Indian Air Force vs. Pakistani Air Force

Originally posted by AtheiX
Of course Su-30 is better than this junk F-15 but why do you think F/A-18 is worse than Su-30?
And why don't you say a word about JSF?
And what about Typhoon?

I assumed the F-15 was better than the F-18.
The JSF will take some years to enter full scale srevice.
The Sukhoi Su-37(30MKI) is better than the Typhoon.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
I assumed the F-15 was better than the F-18.
The JSF will take some years to enter full scale srevice.
The Sukhoi Su-37(30MKI) is better than the Typhoon.

Why do you think F-15 is better than F/A-18?
Why do you think Su-30 is better than Typhoon?
Do you think JSF will be better than Su-30?

Originally posted by AtheiX
Why do you think Su-30 is better than Typhoon?
Do you think JSF will be better than Su-30?

The Su-30MKI is more advanced than the typhoon.Its got better aveonics, better missiles, better menuverability, better surviveability, a better radar, 3-D TVC, is cheaper in purchase and maintainence. It beats the typoon in almost every area.

The JSF (the version replacing replacing the f-16 >> F-35?) might not really be able to compete with the sukhoi as a pure fighter, but will certainly be more effective in taking out ground targets. But it would make a formidable foe indeed , complimenting the raptor

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
More like you like to hate on other countries!

If saying that the US has a superior military then any other country, I guess so. You call it hating, I call it reality.

The fact is, America hasn't really faced an evenly-matched foe or superior hostiles, so it's hard to judge at this point whether them being unbeatable is simply because we're that good or because it's just us taking advantage of the inferiority of other nations' air forces.

Agreed - we have not faced an "evenly-matched foe."

But why is that? It is because there is no one that can match up with us.

The Usual suspects are Russia and China. Russia has many of their aircraft outdated and unmaintaned while their pilots get a fraction of the flying time tat US pilots do. China has even less technology, even older planes, and their pilots have zero combat experience.

Now, I am not saying that the US is unbeatable, but we are as close now as anyone has ever been. I think most people would conceed this.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by AtheiX
Why do you think Su-30 is better than Typhoon?
Do you think JSF will be better than Su-30?

The Su-30MKI is more advanced than the typhoon.Its got better aveonics, better missiles, better menuverability, better surviveability, a better radar, 3-D TVC, is cheaper in purchase and maintainence. It beats the typoon in almost every area.

The JSF (the version replacing replacing the f-16 >> F-35?) might not really be able to compete with the sukhoi as a pure fighter, but will certainly be more effective in taking out ground targets. But it would make a formidable foe indeed , complimenting the raptor

And why are Su-30's radar, avionics, surviveability, missiles and menuverability better than Typhoon's?
And why JSF wouldn't really be able to compete with the Sukhoi?

Because Americans believe that we in Europe only build tat. Their ego's cannot accept anything different

As for the F-35, maybe the F-35a and F-35C will be better than the Sukhoi bythe time they get into service, otherwise there would be little point in building them. The F-35B however is a tactical aircraft like the Harrier so wouldn't be expected to be 'better' in a dogfight.

Also Atheix, would you mind terribly not repeatedly typing guff like "old junk", "MiG junk" "such junk should disappear from the skies" etc etc.
It just comes across as a silly remark from a gimp who knows nothing about aircraft, which I'm sure is not the case

Originally posted by waynos

Also Atheix, would you mind terribly not repeatedly typing guff like "old junk", "MiG junk" "such junk should disappear from the skies" etc etc.
It just comes across as a silly remark from a gimp who knows nothing about aircraft, which I'm sure is not the case

Just try it. What are the advantages of old aircrafts like MiG-15-27? Or Su-20-25? Besides that they're are flying aeronautics museum? Don't be dissappointed I call them junk

I never said that there were advantages, my point is that such comments about things being 'junk' are infantile, the sort you would expect from an ignorant child.

Can you explain to me how an otherwise sound and respected aircraft transforms itself into junk, by your definition, without the aid of an AAM, cannon fire, running out of sky or being on the same side as America in a war, which is what I always thought was required?

edit; just seen you include the Su-25 in your definition. You must therefore also include the F-everything except the 22, Tornado,Harrier and F-117 in that because they are all older than it.


[edit on 6-10-2004 by waynos]

Originally posted by AtheiX

Originally posted by waynos

Also Atheix, would you mind terribly not repeatedly typing guff like "old junk", "MiG junk" "such junk should disappear from the skies" etc etc.
It just comes across as a silly remark from a gimp who knows nothing about aircraft, which I'm sure is not the case

Just try it. What are the advantages of old aircrafts like MiG-15-27? Or Su-20-25? Besides that they're are flying aeronautics museum? Don't be dissappointed I call them junk

So much for junk. Read my previous posts and find out how some 20 F-16's could do nothing about a single Mig-25.

Why is it people prefer to beleive the PAF shot down one of thier own F-16s or got brought down by FOD from the bombs?

I can almost understand the PAF claiming they did. Otherwise it would make them the only operator of the F-16 in the world to lose one in A2A with a SOVIET SUPPLIED FIGHTER...oh the shame.

US observer ..."you spoiled our perfect record Dagnabit!"

Could this be like the Iraqi MiG-29 story of 1991,where F-15 drivers claimed to have observed an Iraqi flying a figure eight CAP shooting down his wingman before they nailed him? I remember it was suggested he might have had his AAMs set for auto lock and fire (what ever that is)

The Mirage IIIO and OAs are ex RAAF machines built by CAC and sold to the PAF in 1989 when we were cozy with them last time around.

Yes the PAF might get beaten, but dont discount thier pilots. In the last big war in the 1970s the PAF pilots flying the old F-86s did extremely well against the IAF.

And I thought the Bush Administration had lifted embargos on the PAF with late model F-16s due in thier inventories.

From what I've heard about Typhoon NOW that they are coming on line thier owning Governments appear to be doing everything they can to undermine and hobble them.

Its like my government wants to take the F-111s out in 2010 instead of 2020 because......"we're getting F-35s we getting F-35s"

The best part of US Aerospace seems to be its marketting departments....pardon my mope.

Besides, what does this have to do with PAF -v- IAF?

Originally posted by craigandrew
Yes the PAF might get beaten, but dont discount thier pilots. In the last big war in the 1970s the PAF pilots flying the old F-86s did extremely well against the IAF.

India won that war.

The PAF got CRUSHED in that very war.

Members of No.28 Sqn First Supersonics pose in front of one of the captured F-86 Sabres of the PAF No.14 Sqn at PAF Tezgaon.

[edit on 9-10-2004 by Stealth Spy]

Yes they did, I'm not saying they didnt.

I'm just saying the IAF didn't get it all thier own way. It didn't help the two Pakistans they were split by the bulk of India in the middle either. They lost huge amounts of kit when East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) fell. And the Indians and Pakistanis are, how do I put it, a lot less sensitive to multiple air campaign losses than the US sometimes demonstrates.

Western countries today as a whole (Australia included) seem to suffer from this media generated belief that if you fly thousands of sorties and lose two or three aircraft its a massive disaster (Go ask the 8th AAF in the ETO WW2 about disasters) whereas somebody in a country where war is a part of life expereince can be getting thier arses kicked here to Christmas and still get raptures over shooting down a flimsy army UAV with an AK.

If I was a Pakistany pilot and seen that in the sky*looks above* I would fly straight to the ground

Originally posted by craigandrew
Yes they did, I'm not saying they didnt.

I'm just saying the IAF didn't get it all thier own way. It didn't help the two Pakistans they were split by the bulk of India in the middle either. They lost huge amounts of kit when East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) fell. And the Indians and Pakistanis are, how do I put it, a lot less sensitive to multiple air campaign losses than the US sometimes demonstrates.

Western countries today as a whole (Australia included) seem to suffer from this media generated belief that if you fly thousands of sorties and lose two or three aircraft its a massive disaster (Go ask the 8th AAF in the ETO WW2 about disasters) whereas somebody in a country where war is a part of life expereince can be getting thier arses kicked here to Christmas and still get raptures over shooting down a flimsy army UAV with an AK.

I fully agree

Originally posted by Kenshin



If I was a Pakistany pilot and seen that in the sky*looks above* I would fly straight to the ground

You'd better believe it man! Looks amazing innit? Cockpits pretty sucky though! Russian ignorance for interior design aesthetics!

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Cockpits pretty sucky though! Russian ignorance for interior design aesthetics!

The cockpit of the SU-30MKI is a fully revamped one with french, bititsh, american, and indian made panels. It looks almost like a eurofighter's.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
A cool photofeature of The Atlantique Kill
vayu-sena-aux.tripod.com...

nice kill
( shooting down a unarmed air craft
the indian air force are real bad boys )

Originally posted by Kenshin



If I was a Pakistany pilot and seen that in the sky*looks above* I would fly straight to the ground

its safe to say
not everyone is like you


[edit on 18-10-2004 by bodrul]

Originally posted by bodrul

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
A cool photofeature of The Atlantique Kill
vayu-sena-aux.tripod.com...

nice kill
( shooting down a unarmed air craft
the indian air force are real bad boys

)

Why dont you read and comment on these :

vayu-sena.tripod.com...


In May 1997, an IAF MiG-25R Foxbat-B reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Pakistani territory.... [By Peter Steinemann]

vayu-sena.tripod.com...


Su -30 MKI info : vayu-sena.tripod.com...

Pakistani af truly sux

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Cockpits pretty sucky though! Russian ignorance for interior design aesthetics!

The SU-30MKI employs extensive use of French (Sextant Avionique) components in the cockpit. A total of 6 LCDs, 5 MFD 55s and 1 MFD 66 for displaying information and accepting commands are used. The six LCDs have a wide-screen, offer image-superimposing and are shielded to make them readable even in bright sunlight. All the flight information is displayed on these four LCD displays which include one for piloting and navigation, a tactical situation indicator, and two for display systems information including operating modes and overall operation status. A VEH 3000 holographic HUD is standard. The cockpit also retains some traditional dial displays as standys.

The aircraft is fitted with a satellite navigation system (A-737 GPS compatible), which permits it to make flights in all weathers; day and night. The navigation complex comprises an inertial directional system (Totem) and short and long range radio navigation systems. It also has a laser attitude and a heading reference system. An automatic flight control system makes all phases of its flight automatic, including the combat employment of its weapons. Once the automatic flight control system receives information from the navigation system, it solves the route flight tasks - involving a flight over the programmed waypoints, the return to the landing airfield, making a pre-landing maneuver and the approach for landing down to an altitude of 60 meters, as well as uses the data supplied from the weapons control and radio guidance command systems to direct the aircraft to the target and accomplish the attack.


Front (left) and Rear (Right) cockpits

note: Sukhoi brochures intentionally carry horizontally fliped pictures of the cockpits in their public literature like brochures and websites.
The diagram in the middle is the actual layout, and the one of the left has been flipped possibly for secrecy.

The communications equipment comprises secure VHF and HF radio sets, a secured digital telecommunications system, and antenna-feeder assembly. It mounts an automatic noise-proof target data exchange system, which provides for coordination of the actions of several fighter aircraft engaged in a group air combat. The voice radio communication with ground control stations and between aircraft is possible up to a range of 1,500 km in the Su-27SK, and the Su-30MKI should equal it if not better this. The Integrated Information System (IIS) allows the performance of a ground serviceability test of the entire equipment and the location of troubles to an individual plug-in unit. In case of an in-flight failure, the indicator of the integrated information system will provide the pilot with a text message about the failure and recommendations on how to correct it or will dictate further actions. The message is also duplicated by voice.

A two-pilot crew provides higher work efficiency (thanks to distribution of the aircraft handling and armament control functions) as well as the engagement in close and long range combats and the air situation observation. Besides, the same dual control aircraft can be used as a combat and training aircraft. Additionally, the integrated air-borne equipment enables the aircraft to be used as an air command post to control the operation of other aircraft.

In practice, the front seater is the pilot and the back seater is the "Wizzo", the WSO (Weapons Systems Operator). The pilot flies the aircraft and handles air-to-air and some ATG weapons, as well as countermeasures. The WSO takes care of the detailed aspects of navigation, ground radar mapping & target designation, setting up delivery solution for ATG weapons, designating for guided bombs/missiles, ECM, and so on. There are many tasks which overlap; either pilot or WSO can do the job depending on circumstances.

The crew are provided zero-zero KD-36DM ejection seats which have a slightly modified comm/oxygen interface block compared to the Su-27. Rear seat is raised for better visibility. The cockpit will be provided with containers to store food and water reserves, a waste disposal system and increased amounts of oxygen. The KD-36DM ejection seat is inclined at 30�, to help the pilot resist aircraft accelerations in air combat.

Flight Control and Other Avionics
For flight control, reliability and survivability, the aircraft has a FBW with quadruple redundancy. Depending on the flight conditions, signals from the control stick position transmitter or the automatic FCS will be coupled to the remote control amplifiers. Upon updating, depending on the flight speed and altitude, these signals are combined with feedback signals fed by acceleration sensors and rate gyros. The resultant control signals are coupled to the high-speed electro-hydraulic actuators of the stabilizers, rudders and the canard. For greater reliability, all the computers work in parallel. The output signals are compared and, if the difference is significant, the faulty channel is disconnected.

An important part of the FBW is based on a stall warning and barrier mechanism with an individual drive of its own. It prevents development of aircraft stalls through a dramatic increase in the control stick pressure. This allows a pilot to effectively control the aircraft without running the risk of reaching the limit values of AoA and acceleration. The stall control is accomplished by the computer of a signal limiting system, depending on the configuration and loading of the aircraft. The same system sends voice and visual signals, as the aircraft nears a stall condition.

An oft criticised aspect of Russian aircraft in general is their 'poor' servicebility. This is more of a perception, and in capable hands they can return more than satisfactory performance. The Su-30MKI does add some new features regarding this, including self-diagnostic software that will indeed make life a lot easier for the airmen!

Indian Contribution
The Su-30MKI contains not only Russian, French and Israeli Customer Furnished Equipment (CFE), but also a substantial percentage of Indian designed and manufactured avionics. They took six years to develop from start to MKI. Advanced avionics were developed by DRDO under a project code named "Vetrivale" (a Tamil name for the victorious lance carried by the youthful Lord Karthikeya or Murugan, a son of Parvati and Shiva) in close collaboration with the PSUs and the IAF. Indian avionics have been received and acknowledged enthusiastically by the Russian principals.

The following are the components developed by Bangalore-based Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE):

Mission Computer
Display Processor
Radar Computer
Radar Warning Receiver - High Accuracy Direction Finding Module (HADF) called Tarang Mk II or Tranquil - manufactured by BEL. Tarang was originally developed for the MiG-21 Bison but later adapted for most IAF aircraft including the MiG-27ML.
Integrated ommunication equipment - HAL
Radar Altimeter - HAL
Programmable Signal Processor has been developed by the LRDE

These avionics equipment have also been certified for their airworthiness in meeting the demanding standards of Russian military aviation. The cumulative value of such indigenous avionic equipment is estimated to exceed Rs. 250 lakhs per aircraft. Since the core avionics were developed by a single agency (DRDO) - they have significant commonality of hardware and software amongst them using a modular approach to design. This obviously results in major cost and time savings in development; it also benefits the user in maintenance and spares inventories.

The DRDO has gone a step further and come out with a new design of the Core Avionics Computer (CAC) which can be used with a single module adaptation across many other aircraft platforms. Thus the CAC which is derived from the computers designed for the Su-30MKI will now be the centre piece of the avionics upgrades for the MiG-27 and Jaguar aircraft as well. The CAC was demonstrated by DRDO at the Aero India exhibition at Yelahanka and attracted a good deal of international attention. Taken together with the systems already developed indigenously for the LCA (such as the Digital Flight Control Computer and HUD), clearly Indian avionics have a significant export potential in the burgeoning global market for avionics modernisation.

The navigation/weapons systems from the various countries were integrated by Ramenskoye RPKB.

PICS :

Sukhoi 30MKI Front cockpit pic

Su-30 MKI rear cockpit

Cockpit panels

[edit on 18-10-2004 by Stealth Spy]