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Jesus Was Not Religious, so why hate Christians because of what religion has done?

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posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 



You might notice that Jesus NEVER said that once he "fulfills" the law, its all over.


He said "I came to fulfill". And when He was departing He said "It is finished".

So He "came to fulfill" the law, and when His ministry was complete He said "It is finished". What else are you confused about?




posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by novastrike81

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

What? Is this the middle-ages again?


I mean Christians have others interpret it for them because they can't think for themselves. Sarcasm unwanted.


Or, we don't read Hebrew and Greek and need the assistance of Lexicons and Concordances. I've never called up another Christian with a tough to understand passage. What are you talking about?



Oh we know trust me, Jesus warned of the wolves and the tares scattered among the wheat. We don't think He was joking when He said that.


How do you know you aren't on the wrong side of the fence looking in?

You pray for and trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide in the scriptures He inspired to be written instead of trusting in oneself to grasp them perfectly with their own reasoning, rationalization and understanding.



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Who's discounting anything.
And which two commands did the Lord give for the New Covenant? There were just two the Lord gave compared to the 613 of the Law.


The Luke quote about Zechariah and Elizabeth which I mentioned refers to a time frame before Jesus was born...and therefore BEFORE the "new covenant". It proves that there were those, other than Jesus who kept the law.
So... what were you saying, again? "No one other than Jesus kept the law perfectly, in the NT or the OT."??





He said His burden was "easy" and His yoke was "light". What were His two commands?

Exactly, so there goes the myth that only Jesus could keep the law.

Now... If the burden was "easy", how did you conclude that Jesus "finished" it on the cross? Why do christians even believe so ?



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 




So He "came to fulfill" the law, and when His ministry was complete He said "It is finished". What else are you confused about?


Just how do you know Jesus meant the law was finished, when he said "it is finished" on the cross?
Perhaps he meant, his mission or his life was finished.
There is nothing in his last words to suggest that the law was finished.



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 02:34 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 



Perhaps he meant, his mission or his life was finished.


Well, His mission was to fulfill the law, He previously said that. When He was speaking about his life being finished He said "into your hands I commit my spirit."

The "it is finished" Christ spoke of was fulfilling the law. The Greek there is "tetelestai" which roughly means "paid in full".


There is nothing in his last words to suggest that the law was finished.


Sorry you feel that way, that's the entire gospel. It means "good news". You're saying the "good news" is that we're all still under the Law of Moses? How is that good news in any way, shape, or form? lol



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 02:38 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 



The Luke quote about Zechariah and Elizabeth which I mentioned refers to a time frame before Jesus was born...and therefore BEFORE the "new covenant". It proves that there were those, other than Jesus who kept the law.
So... what were you saying, again? "No one other than Jesus kept the law perfectly, in the NT or the OT."??


I know who Zechariah was, who are you trying to instruct? Jesus also tells the Pharisees which two commands of God encompass all the other OT laws. And Jesus nails it down later in His ministry. Paul then detail that love is the fulfillment of the law. Love of God, and love of fellow men as oneself. If the law was meant to make men righteous before God how was Adam, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Joseph justified? They were alive and died before the law was ever given. Check out Galatians chapter 5 and Romans chapter 8.



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

Just how do you know Jesus meant the law was finished, when he said "it is finished" on the cross?
Perhaps he meant, his mission or his life was finished.
There is nothing in his last words to suggest that the law was finished.


Perhaps he was talking to the chocolate rabbit?


Lets face it, we all know the easter thing was stolen from paganism.



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

Just how do you know Jesus meant the law was finished, when he said "it is finished" on the cross?
Perhaps he meant, his mission or his life was finished.
There is nothing in his last words to suggest that the law was finished.


Perhaps he was talking to the chocolate rabbit?


Lets face it, we all know the easter thing was stolen from paganism.


The whole story of Christ, his message, his birth, life, death, and resurrection, were borrowed from Paganism, but they don't wanna hear that. It pains them to know that the "Easter" bunny and Christmas trees are older than Christ, just as it pains them to know that Christ's message and "sacrifice" wasn't his own, it was borrowed.



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 06:43 PM
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The whole story of Christ, his message, his birth, life, death, and resurrection, were borrowed from Paganism, but they don't wanna hear that. It pains them to know that the "Easter" bunny and Christmas trees are older than Christ, just as it pains them to know that Christ's message and "sacrifice" wasn't his own, it was borrowed.


This idea has been around for quite a while, but this idea lacks historical credibility. The closest parallel to the story of Christ dates over 200 years post Jesus' life. (The Life of Apollonius by Philostratus) Furthermore, most historical scholars have come agree that this was in reaction against Christianity. In fact, most scholars, despite personal subjective views, agree that this idea is too flawed to argue. If you notice most debates to discredit Christ tend to be philosophically based and not historically. This is because the bible is historically sound even if you don't agree with it's theological viewpoints. To this day there has yet to be discovered archaeological evidence that proves the contrary.

Research CREDIBLE and EDUCATED sources informed on the subject of Christianity, atheist in belief or otherwise, and they will disagree with your statement.

It is said that there is no better way to discount Christianity than to discount his witness, which is what you have attempted to do here. I mean you no disrespect, but what you have said is not true.

I would, however, like to close with this. Where and how were you educated on this idea? And makes you believe that this is in fact true?
edit on 17-1-2012 by Ravenheart because: typo



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 06:52 PM
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reply to post by Ravenheart
 



Oh no....dont get me wrong.!!!

Its obvious to all of us how eggs and chocolate rabbits just scream crucifixion. (yes this is sarcasm)

(perhaps if you study....some day you will realize the roots of your religion)



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by vogon42
 


They don't. Your sarcasm does not make your point. And you question if I'm studied. I will admit that I'm not as studied as I would like to be on the subject, but I am pretty educated, and I'm pursuing my Masters in Theology. I hardly think I'm stupid. In order to make your point you would have to comment in relation to the source material your discussing, which you are not. Chocolate rabbits and eggs are not mentioned in the bible, but I'm aware of the Pagan parallels to the imagery.

Here's a pretty good link on the origins of Christmas with a list of sources.

Origins of Christmas



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 09:20 PM
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reply to post by FugitiveSoul
 


You know FugitiveSoul I know that you are set in your beliefs, but I wish that you would be open to the fact that archeology does not support your claim that anything that you believe actually predates Christ. There is no evidence to support any of the Pagan teachings that you claim the bible steals from predate Christ. Just because a book written in 1000 AD claims that its origin predates Christ does not make it so.

Also there is a concept that you will not find in your Pagan religions. The Christian version of being born again of the spirit. This concept is not the act of physical death and rebirth. The bible teaches of two different Spirits that can indwell the Human, actually 3 if you count Satan.

The first is the one that all who know love are born with, and that would be the son. The second is only given to those who repent and have faith. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is different than the indwelling of the son. The son teaches us to love. The Holy Spirit teaches us the wisdom of God and provides us gifts that you can’t understand. No one can understand the Holy Spirit unless the spirit dwells in them.

You think that you have this knowledge but I promise that there is a gift that you can’t receive without believing in Christ. If I had not received the gift myself I could not make the statement that I make.

When someone is born of the Holy Spirit I promise they will not believe that they have found anything of value here on earth. The only thing of any value is the salvation of our brothers. Everything else could be considered idolatry. There is no material possession that has any value. There is only fellowship and the longing to be with the father.

Please understand that by your words I acknowledge that we are brothers, but I still feel compelled to pray for you that you may understand where the bible and the gift of the Holy Spirit simply destroy the logic of men. The father has a gift for you but you must seek it. All who seek it will find it.



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 10:15 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

You know FugitiveSoul I know that you are set in your beliefs, but I wish that you would be open to the fact that archeology does not support your claim that anything that you believe actually predates Christ. There is no evidence to support any of the Pagan teachings that you claim the bible steals from predate Christ. Just because a book written in 1000 AD claims that its origin predates Christ does not make it so.


Please read something other than the bible, search through the history of paganism, read about "pre-christian" traditions and beliefs and you'll start seeing a pattern. The "egg" has long been a symbol of rebirth in most cultures before Christ ever walked the earth. As I said, read.



Also there is a concept that you will not find in your Pagan religions. The Christian version of being born again of the spirit. This concept is not the act of physical death and rebirth. The bible teaches of two different Spirits that can indwell the Human, actually 3 if you count Satan.


Many pagan societies had spiritual "rebirth" rituals and traditions, including the Mayans, ancient Sumerians, and several tribes throughout ancient Africa and Asia Minor. There are more, but you get the point.
Also, I've said this once, but it begs repeating; satan is a word not a being or demon, and before you make the same mistake RevelationGeneration made, Lucifer isn't that third spirit either.



The first is the one that all who know love are born with, and that would be the son. The second is only given to those who repent and have faith. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is different than the indwelling of the son. The son teaches us to love. The Holy Spirit teaches us the wisdom of God and provides us gifts that you can’t understand. No one can understand the Holy Spirit unless the spirit dwells in them.


Research the ancient Persian Holy Trinity.



You think that you have this knowledge but I promise that there is a gift that you can’t receive without believing in Christ. If I had not received the gift myself I could not make the statement that I make.


You assume "Christ" is the only way to achieve knowledge, heaven, the gift. You have zero evidence to support your claim while those of us who know better have seen and experienced heaven here and now. It's not an opinion, it's an experience.



When someone is born of the Holy Spirit I promise they will not believe that they have found anything of value here on earth. The only thing of any value is the salvation of our brothers. Everything else could be considered idolatry. There is no material possession that has any value. There is only fellowship and the longing to be with the father.


So your "god" would label your children, loved ones, and experiences as worthless? Are you sure you're actually worshipping god, and haven't been tricked into giving away your happiness and love for some false idol? Sounds that way to me.



Please understand that by your words I acknowledge that we are brothers, but I still feel compelled to pray for you that you may understand where the bible and the gift of the Holy Spirit simply destroy the logic of men. The father has a gift for you but you must seek it. All who seek it will find it.


Pray away. Prayer works because it's focused thoughts and energy. New science is beginning to prove its validity, though no god is necessary to answer such calls. The human mind suffices just fine.



I wish that you would be open to the fact that archeology does not support your claim that anything that you believe actually predates Christ.


That last quote of yours is actually from paragraph one of your response, but I figured I'd save it for last.

There is zero evidence that Christ ever lived. Every single thing ever written about the man was done so half a century, or longer, after his alleged death. The person who wrote a large chunk of the bible (Paul) was born in Tarsus, which was the epicenter of Mithraic culture during that time. Mithraism has been documented back to ancient Persia (1,400 BCE) and is where a majority of Christ's stories come from. The rest are overlaps of, or are borrowed from, ancient Egypt, Siberia, Greece, as well as western Europa pagan tribes. Most of Christ's divinity was created by over a hundred years after his alleged death, the earliest claim of divinity being 110 AD. Shouldn't that divinity have been chronicled during his life? Especially if her were as miraculous as you and others claim.
Even if Christ did live, he was just a man, who likely found his message during travels in the far east. Might he of been killed for his beliefs? Sure. Did he rise afterwards? I'm gonna say no. No evidence of that either, and definitely would've been journal worthy, don't you think?



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by FugitiveSoul

Please read something other than the bible, search through the history of paganism, read about "pre-christian" traditions and beliefs and you'll start seeing a pattern. The "egg" has long been a symbol of rebirth in most cultures before Christ ever walked the earth. As I said, read.


I have and the only thing that can be proven is such religions predate Christ. What the religions actually taught cannot be proven. I have searched and read everything anyone has ever linked me too. Still no archeological evidence. Only books mostly dated from 500AD and later that claim the same origin. If I rewrite the biblical story changing only the name and dates and call it Greek Mythology does that make it Greek Mythology? Does that prove that the bible stole from Greek Mythology, because I wrote a book today that I claim is Greek Mythology?

Again you are following stories that have no documented evidence that they predate Christ. Since the archeological evidence for the similarities in story are from post Christ, the most logical answer is that these religions adopted Christ.




same mistake RevelationGeneration made, Lucifer isn't that third spirit either.



I am well aware that Lucifer is not the same sprit as Satan although both were cast out of Heaven. Lucifer was cast out of heave several thousand years before Satan I believe.




So your "god" would label your children, loved ones, and experiences as worthless? Are you sure you're actually worshipping god, and haven't been tricked into giving away your happiness and love for some false idol? Sounds that way to me.



I said the only thing that is meaningful is the salvation of my brothers. With this my children and loved ones are included as my brothers. I do not believe that the salvation of my family members is more important than the salvation of anyone else. I actually worry less about the salvation of my family because they have accepted the truth and already believe in, by actions not just words, Jesus Christ the son of God.

What I know is that all love comes from the father through the son. Since I am connected to both I am filled with what the bible calls joy. Love is an emotion that one feels for someone. Joy is an emotion that comes from within.

The bible best describes the joy brought by the Holy Spirit as living water. Welling up in you so that you never thirst again. No one can take the joy away from me because it comes from an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The joy is something that no one can explain, it can only be felt.
edit on 17-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 17 2012 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

I have and the only thing that can be proven is such religions predate Christ. What the religions actually taught cannot be proven. I have searched and read everything anyone has ever linked me too. Still no archeological evidence. Only books mostly dated from 500AD and later that claim the same origin. If I rewrite the biblical story changing only the name and dates and call it Greek Mythology does that make it Greek Mythology? Does that prove that the bible stole from Greek Mythology, because I wrote a book today that I claim is Greek Mythology?

Again you are following stories that have no documented evidence that they predate Christ. Since the archeological evidence for the similarities in story are from post Christ, the most logical answer is that these religions adopted Christ.



Almost all of pagan tradition was passed down through story or song. They didn't document their tales. That's the reason the books written about paganism are "new." They're trying to chronicle the knowledge before it's lost forever. For instance, in Finland, there's a man (or at least there was), who was one of two people left in the world who could recite the old poems from thousands of years ago. They were passed down to him from his father, and he learned from his father, and on and on. They're trying to record these poems, which tell the ancient stories before these two men die, both of whom are very old, and these poems are lost forever.

I'm still waiting for this archeological proof of Jesus and his divinity.




I am well aware that Lucifer is not the same sprit as Satan although both were cast out of Heaven. Lucifer was cast out of heave several thousand years before Satan I believe.



Wrong. Lucifer was not a fallen angel. That's a Christian creation. Before Christian scribes tarnished the name, Lucifer was the name of Venus. Satan means adversary. It's a word, not a name, not a devil, not a being. If I'm playing chess, the person sitting across from me is a satan. Abrahamic faiths, particularly Judaism, painted several foes or "adversaries" as satans, but they weren't specific to a particular being, they were merely illustrating that these beings were adversaries of god.





I said the only thing that is meaningful is the salvation of my brothers. With this my children and loved ones are included as my brothers. I do not believe that the salvation of my family members is more important than the salvation of anyone else. I actually worry less about the salvation of my family because they have accepted the truth and already believe in, by actions not just words, Jesus Christ the son of God.

What I know is that all love comes from the father through the son. Since I am connected to both I am filled with what the bible calls joy. Love is an emotion that one feels for someone. Joy is an emotion that comes from within.

The bible best describes the joy brought by the Holy Spirit as living water. Welling up in you so that you never thirst again. No one can take the joy away from me because it comes from an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The joy is something that no one can explain, it can only be felt.


If God is love, then he is also hate. If he is the source of love, he must also be the source of hate. That's the balance. Personally, I like to take responsibility for the love of my son. I don't need a deity to provide that emotion for me.



edit on 17-1-2012 by FugitiveSoul because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 01:36 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 




The "it is finished" Christ spoke of was fulfilling the law. The Greek there is "tetelestai" which roughly means "paid in full".


Jesus fulfilled the law. Yes.
He also said he was not here to destroy it. So just where did christians get the idea that the law got done with after Jesus fulfilled it?

At no point did Jesus ever say that the law is "over" once he fulfills the law perfectly.



I know who Zechariah was, who are you trying to instruct?


That bit about Zechariah was in response to your earlier claim that "No one other than Jesus kept the law perfectly, in the NT or the OT."

So do you still think Jesus was the only one who kept the law perfectly?



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 01:41 AM
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reply to post by FugitiveSoul
 



If God is love, then he is also hate. If he is the source of love, he must also be the source of hate. That's the balance. Personally, I like to take responsibility for the love of my son. I don't need a deity to provide that emotion for me.


Correct!!

but God has no reason to use such petty emotions...

Hate is a product of the human experience... God is above such things...




posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 02:05 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Yes Jesus was the only one to keep the law perfectly. Although many were considered blameless under the law, they had not truly learned how to love God or their neighbor by observing the written code.

It was not until Christ taught what loving truly looked like. Being willing to die on the cross, proving both that he loved the father enough to be subject to crucifixion and also that he loved his enemy enough to forgive them on the cross. This kind of love is perfect, a love that all of us should aspire to but one that none of us are likely to perfect.



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 02:15 AM
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Originally posted by FugitiveSoul

If God is love, then he is also hate. If he is the source of love, he must also be the source of hate. That's the balance. Personally, I like to take responsibility for the love of my son. I don't need a deity to provide that emotion for me.


edit on 17-1-2012 by FugitiveSoul because: (no reason given)


Actually God is only love. In human terms love does not require love in return. I can love my wife as much as I want but she has the choice to love me back.

God is not hate but he did create the ability for us to hate. He gave us the choice, freewill. We have 2 choices in everything we do, love, which is following the will of the father, who is love, or sin which is following the will of the flesh.

God never made anyone choose sin; we have always been more than happy to peruse the love of our flesh. Just because God gave us the choice to choose him or ourselves does not make him hate, it actually proves that he is love. Because he loves us unconditionally even when we don’t choose him. If God does hate, he hates that we destroy ourselves by sin rather than seek him.

We are idolaters, we chase after the bigger car, bigger house, fancier clothes. We have made our material possession more valuable than our spiritual possessions. God hates that we love what we have created more than we love the creator. This also explains his jealousy. He is jealous that we love the created more than the creator.

Each of these emotions still have the root in love, the unconditional love of the father, who knows and wants what is best for us.


edit on 18-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 02:30 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Jealousy is a human emotion... Created by us...

God has no need for Jealousy... especially since everything... including that Car/tv you desire is also a product of his creation...

And you will return to him either way... why would he care about your desires in this experience?




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