Why is it communist/leftist to try and fight for better wages? Wanting more capital is leftist??

Originally posted by ldyserenity
reply to post by Cassius666

 

I don't know I apply to these jobs and ask for 10.50 an hour...they have the right to not call me, or they have a right to negotiate, I have the right to tell them to stick their jon too, if they want to pay me too low.
Oh yeah but that's another "leftist" thing, refusing to take crappy pay and waiting until someone actually will pay you what you are worth...

I'd rather have not two pennies to rub together than lower myself to working at Burger King or Taco Bell...I guess I just have an "entitlement" issue.

The funny thing is, when you look at the entire fast food model... Not only does the industry keep wages
extremely low, it also serves to poison the population on a massive scale. That is a bi product at least,
then if you consider the cost of the industry as it relates to healthcare costs. Of course fast food
translates the low wages that are paid to their actual employees, to the insurance industry where
the auxiliary business is amplified many food. I wouldn't surprised to find out that the elite holders
in the fast food conglomerates aren't also positioned in the medical "remedies" of their fast food
holdings. High Cholesterol meds, diabetes and cancer treatments... The amount of cost that is passed
off to the consumer in this world is staggering, it is just that we have been programmed to think
in a very shallow way.

reply to post by ldyserenity


Glad to hear you're currently a responsible adult paying your own way. Working at a fast food place is crap work. I know as I've done it myself. But making $7.15 an hour (actually I was making $3.75 an hour) is a whole helluva lot better than making zero. I have to work for what I want, because of pride in myself. I wouldn't be any kind of example to my son if I sponged off of the American public.

/TOA

reply to post by The Old American


I just know I can do better than that I would move first to find a job fitting for me then taking that stinking fast food job...I sort of worked in the industry before at an Orange Julius, but I was in HS and they were a very good company I think they went out of business...and they didn't pay above min wage, so it wasn't what they paid I think that just good people always lose out in the end. I don't know but all the good companies seem to be dwindling away.
But I digress I moved down here alone with no money from PA while my mate stayed in Philly and worked held 5 jobs in less than 2 years some paid below minimum wage (private businesses) but I would take a hit in pay with a better boss anyday, it isn't always about the money. And they are often more reliable for references too, small business owners.

reply to post by ldyserenity


Hey I worked at taco bell! My boss was a nice guy too, jeez and the work wasn't demeaning. Boring and simple yes but I didn't feel bad being payed to clean up or assemble tacos on the factory line, stereotype and dehumanize people some more why don't you.

OT: OP am not sure what you're exactly asking, I guess why people want more money with their work? Well thats how its always been people want the most of what they put into something without realizing that physical labor isn't a job thats in high demand right now for the most part. Jobs are a market too, and the bigger the surpluses of that many people able or willing the less the demand and vice versa.

Originally posted by Cassius666
If the company can give you the option to take minimum wage or go live under a bridge...

Maybe, that's the most significant problem. What could workers earn, if there was more competition in wages? Now, the government permits employers to keep wages down, rather than have to compete for quality employees, with competitive wages.

Another problem, obvious to customers, is that minimum wage produces minimum work.

Originally posted by UmbraSumus
reply to post by Cassius666

 

Its an interesting Avatar you have when you consider that this man ......

fired the air traffic controllers on strike in 1981. Believed to be a seminal event for the legal right of private employers.


.........

To your question.

I think that workers need all the leverage they can get in organising the best deal for selling their labour. Corporations have become so behemoth and well resourced...its hardly a level playing field. But trade unions can get a little power hungry and corrupt too given enough time.

That I use him as an avatar does not mean Iam a fan. We are stuck in a race to the bottom, corporations want minimum wages to maximize their profits if they dont export the job for even less. But who is supposed to consume in the future, with more people making minimum wage and the value eaten up by inflation.

It isnt about ideology anymore. Its about wether the machine can keep going like this or if it breaks down.

Originally posted by Cassius666
Some people would decry that as leftist and what not. How is that leftist? If the company can give you the option to take minimum wage or go live under a bridge, shouldnt workers organize themselves and push for higher wages, by confronting the company with the possibility of bankruptcy?

My my my, I agree on something with Cassius.

There is of course nothing wrong with that. Workers have the right to organize privately and protest wages, protest against the treatment or working conditions they are receiving in a company. Likewise, the company has every right to fire or replace those protesting, or negotiate. Freedom is a two way street and this something many people, mostly on the right, can't seem to understand or comprehend.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Cassius666

 

If the communists and leftists were truly for the worker, then they'd fight for less taxes taken from the worker.

So essentially what you're saying is that when a company willfully provides poor wages to their workers, and poor working conditions, atleast compared to other companies, all for maximizing profit, the blame should solely be put on the government? The worker who is suffering must go and complain to the government? Because the generalization is that it's always the government's fault? Right.

And I suppose, after all those tax cuts, if the business continues treating it's workers poorly, they should continue complaining to the government?

Right.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Cassius666

 

If the communists and leftists were truly for the worker, then they'd fight for less taxes taken from the worker.

So essentially what you're saying is that when a company willfully provides poor wages to their workers, and poor working conditions, atleast compared to other companies, all for maximizing profit, the blame should solely be put on the government? The worker who is suffering must go and complain to the government? Because the generalization is that it's always the government's fault? Right.

And I suppose, after all those tax cuts, if the business continues treating it's workers poorly, they should continue complaining to the government?

Right.

In the end the workers should shut up and take what they get, that is what this all boils down too.
We can pansy around here and play the roll, but the government serves as a rhetorical tool in all of
these discussions. I think that is a cover story to cover up the nasty truth, which is distain for the
"underachiever" who has not "tried as hard or worked as hard" as the management. Never mind
that we all have to LIVE in this world, we all get sick and all instinctively expect a decent life.
Beezzer and Co. buy into the idea that life is some radical game of gimme gimme where freedom
is measured by how hard you can fall and how flat you can smash anyone you happen to hover
over. Government is just an excuse justifying an attitude and a mindset.

How many times have we heard that companies would pay MORE than minimum wage if minimum
wage was disolved???

I mean, I know if the movie theatre charged me $15 for a ticket instead of $18 I would gladly pay
$27.50...

Originally posted by spinalremain

What union are you affiliated with that you know these leaders and exactly what they want? I'm just curious. You often speak about union this and union that. How much first hand experience do you have?

Why do I need t be affiliated with unions in order to know what I'm talking about?

If unions wanted their people to have more money they'd;
Not take union dues
Use their Super PAC's to lobby for less taxes.

Let the American worker keep what he/she earns. But no. Leaders obfuscate and pad their own coffers with the sweat equity of the common worker.

Typical liberal double-speak. Doing one thing while criticizing the action.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

So essentially what you're saying is that when a company willfully provides poor wages to their workers, and poor working conditions, atleast compared to other companies, all for maximizing profit, the blame should solely be put on the government? The worker who is suffering must go and complain to the government? Because the generalization is that it's always the government's fault? Right.

And I suppose, after all those tax cuts, if the business continues treating it's workers poorly, they should continue complaining to the government?

Right.

Where did you get that???

Government takes peoples money. Government should not take peoples money. It's really that simple. Corporations don't actively FORCE people to give them money.
Only government does that.
And. . . .
If you don't like what a company pays you, find another job.

Why cloud the issue?

Originally posted by WTFover

Originally posted by Cassius666
If the company can give you the option to take minimum wage or go live under a bridge...

Maybe, that's the most significant problem. What could workers earn, if there was more competition in wages? Now, the government permits employers to keep wages down, rather than have to compete for quality employees, with competitive wages.

Another problem, obvious to customers, is that minimum wage produces minimum work.

This premise is based upon the idea that the entire wage floor wouldn't drop if employers could
pay their employees much less than the current minimum wage. I think it is not very reasonable to
assert that business wouldn't cull overhead costs and convert that same capital into higher
dividends, profit or expansion. If you look at the industrial revolution and the history and behavior
of business owner prior to the dawning of the minimum wage, large business' rarely passed on a
surplus to the line workers. What is going to change this well established pattern in modernity?

If companies wanted to attract better employees, with higher wages they could do it today.

Frankly it seems asinine to think that the only way to raise standards is to create the appearance
that standards are higher by lowering the bar.

Originally posted by Mikeyy
As it's already been said, Every living example of a communist/Leftest society, has resulted in big goverment, and the loss of personal freedoms.

With Government spending out of control till the point said government simply collapses.

Years ago I got into a fight with a liberal who argued tooth and nail that Communism was the way to go. When I offered the examples of the Soviet Union and China, he just choose to ignore them as not being "true" Communist Societies.

It's very easy to fight and argue your personal veiw with you choose to deny all the facts all day long...

yes Democracy has some serious flaws, but it really beats the hell out of everything else. We seriously need to STOP our goverment from expanding and controlling everything.

Your job at Taco bell wouldnt suck so bad if the government didnt spend us into oblivion and depreciate the dollar so much.

taco bell is a bad example, but say a grocery store. In the 70's working in a grocery store was Considered good money. So much so that in some cases you had to know somebody to get a job there.

I think it's actually a common misconception that the Soviet Union or China are evidence that collectivist ideals are impossible. Marxism/Leninism might not be possible, but significant state intervention in the market is far from impossible. The Soviet Union didn't collapse because of economics alone (Soviet GDP growth topped American GDP growth for much of the cold war, after all) - what brought about the end of the Soviet Union was a mixture of inefficient economics (which trundled along, slowly, but surely) and the desire on Gorbachev's part to bring in reform, both political, social, and economic. Hardline communists despised these liberalising efforts and killed the union in a coup.

Just for the record, I feel (and think that the evidence irrefutably supports) that market-based capitalism, for all of the risk inherent in the system, is a net good. But I just wanted to point out that the belief that China or Soviet Russia were completely 100% dysfunctional and malfunctioning societies is really just very factually inaccurate.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

So essentially what you're saying is that when a company willfully provides poor wages to their workers, and poor working conditions, atleast compared to other companies, all for maximizing profit, the blame should solely be put on the government? The worker who is suffering must go and complain to the government? Because the generalization is that it's always the government's fault? Right.

And I suppose, after all those tax cuts, if the business continues treating it's workers poorly, they should continue complaining to the government?

Right.

Where did you get that???

Government takes peoples money. Government should not take peoples money. It's really that simple. Corporations don't actively FORCE people to give them money.
Only government does that.
And. . . .
If you don't like what a company pays you, find another job.

Why cloud the issue?

And what of all the people who have to survive in this world with jobs that pay so little?

And why do so many of you friends want to end the tax system which attempts to
make the lack of money more manageable for the average worker?

Most actuaries I have read state that flat taxes will shift the actual cost of society on the workers
even more than the current graduated model.

Originally posted by Mikeyy

Your job at Taco bell wouldnt suck so bad if the government didnt spend us into oblivion and depreciate the dollar so much.

There is no connection there.
A simple example
A shop buys 10 Widgets for 1$, sells them for 2$, makes 10$ profit. The owner gives you 5$, so he doesnt have to hand out widgets all day.

10 years later: The widgets now cost 2$, the shop sells them for 4$, makes 20$ profits, and pays you 5$, because that is the minimum wage, and you won't go on strike anyway, and there are 10 suckers who would do it for 4$, just so they won't starve to death.

10 years ago your 5$ bought you 2 widgets, now you only get 1. But that's not the reason why your job sucks now, and didn't suck 10 years ago. The problem is that you couldn't negotiate for your wage to keep up with inflation.

Originally posted by mastahunta

And what of all the people who have to survive in this world with jobs that pay so little?

Then those people need to either live within their means or advance themselves so that they earn more.

And why do so many of you friends want to end the tax system which attempts to
make the lack of money more manageable for the average worker?

Taking money from others who work (taxes) and giving it to people who don't have as much is wealth redistribution.

Most actuaries I have read state that flat taxes will shift the actual cost of society on the workers
even more than the current graduated model.

Really? Making things fair and equal across the board is abhorent to you?

I can imagine how some would find paying equally a terrible idea. With the mind-set of many in this day and age, getting something for nothing is more the norm.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Cassius666

 

If the communists and leftists were truly for the worker, then they'd fight for less taxes taken from the worker.

But they aren't. They could give a damn. They want power. They want larger government.

Then maybe they are not what they are saying (communists). True communists want 100% equal power and no more benifits for themselves than for their neighbour. To want more power or resources than deserved is the way of capitalism and slavery. You are right that people that have low wages should not be paying taxes at all. Paying extreamly low wages to people so that they have to work all the time and still having it hard to keep their heads over the water is economic slavery. True communism is a higher ideal society and will be implemented for real when the people are enlightened enough to not take advantage of the system and work for higher ideals and not for their egos. Unfortunatly we have probably thousands of years more evolving until the common man is able to really understand Carl Marx, Jesus, Buddhas, Gandis way of thinking and following it and ignoring the ego corruption that can give him/her what he/she want faster in the short run but destroy everything in the long run. Namaste.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by mastahunta



Then those people need to either live within their means or advance themselves so that they earn more.

What you are ignoring is that this trend of continually lowering the means for the majority
of people is unsustainable. Why can't people demand better wages? Why are you always
for management/elites and the big guy? In every equation you think top down, I see it
consistently with you and your gang. Guess what? You make sure the little guy is earning
well, guess who takes his money anyways? Thats right, the big guy will see an increase in
profit, if the little guy has more to spend each month. Prove that wrong.

Taking money from others who work (taxes) and giving it to people who don't have as much is wealth redistribution.

Making money out of thin air and lending it to people who actually WORK to earn their money is
exactly what constitutes the backbone of this economy, so do talk to me about redistribution.
That is goofy, it like worry about the fire pit and sanctioning the forest fire with your silence.

Really? Making things fair and equal across the board is abhorent to you?

Fair and Equal?

What is fair and equal about getting free money based upon your position and then charging
people compounded interest based upon a title and a large reserve of cash? I am done with
pretending that I don't see this farce for what it is, you are talking as if we are all hanging back
in a Disney Movie. You damn well know this whole this is a scam, but you make believe everything
A ok so long as it benefits the ideas you think are equatable. Look around you man;
This country is about as equal as a bean stock with DDD boobies

I can imagine how some would find paying equally a terrible idea. With the mind-set of many in this day and age, getting something for nothing is more the norm.

Are you talking about bankers? or what?

No... Of course not, you are talking about the people who actually have to stand on their feet and work
yet can't afford to see a fricking doctor when they are sick, even though they work as long or longer than
the banker who does nothing but put this country into further debt and future servitude.

Originally posted by Mikeyy
As it's already been said, Every living example of a communist/Leftest society, has resulted in big goverment, and the loss of personal freedoms.

With Government spending out of control till the point said government simply collapses.

Years ago I got into a fight with a liberal who argued tooth and nail that Communism was the way to go. When I offered the examples of the Soviet Union and China, he just choose to ignore them as not being "true" Communist Societies.

It's very easy to fight and argue your personal veiw with you choose to deny all the facts all day long...

yes Democracy has some serious flaws, but it really beats the hell out of everything else. We seriously need to STOP our goverment from expanding and controlling everything.

Your job at Taco bell wouldnt suck so bad if the government didnt spend us into oblivion and depreciate the dollar so much.

taco bell is a bad example, but say a grocery store. In the 70's working in a grocery store was Considered good money. So much so that in some cases you had to know somebody to get a job there.

As if the higher ideal utopian communism have been implemented in the world . True communist ideal is that you are working for the benifit of all in the society with no thought of your own power/ego. It is about working and doing your part for the greater good while not parasiting on your fellow man. Power was never moved to the people in China or Soviet because the pyramid of power where a few decides what should happen to the many was still there. The pyramid of power is faulty and whatever you call the society it is not equal as long as it exists. Power can be thru political decree or money but it is still the same crapy society. You can belive that you have experianced democracy but from my point of view you have not. It is nice calling something something ideal but at the same time not having to uphold the utopian ideal. The poleticians sell a dream but do not implement it in reality.

Originally posted by The Old American

Originally posted by ldyserenity
reply to post by Cassius666

 

I don't know I apply to these jobs and ask for 10.50 an hour...they have the right to not call me, or they have a right to negotiate, I have the right to tell them to stick their job too, if they want to pay me too low.
Oh yeah but that's another "leftist" thing, refusing to take crappy pay and waiting until someone actually will pay you what you are worth...

I'd rather have not two pennies to rub together than lower myself to working at Burger King or Taco Bell...I guess I just have an "entitlement" issue.

edit on 14-1-2012 by ldyserenity because: holy BEEP gd

Yes, you do. And the first step is admitting you have a problem. Assuming you're unemployed because you refuse to demean yourself by making an honest wage, who's paying for your living expenses? Us. Way to contribute to society.

/TOA

It's a give and take from my point of view and we might have a better world if some parts of the so called society that exists did not exist or was at least not as parasitic and monopolic. Sometimes it is not the person/persons that is the problem but the system that have been built up. Just because you are alone in thinking something do not make the majority right. If it was then this planet would have been flat . Everyone has a limit to the crap we are able to accept in this corrupted world and I applaud ldyserenity for knowing her value and not putting up with economic slavery. The best way to change this system would be if everyone got feedup and just would not continue to play the stupid game. Money only have their value because we let us be controled by them. But the propaganda machine have done it's job to well and we should sacrefice ourselves for the corperate machinery without getting the benifits (yeeh right). I deserve exactly one amount off purchasing power from my work. Neither less nor more. I do not want to be a parasite/slave owner of another man nor do I want to be a slave to somebody else. One day we all get what we deserve according to Karma. That is very scray for some and very nice for others . Namaste