Do you REALLY believe in Jesus?

reply to post by Gigatronix

Here's the problem I have with these types of replies. The believer just assumes that the person is either asking the wrong question, asking in the wrong way, or is somehow not sincere enough to deserve a clear and unmistakable sign.

I didn't assume, i just suggested a possibility...

IF you truely seek God he will give you an "unmistakable sign"... And its rarely something obvious either... its up to you to notice it. And if you do not notice it, then you're not ready...

Myself I have prayed, asked for guidance, told "Him" that I would gladly follow the path of "his" choosing, if he would simply give me an indication(nothing earth shattering) of what "His" will is.

Have you tried meditation?

Its easier to listen to him then to talk to him... Though meditation doesn't come easy... even a little goes a long way...

To date, no responses, no indications, no clues,hints,nothing. Now I'm sure the next "logical" answer would be, that I am not seeing it, because my heart is not open, because the truth should be self evident, it's all around me blah blah blah. I don;t follow that argument, it's lame with excuses.

Some things are true regardless of your belief my friend...

As is the argument that he has a plan for me and it will be revealed at the most appropriate time. Bull. If I reach out sincerely, with an open heart and mind, and the "Word" is universal and timeless and inerrant, then I should receive some kind of response that doesn't require a complete and utter suspension of reason and disregard for reality.

In the absence of a reply, of any kind, to continue talking to what amounts to an imaginary friend is just delusional and out of touch with reality. But thats just me, your mileage may vary.

Believe what you will...

7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Originally posted by charles1952
Dear sacgamer25,

Normally, I would write this in a U2U, but that didn't seem right. I applaud and admire you for your courage and faithfullness. Everyone should have a chance to know the Truth and the Love. Thank you for presenting this chance to many.

I have a little uncertainity in my own heart about the belief-act connection. Yes, I know it's there, and people have spent centuries discussing it. I don't want to start that, I just wanted to say I get a lot of comfort from Paul in the seventh chapter of Romans:

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

"For in my inner being I delight in God's law;" How beautiful.

With respect,
Charles1952

I hope that you take this in the most loving way possible. This is the most out text concept there is in the bible. Paul is taking you through his spiritual journey. What he is talking about here is the time before he had received the grace from God. Let me use pornography as an example. I might know that watching pornography is wrong because it is lust and degrading. I may also want to stop watching it, I may even feel bad about watching it, but for some reason I can't. So you see it is not you that wants to watch pornography but instead is the sinful desire of the flesh at work in you.

Romans must be read as a spiritual journey. If you keep reading after this passage he talks about becoming free from the grips of sin. Please understand what you have been taught, or how you have interpreted directly contradicts not only Christ but the entire book of Hebrews. The same people who defend this interpretation have to say that Christ and Hebrews are not to be taken literally. By my interpretation you can see that everything is in agreement and can be taken literal. I fully believe the spirit lives in you but you have not been baptized by the spirit yet.

The bible was written for both those who have the spirit and those who have been baptized. It is likely all you need to do is except what I am saying and pray that god will free you from sin. You simplify cannot receive what you don't believe is possible. You have been told you will always be a sinner, I am telling you Jesus wants to free you from your sin. What i say is in complete agreement with scripture.

Originally posted by novastrike81

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
So ask him to reveal himself to you and to show you the true messages in the new testament. Make the commitment to know him more and you shall know him more. Don't listen to what other people say, find out for yourself and make your choice.

What happens when he doesn't answer your call when you ask for years (in some peoples cases) or not at all? The lack of an answer gave me the true message.

I think he meant that metaphorically.
We Know God through Jesus, and we know Jesus in the New Testament but there is a spirit which comes from God that can help us understand it a little better maybe but also to be effected by it to where we are somehow better than we were before. That is the important thing, where we all make the world a better place.

Originally posted by novastrike81

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
So ask him to reveal himself to you and to show you the true messages in the new testament. Make the commitment to know him more and you shall know him more. Don't listen to what other people say, find out for yourself and make your choice.

What happens when he doesn't answer your call when you ask for years (in some peoples cases) or not at all? The lack of an answer gave me the true message.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

You have asked, and I'm here to answer your question he is real. Because you ask you have received. What you are waiting for is a sign. But the sign is in you, it is not something you can see. The bible says that all who have love have Christ.

Now it is time to seek. You must trust in those around you who confirm what in your heart you already know. God is love. Anyone who judges and speads hate is speaking from the world, the one who loves is speaking from the father. I am proof and although you can't see me, you would not have replied if something I said didn't make you stop and think. If i am right, when i say that the key to finding God is the love inside you, this should be what somehow you already know.

You have asked, now you must seek. Have faith to read at least the New Testament, pick a translation that is easy for you to read. If you don't understand what you read just highlight it and keep going. The Holy Spirit will teach you. Don't be afraid to ask questions. When you think you understand knock on the door by obeying what you have learned, what you will find is a lot closer to what you speedy know than you light imagine.

reply to post by Gigatronix

In the absence of a reply, of any kind, to continue talking to what amounts to an imaginary friend is just delusional and out of touch with reality.

Could be you already have what you need and you don't need a big jolt to wake you up from a life going straight to hell. Just continue on and don't talk to an imaginary friend and concentrate on practical applications of what you already know.

Originally posted by Akragon


I didn't assume, i just suggested a possibility...

IF you truely seek God he will give you an "unmistakable sign"... And its rarely something obvious either... its up to you to notice it. And if you do not notice it, then you're not ready...

See this is what I'm talking about, the onus is on me to interpret it "correctly", when it should be as obvious as your average believer would have me believe. Because I didn't achieve the result that apparently comes so easily to the faithful, I must not be doing it right. Of course it's my fault that my creator prefers to be obtuse and vague, rather than just say "Hey I'm listening son, how can I help you be the follower I designed you to be". Right.

Have you tried meditation?

Its easier to listen to him then to talk to him... Though meditation doesn't come easy... even a little goes a long way...

Yes I have meditated, and I find that such meditation leads me to believe that there is no god. But I'm probably not doing it right huh?

Some things are true regardless of your belief my friend...

And some things are NOT true regardless of what you believe.

Believe what you will...

I will, and you are free to do the same my friend

reply to post by jmdewey60


I don't really know how to respond to that, so I'll just star your post and say thanks for the vote of confidence...

I think...

reply to post by sacgamer25

Dear sacgamer25, (To anyone else, if I'm speaking a foreign language here, just ignore it. Next post, please)

Thank you. If I can't accept correction, especially correction from a brother, I am useless. You are performing a valuable and scriptural service.

I wish I was able to communicate more clearly through my writing, what a source of trouble it is. Using your comments may I attempt to explain my meaning?

Because I have heard of Jesus, I had to decide what His place was in my life. I was persuaded, by the evidence, and through Grace, that He is indeed the Son of the Creator of the Universe. I am firm in this belief. I accept His words that He is the path to Heaven. With that as a foundation, I don't look for any other "path" to eternal life.

I also believe that He sent the Spirit to us for many good purposes, and that He and the Spirit, and the Father are one. One of these good purposes is to take our "court case" out of the hands of the judges under the old law, that law no longer applies. I am subject to the New Law. Because I am not judged by the old law, I can walk out of that court, free.

Another good purpose of the Spirit is to strengthen, encourage, and teach us. This happened most powerfully in the upper room on Pentecost, but it can happen powerfully in anyone's life.

Combining those purposes, the Spirit allows me to walk out of the court room, free, strong, encouraged, and spiritually close to God. There used to be part of me that always wanted to do the wrong thing. I could fight it for a while, but that kind of "goodness" never lasted. I believe that is the "sinful nature" you're talking about. It's different now, and it's God's doing.

I must make you see however, that I am not perfect. There are times when I get angry, or offend some one, or any number of other failings. These offenses have to mended as well as I can, and I have to try to prevent them from happening again. Not by making resolutions and gritting my teeth, I've tried that. But reducing or preventing them is a process difficult to explain. It involves Jesus, who made it possible for my case to be removed from the old law court, the Father, who is the final judge as well as the Father, and the Spirit, whose work is difficult for me to explain briefly.

I don't care what Jesus' name is, I know who He is.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

Here's the problem with that. its either fiction and you interpret it metaphorically, or its not fiction and you interpret it literally. In either case, since you can't prove any of it to be 100% factual, it remains a work of fiction until you can. And seeing how ya can't, fiction it shall remain.

reply to post by Gigatronix

See this is what I'm talking about, the onus is on me to interpret it "correctly", when it should be as obvious as your average believer would have me believe.

Notice i said its "rarely obvious"...

Why do you believe it should be obvious?

Of course it's my fault that my creator prefers to be obtuse and vague, rather than just say "Hey I'm listening son, how can I help you be the follower I designed you to be". Right.

Why do you think its your fault he prefers not to be obvious?

Unfortunatly i don't make the rules... IF i were God i would make it clear to everyone.... but im not.

Yes I have meditated, and I find that such meditation leads me to believe that there is no god. But I'm probably not doing it right huh?

Perhaps...

what led you to this conclusion?

Its impossible to "meditate" wrong... though some ways are more practical then others in my opinion,,,

And some things are NOT true regardless of what you believe.

Absolutely

reply to post by Gigatronix

Please recall that the Bible is a coillection of different books written by different people. Some are supposed to be the lyrics to songs (Too bad they didn't include the score, I'd love to hear that.) Some were self-improvement guides, throw in a romance, letters to friends in other towns, a lot of complaints and a lot of thank yous among other things.

My position is that the New Testament is not, could not, be fiction. It reported as fact what occured. You don't prove anything in history as fact. It can't be done. There are ATSers who will tell you that the moon landing hasn't been proven. Asking for anything historical to be "proven" is silly. All you can do is collect the evidence and see what the evidence says. You either believe the evidence that says it's "A," or you believe the evidence that says it's "Not A."

Again, no historian ever "proves" anything. You're asking for something that doesn't exist, will never exist, can never exist. You have to reach your own decision. Everyone has to. If you decide it's not valid, what are your reasons?

What evidence do you have that questions the New Testament?

reply to post by Akragon


I say obvious because, when I tell a believer that I am an atheist, they tend to look at me as if I can't tell the sky is blue. The whole world is a testament to gods brilliance how can you not see it?! Every fiber of your being is a expression of Gods love for you and so and so on. I guess I just assumed that since most faithful tend to tell me that I am a fool for not seeing the obvious, that it was obvious to them and that's why they swear up and down that they've got it 100% right. I hear all the time that Gods word is infallible and perfect and understandable by anyone with the will to listen, then why do I not hear it when I'm specifically listening for it?

Why should god be obvious? Because apparently if I miss the signs for the turnoff to heaven IM gonna drive my life right off a cliff into hell. I don't buy into this whole idea of god gave us free will so we can damn or save ourselves, you want me to worship you and spread the word and be a good little boy? Then stop playing high school mind games with me, and light my path so that I might do your will. All this religious mumbo jumbo about "god works in mysterious ways" is just a cop out, you don't know what the hell to do either, you just keep your head down and say your prayers and hope that it's good enough.

reply to post by Gigatronix


I am not here to judge you my friend, and i do not think you're a fool either...

Gods words are infallible, but that depends on what you consider his word... The bible is NOT infallible...

Why should god be obvious? Because apparently if I miss the signs for the turnoff to heaven IM gonna drive my life right off a cliff into hell.

God will not condem his children to Hell... in fact it doesn't exist... there is an afterlife... which is where we all return to.... hell is mearly a fear tactic used for conversion.

All this religious mumbo jumbo about "god works in mysterious ways" is just a cop out, you don't know what the hell to do either, you just keep your head down and say your prayers and hope that it's good enough.

Incorrect my friend...

There are some that understand exactly what God requires of us... sadly very few come from the church world..

Originally posted by charles1952

Please recall that the Bible is a coillection of different books written by different people. Some are supposed to be the lyrics to songs (Too bad they didn't include the score, I'd love to hear that.) Some were self-improvement guides, throw in a romance, letters to friends in other towns, a lot of complaints and a lot of thank yous among other things.

Strike 1. How can you be sure it's all true when so many people with so many agendas and so many motivations had their fingers in it? You can't.

My position is that the New Testament is not, could not, be fiction. It reported as fact what occured.

Strike 2. You don't know that it's factually accurate. You think it is because it supports your bias.

You don't prove anything in history as fact. It can't be done.

. If I can't prove anything, you can't either. In the absence of "proof", you can only go on personal observation. And you weren't around 2000 years ago, so you lack the authority to claim anything from that time period as fact. You can believe it all you like, but to claim that the bible is a work of 100% fact is absurd. The only thing the bible "proves" is that some people wrote some stuff down.

Again, no historian ever "proves" anything. You're asking for something that doesn't exist, will never exist, can never exist.

Strike 3. No historian proves anything, but this is exactly the type of "proof" I see pushed on me all the time." Roman records prove Jesus of Nazareth was a real person" But does it prove that he was the son of god and that he did anything noteworthy?Nope. I would find the confidence in ancient record keepers abilities laughable if we didn't craft modern policy based on it. It really is scary what some people will accept as evidence in their desperate pursuit to be "right".

What evidence do you have that questions the New Testament?

The lack of evidence leads me to believe that the concept of god was created by ignorant peoples that lacked the knowledge to properly describe their reality. As a work of fiction it's a masterpiece, as a record of actual events it's just another in a LONG line of works that claim to be the Truth but fall short.

reply to post by Akragon


Here's another reason I can't be bothered with God and his religions. There are so many variations on what God is and what he's supposed to be about, how can one hope to discover the "Right" one. The sheer variety of Gods and religions that have come to us over the years is a testament that man will create god to his liking. If you find one that "speaks" to you, that's great. But just because it makes perfect sense to you, doesn't make it right for anyone else. Find an "answer" that works for you, and be happy with it. No need for the smug " i got the inside scoop on eternity" attitude. I see athiests doing this too, its really dumb.

FYI I'm not saying you said any of these things or believe any of these things, I'm just talking in general.

reply to post by Gigatronix

I'm sorry, I did not write clearly.

There is no proof of historical documents either for them or against them.

There is only evidence. (Proof and evidence are two different things.) When there is enough evidence, people accept it as true, that's how we know about Julius Caesar, Plato, and people like that.

I have provided a reason to believe they aren't fiction. The vast majority of historians have been persuaded by the weight of evidence that the Gospels were written before A.D. 100.

If you have no evidence against the New Testament, and there is evidence for the New Testament, people will continue to accept the New Testament.

What is your evidence against it?

reply to post by charles1952
I'm not disputing that the NT was written, I am disputing what the NT claims to have happened. There is no evidence that Jesus performed miracles or was resurrected or was born from a virgin. Historians can agree that a Jesus of Nazareth existed, but they can't agree that he did anything supernatural.That's the difference between PLato and Jesus, believing PLato existed doesn't require special circumstances. Believeing in PLato does not require me to consider immaculate conception, raising from the dead or performing miracles. Show me a historian that can say with certainty that Jesus did these things and I will show you a poor historian with a bias/agenda. A lack of evidence is evidence in itself.

Edit: I have no need to provide evidence against the NT. The one making supernatural claims is the one to present evidence to support their ideas. That "vast" majorities of historians put the time of writing at any particular time does not support supernatural claims, it only supports the physical act of writing something down. There is no reason to believe that anything in the NT is true, bias and upbringing provides the motivation to believe.

reply to post by Gigatronix

I don't want to make any more false steps or misunderstand you, so I'd rather take this slowly.

Is it fair to say that you believe the New Testament was written about Jesus of Nazareth, between 50 and 100 A.D., by the various people who are supposed to have written it, but the things they wrote about Jesus were false?

reply to post by charles1952


I don't have much to say on the authorship of Jesus, much in the way I don't have anything to say about the origins of Santa Claus; I don't really care. I won;t go so far as to say the authors were "lying" or what they said was "false", but rather I doubt the reality of where their claims come from. Take one of his apostles, who maybe claimed that he saw jesus perform miracles. How do we know that what he saw was simply something that he could not explain, but was actually based on real physical laws. What if he saw something, but was mistaken and didn't actually see what he thought he saw. Happens all the time. I'm not going to assert something is true when the possibility exists that the person I am getting this information from was mistaken. There are too many ifs/ands/buts for any of the claims made to stand on their own 2 feet. believing in these stories is a matter of faith, not a matter of discerning fact from fiction. I have no beef with anyone who wishes to believe these things, I do however have issues with people asserting these things as fact.

reply to post by Gigatronix

Dear Gigatronix,

I'm glad we're still together in this discussion. Thanks for writing back.

I don't have much to say on the authorship of Jesus, much in the way I don't have anything to say about the origins of Santa Claus; I don't really care.

Well, that would pretty much end it, wouldn't it?

But this is a mystery, the greatest mystery, bigger than aliens, or the NWO, or anything. I'd think you would like to solve it, if you have any curiosity.

People saw things, all sorts of things. Walking on water, rising into the sky, curing people of paralysis,feeding thousands with scraps, healing the blind, raising people from the dead. Those Jews and Romans weren't idiots, they knew something big was happening, something unprecedented. Hundreds of people died rather than say it didn't happen.

What physical law could possibly account for all those things? What accounted for the disciples being able to talk in languages that foreign visitors understood as their own? Are all the people who saw something identically mistaken?

The things that were written were passed all around. The people who were there could say "That didn't happen," and end the whole show right there.

I'm not telling you to believe, that's your call. But I'm saying "Be brave enough to look behind that closed door." Check it out for yourself. Know in your own mind that you have found the truth, whatever it is. Test it. If it doesn't make sense that Jesus was a hypnotist, be brave, throw it away, try something else.

Prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt? Nobody ever does, for anything. I've got some things I believe to be true, so do you. But gather the evidence, go where it leads you. Even deciding to duck the question is a decision. Why not make a decision you have evidence for?

With respect,
Charles1952