3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

reply to post by HangTheTraitors


I wasn't aware that only one part of a discussion gets to define reality for all parts of a discussion.

I thought all threads on ATS were to support DENIAL OF IGNORANCE.

For many of us . . . REINCARNATION is a farcical fantasy seducing folks

AWAY FROM REALITY

AND

INTO IGNORANCE.

If folks on one side of an issue wish to sit around and slap each other on the back about how brilliant and 100% correct they are . . . I suppose that's conceivable that they could do such a thing.

I don't see that as DIALOGUE about the issues began with the OP.

That sounds more like blather from one perspective, to me.

Originally posted by alfa1

Originally posted by WWu777
No skeptic can debunk them.

The James Leininger story is debunked here...
link

At 18 months old, his father, Bruce Leininger, took James to the Cavanaugh Flight Museum in Dallas, Texas, where the toddler remained transfixed by World War II aircraft.

what type of plane he was flying in his dreams, and he said it was a “Corsair.”
After vigorously checking into the squadron’s aircraft action records, [James’ father] found out that Huston was shot down in a FM2 Wildcat fighter plane – not a Corsair.

edit on 14-1-2012 by alfa1 because: (no reason given)

That's how something is debunked?I believe that's someones opinion,nothing more

I used to think it may be due to a collective conciousness, some of these stories, however, that doesn't explain the focus on the one individual, I could access the collective and find anything on anybody living or dead (What really surprises me is the fact that none of the individuals are very well known people) so they're random individuals that the person focuses on. That is either some kind of kindred bond or reincarnation. Maybe the former may be the latter, guess we won't know until we die.

This might sound weird but....

What if its like the recycling of atoms/molecules or what ever we are made of, what im trying to say is we probably have molecules from past people, animals, vegetables anything that has lived and died in us, they like to say we are made of star dust.

And maybe sometimes right molecule gets in right spot maybe within our brain that can remember or produce memories or feelings from another time or place.

I hope that made sense, i used the term atom and molecule cause i dont know exactly what tiny tiny stuff we are made up off

BTW i'd love to believe in whole spirit thing but its probably as simple as " from dust we came and to dust we'll go" maybe replace dust with molecule I saw someone got cranky previously about bible stuff but i say that quote purely scientifically.

Reincarnation has been scientifically proven by the work of Dr Ian Stevenson who documented thousands of cases of children without hypnosis or any other possible means of the child knowing the things they knew other then them being that person recognizing former siblings, places they lived birth marks corresponding with the wounds that killed them, circumstances and even intimate things with former spouses a child could not know etc etc. Fascinating and rock solid research.

reluctant-messenger.com...

reply to post by hawkiye


Proven . . .

as what, exactly?

i.e. proven that WHAT exactly is going on?

I've offered

TWO

OTHER

explanations for the phenomena observed.

I don't see how the Doc could distinguish between the options with his strategy of "proof."

Opinion and wishful thinking

ARE NOT PROOF.

reply to post by BO XIAN


I agree with you Bo. I too believe that it is .. Appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgement. So great posts!

There are a few other good posts in here as well, in that the evil entities have always been around . So , yes, they would and DO know details of the past and can pass this info on to cause deception of many.

The world is sO full of deception.... we alll need to be careful.
Put on the whole armor folks!
My 2cts..

Originally posted by BO XIAN
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Proven . . .

as what, exactly?

i.e. proven that WHAT exactly is going on?

I've offered

TWO

OTHER

explanations for the phenomena observed.

I don't see how the Doc could distinguish between the options with his strategy of "proof."

Opinion and wishful thinking

ARE NOT PROOF.

You've offered pseudo science and a theological argument. You'll have to do better than that.

Originally posted by BO XIAN
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Proven . . . as what, exactly? i.e. proven that WHAT exactly is going on? I've offered TWO OTHER explanations for the phenomena observed. I don't see how the Doc could distinguish between the options with his strategy of "proof." Opinion and wishful thinking ARE NOT PROOF.

Nor are your two convoluted explanations. Your allusion to the Many Worlds theory of Hugh Everett is simply irrelevant and no connection whatsoever with someone remembering a past life years ago. Your first explanation is a tortured mass of words that really doesn't mean anything substantive. Given those two "explanations" reincarnation seems mundane and prosaic, and a whole lot easier. Look up Occam's Razor. Apply it.

Originally posted by BO XIAN
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Proven . . .

as what, exactly?

i.e. proven that WHAT exactly is going on?

I've offered

TWO

OTHER

explanations for the phenomena observed.

I don't see how the Doc could distinguish between the options with his strategy of "proof."

Opinion and wishful thinking

ARE NOT PROOF.

Maybe if you actually read some of the Docs 30 years of research you might understand the scientific criteria he used to rule out all other explanations instead of just knee jerking your emotional belief and dismissing anything that does not agree with you out of hand. And of course you could always pick a few of his case studies and point out why he is wrong. Your explanations are simply speculation based on emotional attachment to your belief.

reply to post by SeekerLou


Here is an interesting read on reincarnation in the bible that talks about the scripture you partially quoted and its context etc... www.freeread.com...

reply to post by hawkiye


Hi and thank you for the link. I disagree with this and would like to respond with this one.

www.godonthe.net...

If this does not make sense to you and you do not agree. Then I will agree to disagree .
Seriously, check it out. *It speaks of McClain, and several others.

Speaking with/or from my faith: No one will ever have the proof until they stand before the Lord Himself . Then they will know.

reply to post by SeekerLou


Hi and thanks I took a look a the site and have some comments:

Incarnation is the process of a soul entering a fetus at some point before birth.  Most religions, including Christianity, believe that this occurs

www.godonthe.net...

I agree that modern Christianity believes this however it is not taught anywhere in the Bible. The only thing in the bible that mentions when man becomes a living soul is in Genesis 2:7

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his
nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

He became a "living soul" when the breath of life entered into him. Of course,
the breath of life enters into a baby when he is born and takes a breath, not
before. The vision in Ezekiel 37:1 also follows this logic. Ezekial saw a vision of
the dead bones of Israel coming back to life. Note in the point in the story
that they were considered living is when the "breath" has entered in to them"

I know many Christians will disagree with this and it is not my intention to argue when life begins however the reason I point this out is to show that many beliefs that are claimed to be based on biblical principles really are not taught in the Bible.

Karma is another core doctrine collateral to reincarnation.  Karma is essentially a "spiritual track record."

Karma is also taught in the Bible quite extensively. The article explanation is close but a bit over simplified as karma is also known as cause and effect and everything you do or cause to happen has an effect on you as well as other sooner or later... Most can look at thier lives and agree with this however it extends to past lives as well and that is where folks have a hard time often. Ecclesiastes 11:1 "cast your bread on the water and it will return to you a hundred fold" Essentially everything you do has a consequence good or bad and returns to you eventually. This is where all the concepts of sin and punishment come from also. This also answers the questions of why some seemingly good people have such bad luck in life. If the above scripture is true then it would have to extend to past lives as well since people do not see "everything" they have done return to them in this life. However they do see many things that do. They may be paying off some Karma from a past life when they weren't such good people to learn what it is like to be on the receiving end of what they may have dished out to others so as not to do it again in this life or future lives etc.

The Bible does not expressly talk about "reincarnation."  However, it makes it clear that "you only go around once in life."
Hebrews 9:27-28  [27] Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, [28] so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

www.godonthe.net...
I find it interesting that the scripture oft quoted to say there is no reincarnation has Christ appearing "a second" time. ;-) I know Christians believe this is some magical reappearance and do not really consider it another incarnation however it is a bit ironic. The other thing is the principle of Baptism metaphorically teaches the doctrine of reincarnation as you die and are "born again". Again I know this is just considered a spiritual rebirth however why use such a strong metaphor for rebirth? ;-)
Another scripture often used is: John 9:4 "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night comes, when no man can work."
This seems to be black and white literally except that is it an interesting metaphor because we all know traditionally work was not done at night for various reason probably the main reason was lack of light. I simply ask Christians what comes after every night? Why another day of course! This completes the metaphor! And of course in this day and age where we have modern lighting much work is performed at night too. This to me is a metaphor for the progression of the race where we can now work through the night, and recognize after every night is another day to perform more work. This is a powerful metaphor for reincarnation in my opinion.

Continued on the next post...

reply to post by SeekerLou

Continued from above:

Lets look further at the scriptures:

The “once to die” sounds like an absolute statement not open to debate until we realize that it is boldly contradicted by the Bible itself:  “They (the dead) were judged every man according to their works.  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.  THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast (to suffer a second death) into the lake of fire.”  Rev 20:12-15
The book of Revelations has quotes from John, an angel, and Jesus Christ, all using the phrase “second death” so we know there has to be one.  Thus it is quite obvious that if Paul were writing the truth he did not literally mean “once to die” except perhaps once per lifetime, or that  there is one general mortality passed upon all mankind.

There are other scriptures that are deceptive if they are taken literally: 

Paul :  “I die daily.”  I Cor 15:31 He also said:  “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience…It is a shame for women to speak in the church.”  I Cor 14:34-35  Paul also advised the saints to remain single as he was (I Cor 7:7) and if they were married to not have sex (I Cor 7:29).
Jesus also told us to cut off our right hand if it offends us (Matt 5:30) and talked about making oneself a eunuch (literally a castrated person) for the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 19:12)

www.freeread.com...
How come no Christians take these so literally? I think you get the point ;-)
And this commentary from the site I referenced pretty thoroughly dispels the myth that the Bible preaches against reincarnation:

Let us examine the verse that precedes the “once to die” scripture:  “But now once in the end of the world hath he (Christ) appeared to put away sin by sacrifice of himself.”  Heb 9:26
If we read this verse literally we are led to believe that Jesus appeared only once at the end of the world to sacrifice him self.  Two thousand years has passed since then so those who thought Paul was talking about the real “end of the world” were wrong. Also, Jesus did not appear once  but appeared many times to many people.
To interpret this  scripture accurately one has to read it in its correct context as well as examine the Greek from which it was translated.
In examining the Greek we find that the word “world” is a mistranslation.  It comes from the word AION.  The modern English word “eon” is derived from this and it means “an age”.  Thus we see that Jesus came once at not the end of the world, but the end of the age. We realize that his “one” coming refers to his general life (with all his numerous appearances counted as one) at the end of one age and the beginning of a new one.
Here we see that Hebrews 9:26 cannot be interpreted in a black and white literal manner.  How about the next verse?  Does it mean what it seems to mean?  Are we really appointed only “once to die” or is there more meaning here below the surface?  Are there many deaths within the one death as there were many “comings” within the one general first coming of Christ?  Is it talking about physical death or spiritual death?  If it is talking about spiritual death, then that would leave open the possibility of more than one physical death.
In examining this scripture there are three words that are generally overlooked:  “men”, “but”, and “judgment”.  We’ll quote this scripture one more time emphasizing  these:   ‘And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”  Men comes from the Greek ANTHROPOS which in this context indicates the human race as a whole.
The word “but” here is quite interesting.  It comes from the Greek ALLA  which literally means  contrariwise.   In other words, it indicates that the information that is forthcoming may contradict that which has just been said.
That would  mean   that “after this the judgment” may have an opposite meaning to “it is appointed unto men once to die”. It would indicate an exception as in the sentence:  “I rise every morning at 8:00 A.M., except when the alarm doesn’t go off.”
“After this the judgment” does not sound like it contradicts or has an opposite meaning to “once to die” so let us look closer to see  what the original language says.  Judgment comes from the Greek  word  KRISIS.  This is one of the most misunderstood words in the entire Bible.  Translators don’t quite seem to know how to handle it and seem to render it according to their bias rather than the actual meaning.  In the King James version they have rendered it:  accusation, condemnation, damnation, and judgment.  These words all have diverse meanings, but none of them are an exact translation.

www.freeread.com...

Continued in the next post...

reply to post by SeekerLou



And moret:

The modern English word “crisis” (which is derived from the Greek KRISIS) is a more accurate rendering than the Bible translations. The actual Greek word implies a decision that brings correction. If it is used in connection with the word “judgment”  the idea of a corrective judgment should be implied.
Another mistranslation in this verse is the phrase “to die”. It is more correctly rendered “to be  dying”.  Let us now take into consideration these corrections and render the verse as close as possible to the Greek:   “And as it is reserved for mankind once tr. be dying, but on the other hand, after this [after the state of dying is over we have] the judgment [or KRISIS the decision to correct the state of death].
The verse could be describing either a spiritual death, physical death or both.
The word KRISIS is used in another very interesting scripture:
“The hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (KRISIS).” John 5:28-29
Notice here that John tells us that there are two resurrections: (1) The resurrection of life, and (2) the resurrection of damnation or KRISIS.
“Damnation” is an incorrect word for translators to use.  The second resurrection should more appropriately be called “the resurrection of correction” or “the resurrection which forces correct decisions”.
The word “resurrection” comes from the Greek ANASTASIS which literally means “to stand up again” or “to come to life again”. The word does not imply that the new life will always be an immortal one as indicated by the following scripture:  “Women received their dead raised to life again (from the same Greek word ANASTASIS): and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection.”  (ANASTASIS) Heb. 11:35.
The reference “women received their dead raised to life again” refers to miracles performed by Elijah and Elisha where the dead were revived to a mortal existence.  Here the word ANASTASIS refers to something other than an immortal life.
Here is another interesting scripture spoken by the Christ years before his resurrection:  “The Son can do nothing of him self, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise…For as the Father RAISETH UP THE DEAD,  and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.”  John 5:19h21
Here we are plainly told that the dead were raised to life again by the power of the Father BEFORE the resurrection of Jesus.
On the other hand Paul said that Jesus was “THE FIRST that should raise from the dead.”  Acts 26:23.
This seems like a paradox.  On one hand we are told that there were resurrections before Jesus and that both the Father and the Son raised up any of the dead that they wished.  On the other hand it is written that Jesus was the first to raise from the dead.  How is this to be explained?
It is quite simple.  There are two resurrections.  Jesus was the first to attain to the resurrection of life.   But the second type of resurrection, the resurrection of KRISIS or correction has been occurring since the beginning.
The resurrection of KRISIS or correction can refer to one being revived to mortal life in the same body as Lazareth was, or it could refer to being “born again” in a new body with a new life experience giving us an opportunity to “correct” our imperfections.
Jesus was not the first to attain the resurrection of KRISIS, but he was the first to gain the resurrection of life.
It was the resurrection of life that Paul spoke of when he said that it was something he had to attain:  “If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after.”  Phil 3:11-12.
Paul indicates that we must be “perfect” to “attain” this resurrection.  He can  only be referring to the resurrection of life for Jesus said that all the evil ones go to “the resurrection of correction”  while they who have done good attain the “better resurrection”.
This makes sense doesn’t it?  We are sent again and again to the resurrection of correction to live life after life on the earth and then when we have corrected our errors and become without sin as was Jesus we “attain” unto the resurrection of “life” and “this mortal must put on  immortality”. I Cor 15:53.
How do we avoid the resurrection of correction?  The Lord tells us:  “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (from KRISIS, the resurrection of correction): but is passed from death unto life.” John 5:24

www.freeread.com...

Continued in the next post....

reply to post by SeekerLou



And the rest:

The scriptures plainly tell  us that by hearing, believing, and doing the words of God so that we are perfected leads to escaping the resurrection of Krisis and “attaining” the resurrection of life.
With this knowledge in mind we can place still another interpretation on Hebrews 9:27:  “And as it is appointed unto men once to die (in this present age), on the other hand after this comes the resurrection of correction” (where we will be born and die again in a future age.)

www.freeread.com...

Hi and thanks for your reply.

Thanks for the link but I feel the site you referred to is sO full of error. If one believes the Bible, it does say that God is NOT the author of confusion. And this I feel is the case.

Believe me, I'm not perfect and have been confused a LOT. lol *I know some of you will say I stILL am but...oh well... that's me - and MY faith.

Appreciate your reading that link I posted. At least you tried to see where I was coming from. That's been my best experience yet Have been attacked and ridiculed for my belief... but that's OK.

I can tell you feel as strongly on the reincarnation topic as I do: for I'm very adament in my beliefs that reincarnation does not happen according to Scripture. That site was very messed up, imo.

I do respect you and your feelings though, as I hope you do or will mine. We all have our own choices. Whether right or wrong - we are accountable.

This subject gets too deep to try to explain.
There are 2 phases in the resurrection of the saints...
First though : Jesus was the Son of God , fulfilling the prophecy, etc. so yes he was resurrected( sinless) after having conquered death and hell after taking upon OUR sin upon Himself . He showed His Triumph over Satan, sin death and Hell which had to be fulfilled ... His plan of Salvation.

The dead OT saints were under the law.... and their death/resurrection is different because Jesus had not come and fulfilled the prophecy yet. There is sO much more to be explained but Scripture does interpret Scripture ..and we must rely upon God's Holy Spirit to teach / lead us. He is faithful and I'll take Him at His Word.

This is a deep subject and only God can show us ANY Truth. He is Light and in Him is No darkness.

Again, I know you feel just as strongly in YOUR belief as I do mine. I may not agree but I do respect peoples right to choice in what they believe. I just care and according to the Bible, I will try to help when I can..

I would never ever TRY to force anything upon anyone. I've seen so many so- called Christians, it's pathetic.
When I first got saved - (trusted Jesus as mY Savior, trusting in His finished work on Calvary), I was excited to share and told a known church lady "I got saved". I was told that I was on probation and that if I died I would go to Hell!!!!. Boy, was I ever surprised to hear this - to find her belief went sO against the Bible. This was a Church of Christ lady.... but that's ANOTHER story ... I feel they are very misled Christians. Not to mention, they don't believe in having worship music . Thank God, He gave me peace.

I read and prayed and found out differently!
Again, God is not the author of confusion.
The ole prince of the power of the air still roams seeking whom he may devour.

Until then.
Let's just say for the both of us... may the one True God , our Father in Heaven, lead and guide us into ALL Truth!

Take care OP. but I am a firm believer in what God says.
It is appointed unto man once to die... after that we face him and give account of our lives. Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
This is final judgement.. ... and not one chance at a reincarnation to get out of it. Ask yourself this, If there is reincarnation , we have more chances, then why is there a FINAL judgment ??

agreeing to disagree.
Take care.

reply to post by kazanoom

You've offered pseudo science and a theological argument. You'll have to do better than that.

Uhhhhhhh . . . how, exactly . . . is the OP stuff MORE credible?

T'ain't as far as I can tell.

And, logically, is a LOT LESS credible given all the givens of multidimensional reality.

reply to post by SeekerLou


No worries SeekerLou to each his own thanks for your amicable responses despite our disagreement. I consider myself a follower of Christ but not a Christian as it has come to mean today. I have been where you are and studied prayed contemplated and sought for many years and I could go much deeper also however I know at this point it would be diminishing returns. I will leave you on a point of agreement and that is yes many Christians do not know what their own scriptures teach. They often repeat rhetoric they have heard over the pulpit or read in some commentary on the scriptures as of the bible but rarely do they drop all preconceived notions and read contemplate and seek the spirit of the actual meaning of the scriptures. Nor do they consider the scriptures were influenced by the men who recorded them and the translators who translated them and are not infallible as seems to be a popular rhetoric today. Anyways nice talking to you.

OP,
you did look at your own video you wanted skeptics to debunk right?
did you watch the 4th video near the end with the psychologist that interviews kids that he wants them to make up stories?
One little girl made up a story that got 13 out of 17 facts right on another little girl that died.

So you just told us to watch something that has someone who gives his reasons to debunk the very thing you claim can't be debunked?

good grief!
If you believe in reincarnation then good for you but don't try and shove something you believe as fact to me with out having a little more proof than he said/she said, I need a little more than stories. These stories to me are just stories and not even worthy of debunking.

I need a story of a little kid to say I buried my treasure here and then when they go dig it up it's there with everything the kid said would be there.