him, who knows? I mean, it is kind of silly to even try to rationalize anything to do with a decision God might make. Think about it - God would have infinite wisdom on his side, the average human would have a 100 IQ and some schooling.

God has given modern man nothing to know him. I guess he felt closer to ancient man as he evidently created many a miracle for them to see to prove his existence. All we have now is the words of the ancients.

You make a good point. That is the main reason I do not believe in organized religion. There was too little scientific thought back then (in regards to proving or disproving a potential savior) and way too much political influence.

If ever humanity needed a savior, and a god, it is now.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Originally posted by illimey
Can I ask that you define what you mean by 'fulfilling'?

To me, the very concept of 'fulfillment' means that there is a purpose to existence. Based on a non-spiritual view of life [evolution], survival is the only purpose for existence. Are you feeling fulfilled by merely surviving? What else is there?

By fulfilling I feel that I have good friends, enjoy my life and generally am happy with the way things are in my personal space. I do not need a higher being of any sort to live this way. I believe in myself and what I can achieve. Everything I have ever wanted or needed has been given to me by my own actions (ie get a job to buy the things I want/need, be friendly to people in order to create relationships).

Does that help you understand where I am coming from?

Originally posted by Ezekial

Originally posted by Mortis
So what do you believe "caused" the world to happen?

Simple. Chaos Theory. No higher being, commonly refered to as 'god' for those insecure about their lives.

Chaos Theory is not a cause. It is the observation of cause and effect and patterns. Mortis' question would be better phrased as "What do you believe is the primordial cause?"

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Originally posted by Ezekial

Originally posted by Mortis
So what do you believe "caused" the world to happen?

Simple. Chaos Theory. No higher being, commonly refered to as 'god' for those insecure about their lives.

Chaos Theory is not a cause. It is the observation of cause and effect and patterns. Mortis' question would be better phrased as "What do you believe is the primordial cause?"

Yes it is a cause.

Chaos Theory revolves around cause and effect (or lack of effect to cause other effects). Like evolution. And all those who think that they didn't evolve like the rest of us, well doesn't it sound a little Aryan to you?

Originally posted by Ezekial
I must admit that I have been quite amused with this thread, I'm sorry if I seriously offended anyone. But my mocking has a method to the madness (at least to me), I want to test the strength of peoples beliefs by asking all manner of questions from many angles to both prove my points and to see how valid other peoples points are.

I may not be able to disproove 'Gods' existance, and you cannot proove his existance, but I can proove that humans don't NEED a spiritual figure to live a fulfilling life.

Please do so, then. Just because you get fulfillment from friends, family, etc., makes it so for everyone else? A "fulfilling life" is too relative to bring into this argument. What fulfillment is for you is not necessarily fulfillment for another. It would appear that some humans do NEED a spiritual figure to live a fulfilling life, whilst others don't. Some humans don't WANT a spiritual figure to live a fulfilling life, and that is fine. Afterall, I believe the meaning of life is to make life meaningful. Each person has to discover what is meaningful to them in life. If they should find that meaning in a higher power, then so be it. It's their meaning to find.

Originally posted by Ezekial

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Chaos Theory is not a cause. It is the observation of cause and effect and patterns. Mortis' question would be better phrased as "What do you believe is the primordial cause?"

Yes it is a cause.

Chaos Theory revolves around cause and effect (or lack of effect to cause other effects). Like evolution. And all those who think that they didn't evolve like the rest of us, well doesn't it sound a little Aryan to you?

Chaos Theory is a both a cause and an effect. It is a result of what was observed in Chaos. It causes people to look at things differently.

It was not, however, the cause that answered the question asked.

Since you believe in chaos theory, I will ask you again. "What do you believe is the primordial cause?"

I'm guessing you mean an ultimate cause for things to happen?

Then no, the galaxy is a large random event that then through chaos theory directs into patterns and cause and effect.

Originally posted by Ezekial
I'm guessing you mean an ultimate cause for things to happen?

Then no, the galaxy is a large random event that then through chaos theory directs into patterns and cause and effect.

Actually I was refering to the "first" cause.

Every effect has a cause. Every effect has the possibility of being a cause.

What was the cause of the first effect(s)?