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Jesus Was Not Religious, so why hate Christians because of what religion has done?

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posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 08:41 AM
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reply to post by Ravenheart
 


Oops, did I just throw a wrench into your


This idea has been around for quite a while, but this idea lacks historical credibility.


idea?


Chocolate rabbits and eggs are not mentioned in the bible, but I'm aware of the Pagan parallels to the imagery.


Of course christianity parallels paganism. Many parts of christianity are based on/stolen from paganism.




posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon

Correct!!

but God has no reason to use such petty emotions...

Hate is a product of the human experience... God is above such things...



God is above all things, including the need to be worshipped or "followed."

"God" is also above such things as being a deity. When all things were created, that which made up all things, came from "god." I am as much god as the grass growing in my yard, or the ant digging a hole beneath that grass, or the magma miles beneath them. Energy is what makes us, what joins us, what gives us this power.



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 09:03 AM
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reply to post by RevelationGeneration
 


You are going to get a lot of heat for this thread my friend but I agree with you 100%. A person can be 'spiritual' and not 'religious'. I myself am also a disciple of Christ. I follow his teachings because they to me seem good and right. I don't think that this modern-day religious establishment called the church is what Christ would have wanted. His message was a message of love and forgiveness but most people dont truly understand that. I think Thomas Jefferson said it best when he said ''My conscience is my Church."



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

Actually God is only love. In human terms love does not require love in return. I can love my wife as much as I want but she has the choice to love me back.

God is not hate but he did create the ability for us to hate. He gave us the choice, freewill. We have 2 choices in everything we do, love, which is following the will of the father, who is love, or sin which is following the will of the flesh.


God possesses the ability to emote wrath. Wrath is not endemic in love... at all.



God never made anyone choose sin; we have always been more than happy to peruse the love of our flesh. Just because God gave us the choice to choose him or ourselves does not make him hate, it actually proves that he is love. Because he loves us unconditionally even when we don’t choose him. If God does hate, he hates that we destroy ourselves by sin rather than seek him.


God instructed man not to mess with the tree in the Garden, then left us in the garden to be tempted. Mankind had no sense of either death, consequence, or sin, yet he left us to discover these things, and then banished us for an eternity for this single mistake (sin). He never made us choose sin, but he never taught us it was a choice.



We are idolaters, we chase after the bigger car, bigger house, fancier clothes. We have made our material possession more valuable than our spiritual possessions. God hates that we love what we have created more than we love the creator. This also explains his jealousy. He is jealous that we love the created more than the creator.


God, if you believe in a higher "being", wouldn't care for such narcissistic fare. He wouldn't need, nor want to be worshipped. Those are petty human desires. I've stated this multiple times.

Good job avoiding my query into the archeological evidence you were speaking about.



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 




If God does hate, he hates that we destroy ourselves by sin rather than seek him.
Proverbs:6:16-19 It's pretty clear god does hate and its pretty specific.

reply to post by Akragon
 




Jealousy is a human emotion... Created by us... God has no need for Jealousy...
Exodus 20:5 Exodus 34:14 and there are others that state god is jealous so apparently he has some need of jealousy



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 10:46 AM
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reply to post by FugitiveSoul
 


I am afraid you and many simply don't understand the God in the bible. The God in the bible acts only in love. Every emotion can come from love. But not every emotion does come from love. When the bible talks about God's wrath. God is destroying the physical body because one has become so lost in sin that they are spiritually dead.

And to be quite honest many people need to fear God in this way. I only fear one thing, separation from my father. There is simply nothing else that he could do to me physically that would compare to being separated. And this is what God's wrath, and anger, and jealousy were in the Old Testament. God was telling Israel when you listen to my commands I will be with you and make you prosper, when you don't you have turned your back on me so I will turn my back on you.

This was done out of discipline. Even human fathers discipline their children out of love. So why is it so hard to believe that we were created in his imagine and he also disciplines his children out of love.

Adam and Eve were fully aware that God said not to eat the fruit, and were fully aware of the consequence, which was death. I don't have to commit adultery to know that it is bad, it simply is.

What Adam and Eve were not given was a full understanding of Evil. I may know that adultery is bad, but I may not know exactly how devastating the consequences of my actions are until I do it. That did not mean that I did not know it was wrong.

He doesn’t want us to be idolaters because we become slaves to material possessions. Do you know how many people go to work each day miserable with their job, but can’t quit because they love their possession more than their own self. People actually commit suicide because they can’t see a way out.

Why do you constantly think everything I say points to a God that desires the type of worship that you speak of? My child looks up to me, I am her hero. She listens to me and she desires to please me because I love her. When she does wrong and I discipline her she cries not because I was harsh but because she took herself away from my love. She knows that I will never take my love from her. If one worships God it is only out of love as one is simply trying to show God the love that he shows them.

God, the true God in the bible, is much more human in the terms of love than you understand. But he can only love. So any emotion he has that is not called love comes from love. Man simply hates, without love being the reason. But God does not.

Like I said in the begging, like most you simply do not understand the bible.

The Dead Sea scrolls along with many other finds prove that the stories were written down and preserved within 50-100 years after the death of Christ. And there are many fragments and in some cases whole books that are preserved from this time. It has been proven by archeological evidence that the bible remains unchanged since within 100 years after the death of Jesus. Nothing else from this period in history is as recorded or documented.

edit on 18-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 11:13 AM
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reply to post by vogon42
 





Oops, did I just throw a wrench into your This idea has been around for quite a while, but this idea lacks historical credibility. idea? Chocolate rabbits and eggs are not mentioned in the bible, but I'm aware of the Pagan parallels to the imagery. Of course christianity parallels paganism. Many parts of christianity are based on/stolen from paganism.


Did you read my last post along with the link I sent you? Christianity does not and never has borrowed from paganism. Where are you getting this information and why do you believe it? If you can provide me with fact checked books with proper citations on the subject I may be inclined to believe you. Unless you can do that you're throwing sticks at a brick wall.



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by Ravenheart
 


FugitiveSoul is probably getting his information from good ole' zeitguist.



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 11:29 AM
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reply to post by Ravenheart
 


Did YOU read the link you sent me?


The origins of Christmas go back to before the time of Christ when many ancient cultures celebrated the changing of the seasons. In the northern hemisphere in Europe, for example, the winter solstice,


Wow, the celebration of the solstice.....wonder what religion celebrated the solstice......hummmm....as stated above, it was BEFORE the time of christ.
OK, ya got me.....cant think of where christianity would have taken that holiday from.

BTW: perhaps you could explain the symbolism of the eggs and chocolate rabbits. (because that just seams to scream crucifixion to me)



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by vogon42
reply to post by Ravenheart
 


Did YOU read the link you sent me?


The origins of Christmas go back to before the time of Christ when many ancient cultures celebrated the changing of the seasons. In the northern hemisphere in Europe, for example, the winter solstice,


Wow, the celebration of the solstice.....wonder what religion celebrated the solstice......hummmm....as stated above, it was BEFORE the time of christ.
OK, ya got me.....cant think of where christianity would have taken that holiday from.

BTW: perhaps you could explain the symbolism of the eggs and chocolate rabbits. (because that just seams to scream crucifixion to me)



The Catholic Church is a Pagan Religion that includes some bible passages. This is true and most educated Christians understand this.

The biblical definition of a Christian is a disciple of Christ. Someone who follows the teaching in the bible as the very word of God. Since none of these holidays that you claim are Christian are spoken of in the bible than they remain exactly what they were Pagan Holidays.

Anyone who does not agree with what I am saying is does not know the truth.



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

I am afraid you and many simply don't understand the God in the bible. The God in the bible acts only in love. Every emotion can come from love. But not every emotion does come from love. When the bible talks about God's wrath. God is destroying the physical body because one has become so lost in sin that they are spiritually dead.


What did Job do to deserve his suffering? What did Adam & Eve do to deserve their permanent condemnation by the "lord?" You can't say they broke god's trust, because they had no sense of trust, lies, laws. They were innocents. They didn't understand evil, unless they inherited it from "god."
That's the balance, the yin and yang, the tao. If god is the source of all that is good, then he must, by default be the original source of evil.

Both good and evil are perceptive.



And to be quite honest many people need to fear God in this way. I only fear one thing, separation from my father. There is simply nothing else that he could do to me physically that would compare to being separated. And this is what God's wrath, and anger, and jealousy were in the Old Testament. God was telling Israel when you listen to my commands I will be with you and make you prosper, when you don't you have turned your back on me so I will turn my back on you.

This was done out of discipline. Even human fathers discipline their children out of love. So why is it so hard to believe that we were created in his imagine and he also disciplines his children out of love.


I love my son. I do teach and reprimand him. I do not, however, threaten to send him to hell for an eternity for not worshipping my every desire for me bringing him into this world. See the difference. You're still trying to paint human emotions and traits onto a non-human energy. You're trying to humanize something to help you understand it better. It's a common psychological trait in humans.



Adam and Eve were fully aware that God said not to eat the fruit, and were fully aware of the consequence, which was death. I don't have to commit adultery to know that it is bad, it simply is.


You know adultery is bad through the bible and through learning about it through life. Two people, the first two, would have no knowledge of such things. Again, this is a case of Plato's Cave.


What Adam and Eve were not given was a full understanding of Evil.


They had zero understanding of evil, lies, deceit, law, or sin.



He doesn’t want us to be idolaters because we become slaves to material possessions. Do you know how many people go to work each day miserable with their job, but can’t quit because they love their possession more than their own self. People actually commit suicide because they can’t see a way out.


Have you been in a church lately? Full of gold, expensive goblets, lighting, technology, and fancy windows. Have you been in a pagan church. Take a walk out in the woods and have a seat. That's a pagan church. Don't lecture me on idolization.



Why do you constantly think everything I say points to a God that desires the type of worship that you speak of? My child looks up to me, I am her hero. She listens to me and she desires to please me because I love her. When she does wrong and I discipline her she cries not because I was harsh but because she took herself away from my love. She knows that I will never take my love from her. If one worships God it is only out of love as one is simply trying to show God the love that he shows them.

God, the true God in the bible, is much more human in the terms of love than you understand. But he can only love. So any emotion he has that is not called love comes from love. Man simply hates, without love being the reason. But God does not.

Like I said in the begging, like most you simply do not understand the bible.


As I've said, I love my son. I would never ask that he kneel before me to show his appreciation. I would never tell him that he must follow my teachings and only my teachings, or his soul will be forfeit. Big difference.



The Dead Sea scrolls along with many other finds prove that the stories were written down and preserved within 50-100 years after the death of Christ. And there are many fragments and in some cases whole books that are preserved from this time. It has been proven by archeological evidence that the bible remains unchanged since within 100 years after the death of Jesus. Nothing else from this period in history is as recorded or documented.


Exactly, everything written down about Christ was done so 50-100 years after his alleged death. That would mean that the story was handed down, word of mouth, to those who finally wrote the scrolls.
If pagans can't do this, as you seem to believe, how could Christian scribes pull off such a feat?


edit on 18-1-2012 by FugitiveSoul because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by Ravenheart
 


FugitiveSoul is probably getting his information from good ole' zeitguist.


You mean "zeitgeist?" Either way, you're wrong. I'm living the same spiritual existence that my father lived, as well as his father, and his father, back to before my family left Ireland in the early 1900s, all the way back to the days when my people were building monoliths to the stars.
A few family members have strayed to Christianity from time to time, but they always come back.

Also; Ravenheart wasn't speaking to me. So your entire comment was unwarranted anyway.


edit on 18-1-2012 by FugitiveSoul because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

The Catholic Church is a Pagan Religion that includes some bible passages. This is true and most educated Christians understand this.

The biblical definition of a Christian is a disciple of Christ. Someone who follows the teaching in the bible as the very word of God. Since none of these holidays that you claim are Christian are spoken of in the bible than they remain exactly what they were Pagan Holidays.

Anyone who does not agree with what I am saying is does not know the truth.


I believe you intended this response for Ravenheart.



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 12:00 PM
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reply to post by FugitiveSoul
 


Again you do not understand the bible.

God does not threaten to send his sons and daughters to hell either. He only tells them that they will be disciplined because he loves them.

I am glad that you know what God taught Adam and Eve, although first you don’t really know because you were not there, and second since they were aware of the consequence of death, they must also have been aware of what death was.

I stopped going to church because they do not follow Christ, at least none that I have been to. The building says Christian but they don’t teach anyone to be disciples of Christ. And you are correct people have come to worship the church more than they love God.

I put into human terms the things in the bible that you do not understand, to help you not for my benefit.

I never said Pagan’s can’t do this. I simply said that the evidence suggest that the story that was written down second borrowed from the story that was written down first. You say that it is the other way around. My argument is based on logic, yours is base on faith.



edit on 18-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by vogon42
 





Did YOU read the link you sent me? The origins of Christmas go back to before the time of Christ when many ancient cultures celebrated the changing of the seasons. In the northern hemisphere in Europe, for example, the winter solstice, Wow, the celebration of the solstice.....wonder what religion celebrated the solstice......hummmm....as stated above, it was BEFORE the time of christ. OK, ya got me.....cant think of where christianity would have taken that holiday from. BTW: perhaps you could explain the symbolism of the eggs and chocolate rabbits. (because that just seams to scream crucifixion to me)


I don't think you are hearing me. I'm not disagreeing with you that these practices are Pagan. But the bible does not call for these rituals to be celebrated nor does it mention eggs or chocolate rabbits in any form of imagery. So, why do you keep mentioning it? It has no relation to the context given. YES, Christmas was originally pagan and YES so was Easter. I am NOT disagreeing with this. I am disagreeing, however, with your thoughts that there is a parallel between the crucifixion and said Pagan rituals. No disrespect, but you're like talking to a wall, man.

BTW, "Pagan" is not a religion onto itself. It is a label kindle to a practice. For example, Hinduism is a pagan religion. Polytheistic in nature.

AND AGAIN. Where do you get your information and why do you believe it? Do you read books or only do your "research" on the internet? Like I said before before back up your thoughts in context along with strong citations and I may be inclined to believe you. You have yet to do this. Why not?



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

Again you do not understand the bible.

God does not threaten to send his sons and daughters to hell either. He only tells them that they will be disciplined because he loves them.


You literally sound like a battered wife. "He does it because he loves me." Hell is not a proper punishment for non-worship. EVER!



I am glad that you know what God taught Adam and Eve, although first you don’t really know because you were not there, and second since they were aware of the consequence of death, they must also have been aware of what death was.


Neither were you, but we can assume that since God wanted to keep them away from the tree of "knowledge" that he didn't teach them much.



I stopped going to church because they do not follow Christ, at least none that I have been to. The building says Christian but they don’t teach anyone to be disciples of Christ. And you are correct people have come to worship the church more than they love God.


Again, we are what our majorities make us. The irony is, you're doing the same thing that all of the seperate denominations of Christianity do; you're claiming that your way is the only way. Kinda entertaining actually. You're condemning people left and right for not following the one and only path, and in the same breath are condemning Christians who already do the same thing.



I put into human terms the things, in the bible, that you do not understand, to help you not for my benefit.


I get the bible, and if you could see the metaphor, you'd get it too.



I never said Pagan’s can’t do this. I simply said that the evidence suggest that the story that was written down second borrowed from the story that was written down first. You say that it is the other way around. My argument is based on logic, yours is base on faith.


My knowledge has been drawn on walls and appears on cave paintings, ancients statues, vases, murals, jewelry, etc. You're following the Christ, an alleged man who lived, but there is no archeological evidence to support his existence. You might as well be following the teachings of Tyler Durden for all the proof you have of him being real. This is why the message is important, but the deity and the man are not. I've never disagreed with the message, I've just stated that it's older than Christ's era, meaning Jesus is not the sole path to "heaven." I'm following the new scientific data that supports the idea of a mind created reality, which would undo the need, and at the same time explain the power of "god."
I'll tell you the same thing I told RevGen: You're getting there, but you're not there yet. You're still in the "learning to read" section of the library of knowledge and spirituality (i.e.> the bible), but you've got a ways to go before you're ready to walk the other aisles without someone holding your hand. Maybe that's the metaphor of Adam and Eve; "you've got to walk before your run."



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by Ravenheart
....... YES, Christmas was originally pagan and YES so was Easter. .



Christianity does not and never has borrowed from paganism.


I believe you are confusing yourself.

Or does your version of christianity not celebrate christmas, passover....etc?



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 12:42 PM
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reply to post by vogon42
 


Christianity does NOT call to celebrate these pagan rituals. Because it is NOT in the bible. CHRISTIANS, those who follow Christ, not Christianity the faith itself, do tend to celebrate these Pagan rituals. But since it's not in the Bible how can it have borrowed from Paganism? Again, how can something that is not there borrow from anything at all? And apparently, you think you're the only one that gets to ask questions, but you don't want to answer mine? You are not comprehending your own confusion. I will not answer any more of your questions if you are not willing to answer mine, asked in previous posts. I really wish you the best in your theosophical debacle because philosophically you are lost. I HIGHLY suggest you audit classes on Theology and studying the law of non-contradiction. Maybe even a reading comprehension study...



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by FugitiveSoul
 


You are free to believe what you want. But I did not condemn anyone. All I have done is show you how it is possible that you are wrong.

What I do is only out of love. If I believe that Christ is in you, and I do believe this, so I also believe it would be best for you to know and understand him.

What did I say to you that was not out of love? Is believing in something that I feel is the truth and wanting you to understand it wrong? Because I say that I believe Christ is in you and I pray for you have I shown you anything but love? I have not judged you, hated you, or tried to separate myself from you.

If what you believe causes you to follow the command, love your neighbor than I am your friend. If you choose not to believe what I believe you have the right to that choice. I am not trying to force anything on you, only trying to reason with you. Just as you are trying to reason with me. We do not have to agree for both of us to see our father; we only have to do his will. Love our neighbor.

It is because I have not condemned you, nor have a spoke anything evil towards you, that I know I speak the truth. If I have followed the command of love, which I have, than I have followed Christ.

All of the Christian denominations that I am aware of teach that Christians belong to some exclusive members only club, that somehow they are the only ones who will be saved. This teaching causes them with both their mouths and their hearts to condemn non believers to hell. They have broken the command of God, though shall not Judge, because they have listened to the logic of men.

Again you do not understand the bible. But the truth is even those who think they do, don’t, and they prove this when they break the commands of Jesus. I do not share anything with you that breaks the command of my King, therefore I know I speak only the truth.

edit on 18-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 01:07 PM
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The problem that you and many others have is, you believe that if someone "understands" the bible, that there is no way they would be able to be anything but a Christian, and that's just not the case. We do understand the bible. We just don't agree with it. We may agree with the moral teachings, but that doen't mean we have to accept Christ, or the stories portrayed by the authors of the bible as literal truth. As I've said, these morals have existed for thousands upon thousands of years, and they are endemic to civilization, and just because Christ adopted these ideas, doesn't make them Christian.



edit on 18-1-2012 by FugitiveSoul because: (no reason given)



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