From where I stand, I personally have enough evidence to support the existance of a supreme being.

So, it's about Choice.

Choose to believe, or choose not to believe. It's called Free will. Being given the option of believing or not believing. Our choice. God doesn't send anyone to hell. People choose that over believing in Him. The God that I believe in is a God of love and loves everyone. He loves us enough to give us free will to choose whether or not to love Him.

Requiring "proof" of His existance before believing in Him negates faith. If God spoke directly to you at this moment and said that he could save you from any harm, would you believe Him? Or would you just believe that an invisible being existed? Would He then have to "prove" that He could save you from any harm? Would THAT be enough? Or would you require more?

So believe. or not.

Mortis

Faith is knowing that when you come to the edge of all of the light that you know and you're about to step off into the darkness there will be something for you to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly.

Originally posted by Thatoneguy

Live your life to your choosing. I personally did not ask you to live mine

I thank you for that. But I know a lot of Christians. They love to convert. They think it is their duty to make everyone in the world become a christian.

Lol. I don't get dressed up and go to church. I wear my pajamas, and so does my significant other. He was an agnostic when he met me, and he's never even seen the church we are members of. It has online sermons, and I listen to the online sermon every Sunday morning at our own choosing. He overheard it once, and liked what he heard, and started sitting and listening with me after that. He "converted" on his own time.

I think that's how life works, and how spirtuality works. It's not about getting dressed up in your best clothes and jewelry and trying to sit in the first three pews of a man-made building. It's not about wearing sandwich boards and standing on the highway median. Most of these people "sin" as much, if not more, than non-believers.

Religion is about sharing ideas about morals and ethics. Spirituality is a personal feeling that can not be explained. It's like asking someone what love looks like.

If someone observes me, and thinks, 'Wow, she seems very peaceful and I'd like to see how she does it,' I'll tell them how I got here, though the 6-inch tattoo on my right forearm (of my invisble friend) is a good indicator.

"Not a Sermon, Just a Thought."-Lon Solomon, McClean Bible Church
Dot.

From where I stand, I personally have enough evidence to support the existance of a supreme being.

Why don't you share it with us?

So, it's about Choice.

Choose to believe, or choose not to believe. It's called Free will.

Since God created the universe and the physical laws that govern it, how is it that I have free will? all the particles that make up my body have a preconfigured 'trajectory' through spacetime, defined by God.

God doesn't send anyone to hell.

So who made hell?

The God that I believe in is a God of love and loves everyone.

Why does God let a 1 month baby to die? and how is this baby gonna be judged at the day of judgement, when he/she did not live long enough to be proven good or bad?

Requiring "proof" of His existance before believing in Him negates faith. If God spoke directly to you at this moment and said that he could save you from any harm, would you believe Him? Or would you just believe that an invisible being existed? Would He then have to "prove" that He could save you from any harm? Would THAT be enough? Or would you require more?

I agree with this. We can't tell if we really exist or it is just a dream. So, even if God appeared before of us, we wouldn't still believe it. But why should we have faith in a god, or God? we should we believe that there is something beyond that we see and feel?

I personally believe that the God concept is a straight concequence of the higher order intelligence that we possess. Since we humans realized that we are going to die, we needed a concept to make death easier.

On the other hand, God may exist. That the universe exists for me to write this stuff, is crazy enough. God != religions, though. It's religions(dogmas, churches) that are harmful.

because that is the way God made us. Adam and Eve talked personally with God until they failed the test and became fallen people. And it has passed down thru the ages.
God being perfect cant go near badness. It is like a moth asking to switch on the bug zapper. WE are like that moth as soon as God shows us His glory we will be zapped because we are imperfect creatures. That is why we need the blood of Jesus to cover us. When we don't believe in God it is like we are disconnected to the power, once we find Him it is like we are plugged in to the power and everything becomes turned on spiritually.
Just like we have a desire for food and there is food to eat, we have a desire for sex there is such a thing as sex, a duck desires to swim in water and there is such a thing as water, so we desire to know that there is a God and eternal life, so there must be such a thing to fulfill this desire.

Why don't you share it with us?

I'll refrain from the Biblical arguments and hit a few of the logical arguments.

Ontological argument - Since over 98% of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, on all continents believe in the existence of God – there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.

Teleological argument - Since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a Divine designer. If earth were even a few hundred miles closer or further away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10.e+243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 0’s). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.

Cosmological argument - Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That “un-caused” something is God.

Moral argument - Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from God?

That's only 4 of the arguments. I could go on, but I won't.

So who made Hell?

Hell doesn't exist yet. The whole fire & brimstone, pointy-eared devil with a pitchfork is a wonderfully weird creation of society. Satan was cast down to earth which is where he currently resides. Hell will be created in the end and Satan will be cast into the lake of fire.

Why does God let a 1 month baby to die?

Goes back to free will. As someone else stated, God can not harm any one. It is contrary to His existance. But, God can and does allow bad/evil things to happen. He allows us to choose. Satan does not want people to choose God. So Satan may kill a child in an attempt to turn the parents away from God.

Going back to your first question, first realize the concept of an omnipotent God. God allows you to choose, but God also knows what you will choose. It's difficult if not impossible for us to imagine. Some would say that that's not really free will then. I would say that there's a big difference between knowing what someone will choose before they choose it, and making the choice for them.

Mortis

Originally posted by Thatoneguy

I thank you for that. But I know a lot of Christians. They love to convert. They think it is their duty to make everyone in the world become a christian. [edit on 18-9-2004 by Thatoneguy] [/quote



If a christian really really believes what the Bible says then we do have a duty to tell(this is not only verbal but through actions and deeds and living a life for God) others. Christians can inform you of who God and Christ really are, and the plan for mankind. The Bible is clear that it is the Holy Siprit who convicts people and calls them out from the world. We inform but He changes a person when they receive Christ. Everyone must choose of their own free will to be saved. It is an on purpose decision that someone makes.

So Satan may kill a child in an attempt to turn the parents away from God.

But if you believe in the God of the bible, satan could not do this without god's prior permission. So are you saying that god would authorize satan in the killing of this child? For the purpose of hurting the parent's faith?

Originally posted by Mortis

I'll refrain from the Biblical arguments and hit a few of the logical arguments.

Ontological argument - Since over 98% of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, on all continents believe in the existence of God – there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.

Teleological argument - Since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a Divine designer. If earth were even a few hundred miles closer or further away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10.e+243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 0’s). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.

Cosmological argument - Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That “un-caused” something is God.

Moral argument - Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from God?

Awesome, you've provided excellant arguements i'll be sure to use against a few of my agnostic buddies. Im glad you didn't get the whole bible arguement involved. I myself am agnostic theist, I bend towards theism but have never been introduced to such strong arguements.

Originally posted by Mortis

Why don't you share it with us?

Moral argument - Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from God?

That moral sense also translates into basic communal survival skills. ie. What a tribe or nation would do to help effectivly insure survial. Nature seems to dictate alot of man's early social skills. Each crime or sin(whatver you call it) hurts an organized, civil society. In order to prosper or survive, you can't have everyone running around stealing and murdering.

When you think about it, it is probably better for that baby to die and go to heaven than to stay alive and go thru the trials of life.

A one month old baby would surely go straight to God because it hasn't had a chance to do anything wrong, it is purely innocent.

Originally posted by Mortis
Ontological argument - Since over 98% of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, on all continents believe in the existence of God – there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.

Anthropological and sociological counter... no, in fact, most people didn't believe in "a divine being." Divinities of the order of the Christian god only come along when a society develops a political system based on chiefs. Other types of societies have an animistic view where there are powers for each thing but no one Great Power.

And most groups are polytheistic, not monotheistic.

Teleological argument - Since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a Divine designer. If earth were even a few hundred miles closer or further away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10.e+243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 0’s). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.

Actually, no. The fact that we're here and the Earth is here means that the chance is exactly 100%.

Feynman had a good example of this. He rushed into his class and announced, "There's a car in the parking lot and it has a license plate that reads D77*H41! What are the chances of that being a coincidence?"

The answer (as he pointed out to his students) is "exactly 100%." Pointing to a known phenomina and saying "Oh look! A miracle!" does not make it a miracle or proof of anything. An observation is an observation is an observation.

Cosmological argument - Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That “un-caused” something is God.

So what caused God? If you say that God is 'un-caused' then we can counter with "the big bang is your un-caused event" with equal evidence.

Moral argument - Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from God?

How about from group behavior of vertebrates. Wolves and other animals that live in groups (including our distant cousins, the apes) all have "rules" for social order and they're all enforced. Humans have these rules because they're what enables us to live together as tribes (if you don't kill others and don't sanction them killing you, then there's more available mates when the time is right. Simple logic... no deity involved.)

In fact, you'd find that athiests adhere to these standards as do cultures that don't have a "god."

It's evolution baby!

OK, so 'God' put us on Earth? No. If he/she/it DID put us on earth it would hzve been in a previous form, not as Homosapien. Evoluition is the proof, Religion is the excuse before we understood (a kind of bluff).

your cousins might be apes but mine arent. I come from an all powerful all loving creator.

There is enough information capacity in a single human cell to store the Encyclopedia Britannica, all 30 volumes of it, three or four times over. And just as the encyclopedia didn't evolve, neither did we.

So 'god' made the earth and everythign in it? then placed adam and eve in there. Hmm, interesting - does that mean we are all in-bred? wouldn't the genetic side effects of procreating with your siblings created gentic alterations and mutations?

As I said, Science is the reason,
religion is the excuse/bluff.

The first scientists were people who believed they were created from God. Albert Einstien converted to Christianity on his death bed because he knew that there could be no other way for this universe and all that is in it to come into existance.

Originally posted by rosebeforetime
The first scientists were people who believed they were created from God. Albert Einstien converted to Christianity on his death bed because he knew that there could be no other way for this universe and all that is in it to come into existance.

State your source on Einstien. And even then it's not goign to influence me. Big whoop, he believed in god, hell Hawkins is even wrong some of the time.

I will get back to you about Einstien. I have to find the book.

If there in no such thing as an all loving Creator, tell me, why is love such a powerful thing. Yet you cant measure it, weigh it, or see it, but it is there all the same.

Originally posted by rosebeforetime
When you think about it, it is probably better for that baby to die and go to heaven than to stay alive and go thru the trials of life.

Sometime last month, a missionary couple were traveling through Columbia on a public bus. The father was holding the couple's two baby daughters in his lap as the bus wound it's way down a mountain road. The bus driver did not see a truck that was making it's way up the road until it was too late to stop. The bus driver made an instant decision to steer the bus off the road rather than hit the truck head on. The bus ended up in a river after careering down a steep slope.

The couple survived. Their two daughters died.

Just last week, I was asked to read a letter from this couple during a church service.

Yes, the couple are utterly grief-stricken.
Yes, they can't help the very human (parental) feeling that it should have been them rather than their daughters who died.
But, ultimately, they realize that their precious girls are far, far happier now than they ever could be on this God-forsakING planet....

A one month old baby would surely go straight to God because it hasn't had a chance to do anything wrong, it is purely innocent.

No-one who has never had the chance to hear and understand the truth will find themselves isolated from God (i.e. in hell) for eternity. This includes those too young to have reached a point of decision, as well as those who have simply lived their life without ever hearing the truth. The crucial issue is not the LACK of understanding or knowledge [innocence], it is the DECISION that is made with that understanding and knowledge when it is made available [personal responsibility].

I haven't studied this thread fully, and perhaps that means I shouldn't take part in it. But I have been silent in these forums for to long and this message that I am replying to couldn't pass me by.

So - Invisible voiceless gods! Why does modern man still believe?

What a question! I do not know why so many people still believe in an endless array of voiceless, non-existent, gods.

The truth is simple, but the lies are subtle.

I cannot offer proof for my following statements, if I could it wouldn't be faith would it?

There is only ONE GOD!
God is not voiceless! The very universe screams of God's existence, which is one of the many reasons why THIS modern man believes!
[evolution (or more specifically, MACRO-evolution) is one of the subtle lies I mentioned earlier]

The real puzzler is:

Crawled out of boiling slime! Why does modern man still believe?

God isn't voiceless He speaks to us all the time. Even people who have never heard about God have written in their hearts what is right and what is wrong. That is how He speaks to people through their concious. Some people ignore that inner voice and become very hard hearted. They do things which are wrong and the more they ignore that voice the worse they become.

Byrd,

Thank you for your responses. You make me think. I'll get back to you when I have a few extra minutes.

One quick question. How is it possible for someone to be a true athiest?

If the meaning of athiest is: Someone who does not believe that God exists. That person must assume that we know all that there is to know and we will never learn any more. Taking a stance that there is no proof for God and also that there is no proof that God doesn't exits. Isn't it possible that at some later point in time proof could exist in either direction?

Would not the self-professed athiest then be forced to change to agnostic? Meaning: I dont' know if God exists.

Mortis

Science has proof without certainty.
Christianity has certainty without proof.