It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Why is it communist/leftist to try and fight for better wages? Wanting more capital is leftist??

page: 3
8
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 05:50 AM
link   
Fighting for better wages is considered leftist, because it usually implies being part of a union; and trade unions are generally seen as being as close as it gets, to the actual existence of anarchist syndicates. Employers have traditionally disliked trade unions, because the entire point of a union is to prevent workers from being treated like slaves. On the flip side, however, you virtually won't find a trade union that doesn't have its' own Comrade Stalin running the show. It's evidence of the fact that it does not matter what system you implement; Capitalism, Communism, or whatever else. The psychopaths always end up in charge.

Ironically, the living wage was originally one of the main justifications given for Capitalism, where lower level workers were concerned; the idea was that Capitalism would ensure that the harder someone worked, the more money they would earn. Communism in Russia was typically cited as a counter-example of this.




posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 05:57 AM
link   
Fighting for better wages is a misnomer.

If you are of a specific skill set, you should be able to name your own salary.

By placing yourself in a position where others determine you salary, you cede any control over your own life. If your career choice places you in a position where you can''t name your own salary, then the fault lies with the individual.
To place blame in society for ones own shortcomings is a constant irritant to those of us that choose to grow in strength, knowledge, and ability.



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 07:19 AM
link   

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by WTFover

Originally posted by Cassius666
If the company can give you the option to take minimum wage or go live under a bridge...


Maybe, that's the most significant problem. What could workers earn, if there was more competition in wages? Now, the government permits employers to keep wages down, rather than have to compete for quality employees, with competitive wages.

Another problem, obvious to customers, is that minimum wage produces minimum work.


This premise is based upon the idea that the entire wage floor wouldn't drop if employers could
pay their employees much less than the current minimum wage. I think it is not very reasonable to
assert that business wouldn't cull overhead costs and convert that same capital into higher
dividends, profit or expansion. If you look at the industrial revolution and the history and behavior
of business owner prior to the dawning of the minimum wage, large business' rarely passed on a
surplus to the line workers. What is going to change this well established pattern in modernity?

If companies wanted to attract better employees, with higher wages they could do it today.

Frankly it seems asinine to think that the only way to raise standards is to create the appearance
that standards are higher by lowering the bar.


Some industries like fast food and manufacturing must be able to function with lousy employees, and their employees are nothing but biological machines. Ironically I think the social disintegration in America creates opportunities for motivated employees if they can find the right industries. The trick is to find an employer that needs more than a machine.

I think small businesses have better opportunities because each employee is more important.
edit on 15-1-2012 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 07:52 AM
link   

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by ldyserenity
reply to post by Cassius666
 


I don't know I apply to these jobs and ask for 10.50 an hour...they have the right to not call me, or they have a right to negotiate, I have the right to tell them to stick their jon too, if they want to pay me too low.
Oh yeah but that's another "leftist" thing, refusing to take crappy pay and waiting until someone actually will pay you what you are worth...

I'd rather have not two pennies to rub together than lower myself to working at Burger King or Taco Bell...I guess I just have an "entitlement" issue.


The funny thing is, when you look at the entire fast food model... Not only does the industry keep wages
extremely low, it also serves to poison the population on a massive scale. That is a bi product at least,
then if you consider the cost of the industry as it relates to healthcare costs. Of course fast food
translates the low wages that are paid to their actual employees, to the insurance industry where
the auxiliary business is amplified many food. I wouldn't surprised to find out that the elite holders
in the fast food conglomerates aren't also positioned in the medical "remedies" of their fast food
holdings. High Cholesterol meds, diabetes and cancer treatments... The amount of cost that is passed
off to the consumer in this world is staggering, it is just that we have been programmed to think
in a very shallow way.


I particularly like they way we have been programmed that when sick the 'manly' or 'responsible' thing to do is purchase a remedy (not a cure, a remedy to mask the symptoms) then go to work and infect your colleagues with your coughing and sneezing. Then they in turn will have to go and buy more remedies, and so on.

If we weren't brainwashed less of us would get sick every winter. Of course from the pharma industry viewpoint the ideal is for everybody to be suffering and medicated.



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 08:29 AM
link   
reply to post by Cassius666
 


It's just one of those arguments by extreme right wingers, they scream about socialism, and they would love to end all taxation. But, at the same time, they have a very weak grasp of social structure and economics. They just want to pay less and think they shouldn't have to contribute to society.

Try and get a response from those who want less taxation and no social welfare systems about what they would do in response to the massive homelessness, poverty, crime and disease that would inevitably come from a collapse of the social welfare system and you'll find a dumbfounded idiot who hasn't actually thought beyond their own selfishness.

Yeah, lets do away with the social welfare system altogether, then those right-wing Republicans can deal with the skyrocketing crime rates in their city, they can be stepping over the corpses in the street on their way to work, they can watch the news reports of the kids starving to death in their own country or the scenes of disabled and mentally disturbed kids in charitable institutions being tied to the furniture and being doped up, just as we saw before the welfare state existed. And then maybe they can feel really proud of themselves!

It's very easy to call all those who believe in some form of economic equality "commies" and "leftists", in reality, most know that there needs to be strong reform of the welfare system, employment law, corporate taxation and banking regulation.
Those who think otherwise with their knee-jerk responses of name-calling have very little argument when you confront them with the facts.

I'm no fan of bullying unions and their influence on government, but some of the BS I hear being spouted by the right-wing who have CLEARLY not thought about what their ideas would do to the country makes me sick. Yes, smaller government would be great, and less taxation would be nice. But not at the cost or social stability and the welfare of millions of people.

Funny thing is, if their precious military wasn't so massive, and if their corporations were actually taxed fairly and properly, the people wouldn't be paying so much in taxes themselves and covering the costs of the tax cuts for the wealthy and banking bailouts that BUSH implemented.

Ultimately, I support anyone who stands up for themselves and demands a fair chunk of the profits. Corporations are soulless machines designed to create profit for a few off the backs of the many. That's the way it has always been.
It is just a shame that the masses seem to have no education and continue to support these massively dangerous and destructive businesses over smaller and more ethical business structures. The people have the power here, and as long as people are giving their cash to the global corps nothing will change.
edit on 15-1-2012 by detachedindividual because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 08:36 AM
link   
reply to post by Cassius666
 


Communism is the biggest scam ever. They put their hands in your pockets and tell you it's the best thing for you for them to be in charge. They create the BS problems and then say, '"We're doing it for you!" Communists/Socialists don't help people achieve more, they simply destroy the hard working people that DO create jobs. Vlad Lennin once said, "90% of communizing a country is for the banks."



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 09:08 AM
link   

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Cassius666
 
If the communists and leftists were truly for the worker, then they'd fight for less taxes taken from the worker.

But they aren't. They could give a damn. They want power. They want larger government.





Excellent point Beezer. Income redistribution is the first order of biz for communists and socialists, and as such they will demand higher taxex progressively higher as you go up the income tax brackets. They argue that lower and middle income people are taxed at a lower rate(otherwise how could the Democrat Party garner so much support from others besides the obvious radical types?) but then they expect to keep raising taxes on only the wealthy. That means that they not only expect the wealthy to pay disproportionately, they are penalizing success. I would love for any one of them to walk up to a stranger and demand 60 percent of that person's dime on the grounds they have more!



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 09:13 AM
link   
reply to post by detachedindividual
 


The very wealthy 1% you talk about already contribute to charities well over and above what others can afford and they do it voluntarily. Graduated income tax is neither voluntary nor fair. You have no grounds for your premise. Graduated income tax penalizes people for making money and working hard.
I dare you to walk up to any stranger and demand they give you 60 % of what they have because they have it and you don't.


What kind of fairness or equality is that anyway? Oh you think it applies only to the very wealthy? What makes you think an unemployed person has any claim on "a chunk of the profits" of anybody's paycheck or any corporate proceeds? i'm sure you have never really thought through this or you would see the irrationality of it.

editby]edit on 15-1-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-1-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 09:21 AM
link   
reply to post by justwokeup
 


I am not a big fan of Big Pharma either. While I think many drugs are worthwhile, many are not and are just profit motive. While a company has to have some profit motive just to survive, it comes down to whether you use it to harm others. Using the children for profit is really a horrid practice.
Some really bad diseases were mostly eliminated in the US, such as polio, due to vaccines, but some vax are really dangerous. I remember reading articles in the 70's about the Swine Flu vax. I cannot believe they revived that monstrosity.

Also, Big Pharma promotes a more allopathic approach to medicine and in fact aggressively attacks any naturopathic remedy which may appear on the scene.

How can we know what remedies to really believe in when the truth is obscured by false or biased studies? One minute soy is fantastic and the next it's a dangerous food that messes up hormones.
edit on 15-1-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 09:27 AM
link   
reply to post by mastahunta
 


Fast foods were never intended to be a paragon of organic food source, and now the health food faddists are claiming to be poisoned. Go to a health food store then if you are that concerned. It is not like there are no alternatives. If you want to take up a real cause of poisoning, then protest the flourides in drinking water, as that is far more pernicious than some fats in Burger King.


Nanny Staters always want to dictate what others eat, drink, say, do and think.
edit on 15-1-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-1-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 09:34 AM
link   
reply to post by Mikeyy
 


I've seen that argument right here on ATS, the argument that China and Russia were not real communist. If they were not, I'd like to see what really is. ON second thought, no maybe I don't want to see it.



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 09:37 AM
link   

Originally posted by cloudyday

Originally posted by UmbraSumus
I think that workers need all the leverage they can get in organising the best deal for selling their labour. Corporations have become so behemoth and well resourced...its hardly a level playing field. But trade unions can get a little power hungry and corrupt too given enough time.


Amen, I think government anti-trust laws need to apply to labor. It would be better if there were three automakers negotiating with three competing unions. It isn't fair to have hundreds of thousands of individual autoworkers but it also isn't fair to have a monopoly on labor.



Then if the company's customer base dropped off, they could no longer even afford to sell their product at a reasonable cost, and then there would be a loss of jobs. Great thinking.



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 09:43 AM
link   
reply to post by spinalremain
 


Union leaders are definitely on a power trip. Take the example of Jimmy Hoffa and his egoistic remarks recently concerning the Occupy movement. Take the braggadocio of Richard Trumka claiming to be a big part of the Egyptian uprising. What else besides power could he have gained from that?



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 10:12 AM
link   
reply to post by detachedindividual
 


Wouldn't the humanitarian leftists give all of themselves and their resources to those in need after aforementioned collapse? You say there will be piles of dead bodies on the streets. Doesn't that, then, mean that perhaps the socially conscious and societally responsible leftists won't lift a finger to help them? Surely not! The left is solely responsible for helping the needy.

But you would, wouldn't you? You would give of yourself and your hard-earned wages to them all, because, as your post suggests, you are a pillar of leftist humanitarian ideals. At least, you seem to be the way you excoriate the conservative right.

/TOA



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 10:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by sasquatch5100
reply to post by Cassius666
 


Communism is the biggest scam ever. They put their hands in your pockets and tell you it's the best thing for you for them to be in charge. They create the BS problems and then say, '"We're doing it for you!" Communists/Socialists don't help people achieve more, they simply destroy the hard working people that DO create jobs. Vlad Lennin once said, "90% of communizing a country is for the banks."


I dont see what communism has to do with it. In communism everyone makes about the same, so nobody has the money to give to banks to begin with. With more and more companies being in a position where they can push through minimum wage for more and more job profiles, the lifestyle for a majority is detoriating fast torwards that of a communist worker, I would dare say, in some countries, like America, its already worse.

3/4 of footstamps recepients hold a job. Companies dont want to pay taxes, want to pay as little in wages as possible, all the while making money selling their products to a shrinking clientele that can afford them, ideally money is pumped into the system by the reserve or through tax money, but again they dont want to pay wages, so people can buy their products or pay taxes, they dont want to share their profit with the state either and many corporations bought the political power to get what they want.

How is all of that not coming to a screeching halt in the forseeable future?

Its like a football game, with bought referees and military intervention. If everybody only cares about winning and all the players have the power to bend and void the rules, the rules become meaningless and success and failure isnt determined anymore by whom has the best players and the best strategies, but by whom can score the most points by any means possible, even if that means shooting the opposite team.

Same in capitalism if all the players buy themselves the power to bend and break the rules of the game success and failure isnt dictated anymore solely by by whom has the best buisness model, but by whom has the political power to line his pockets, to outlaw the competition etc. .
edit on 15-1-2012 by Cassius666 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 10:36 AM
link   
I think all declared, self-proclaimed leftists and communists should post a security deposit to guarantee that all the idealisms will be fullfilled by whoever they decide will be the leaderships.

They should also pledge and assign all wealth and property to the workers.

Many military commanders always said:

"We in command need to eat the same food as the troops"



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 10:53 AM
link   
To sum up the thread:

If you are poor it's your own fault-Eat cake and die.



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 10:58 AM
link   

Originally posted by antonia
To sum up the thread:

If you are poor it's your own fault-Eat cake and die.


Or,

If you exist in a certain socio-economic category that you are unhappy with, don't expect government or taking from others to help you out.



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 11:02 AM
link   

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by antonia
To sum up the thread:

If you are poor it's your own fault-Eat cake and die.


Or,

If you exist in a certain socio-economic category that you are unhappy with, don't expect government or taking from others to help you out.


We all get it-If you are poor it's your own fault, if we all just pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps life would be so much better. We'd be millionaires, unicorns and candy would fall from the sky.

Spare me, it's never happened and it's not going to. All data says if you are born in a certain socio-economic strata in the U.S. you are unlikely to move up.

Don't you get bored telling the peons what idiots and wastes they are?



posted on Jan, 15 2012 @ 11:07 AM
link   
reply to post by antonia
 
Don't you get tired of putting words in others mouths?

Spare me all the reasons why you can't succeed.



new topics

top topics


active topics

 
8
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join