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A few questions for those who believe that UFO's are manned by interstellar fairing aliens.

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posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
1. Many people have claimed that UFO's can accelerate 90 degrees relative to their position and other maneuvers that contradict the underlying physical principles of current propulsion technology. What many scientists have concluded is that such aerial maneuvering can create gravitational forces so great (hundreds of times that of Earth) and would flatten any living creature like a pancake. Your take on this?
2. To cross the vast distances of the stars, it is known without a doubt that any engine that is used would need to be extremely vast and thus requires a huge star ship. Most UFO reportings are of objects from as small as 3 m across to a one mile. Such machinery is not capable of achieving the high speeds required to cover the astronomical distances in a feasibly short time, and any advanced civilization capable of travelling to the stars would not waste such high amounts of energy or a long time to just spy on humans. Your take on this?
3. An alien civilization capable of travelling to the stars has most likely mastered the physics of optics, and have cloaking technology at their disposal. Not only that, but they have also most likely mastered nanotechnology and the many other scientific areas that we have yet to even begin to slightly understand. In practice, would it not be feasible to have unmanned, cloaked aircraft that are very small but sufficient enough to serve the purpose of spying on humans?

I'll come up with more questions as the thread progresses.


I don’t understand why people do this?!?!?

You come to a UFO forum to tell people how stupid they are for believing that UFOs exist. Why do people persist with this line of attack?

If you don’t believe that's great, you can even come and enjoy some of the content for kicks or laughs etc. But to purposefully start a topic that says "your beliefs are flawed" is just inflammatory and pointless.

For the record, I don’t believe it all either but respect that others do.




posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 07:17 AM
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Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
1. Many people have claimed that UFO's can accelerate 90 degrees relative to their position and other maneuvers that contradict the underlying physical principles of current propulsion technology. What many scientists have concluded is that such aerial maneuvering can create gravitational forces so great (hundreds of times that of Earth) and would flatten any living creature like a pancake. Your take on this?
2. To cross the vast distances of the stars, it is known without a doubt that any engine that is used would need to be extremely vast and thus requires a huge star ship. Most UFO reportings are of objects from as small as 3 m across to a one mile. Such machinery is not capable of achieving the high speeds required to cover the astronomical distances in a feasibly short time, and any advanced civilization capable of travelling to the stars would not waste such high amounts of energy or a long time to just spy on humans. Your take on this?
3. An alien civilization capable of travelling to the stars has most likely mastered the physics of optics, and have cloaking technology at their disposal. Not only that, but they have also most likely mastered nanotechnology and the many other scientific areas that we have yet to even begin to slightly understand. In practice, would it not be feasible to have unmanned, cloaked aircraft that are very small but sufficient enough to serve the purpose of spying on humans?

I'll come up with more questions as the thread progresses.


1) They have found a way to manipulate interaction with the higgs field and are no longer troubled by constraints imposed by mass or inertia.
2) Its an outside context problem - (to paraphrase Ian Banks). We cannot impose the limitations of our science on beings who may be a millennia or more past us in terms of scientific advancement. In the same way a medieval peasant couldn't conceive of a jet engine.
3) Who's to say they don't. Who's to say sightings are deliberate acclimatisation actions and masses of other surveillance isn't carried out continually and without detection.



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 07:45 AM
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We don't know nearly as much about gravity as we think we do. From black holes we theorize that gravity can manipulate speed, light and time. Now, I couldn't care less about convincing anyone about anything, but if you truly want answers rather than just a fight; I'd start studying black holes.



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 07:55 AM
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reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist
 


Your questions, which tend to indicate that you are relatively new to thinking about ETs and UFOs, tend to dwell on what we expect of physics versus what capabilities they have. Let us simply deal with the first one about the physics of motion. You say that 90-degree turns of UFOscontradict the laws of physics.

That statement is flat wrong, false. That statement reflects what we BELIEVE about the limits of physics, not about what can be done with physics.

My signature line always carry the explanation but I suspect few people ever read it and fewer still understand what is being suggested. According to pure unadultrated basic physics, if we were to not know any diffeent by having access to nature first hand and the works of man, then we would not believe that anything could fly. Gravity would simply not allow it. Our feet and about everything except those mysterious clouds are firmly attached at all times to the surface of the Earth. That is a fact...well, it is in a narrow frame of ignorance. But once we know about birds, insects, kites, airplanes, etc., we come to change our reasoning to accept that basic law of physics can be cheated, side-stepped to allow flight. Thus, wings cheat gravity.

It is really amazing. Wings, flying, are a totally nature response of Nature to one of the most fundamental laws of Nature. I have found that most people can't get their head around that simple fact. If you can allow that concept than it is a short step to think of the physics of mass and what you could do if you were to eliminate the limitations that mass has upon a body. --Is it so hard today in our wide use and understanding of electromagnetic principles to understand that negating mass of an object is highly probable and probably is happening when we see a UFO doing "impossible antics? Denial is not an option.

Arther C. Clarke wrote, "That any significantly advance technology is indistinguishable from magic." Of course, a scientist today, doesn't believe in magic so he must dismiss for a variety of reasons those things that appear to be so, or he must accept that what is witnessed is "significantly advanced technology." But to go there with a scientific mind can destroy that mind with a condition best described as NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome. Professional humility is not a word that many scientist can accept. Denial is sooo convenient and government approves.



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 07:56 AM
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Theoretical physicists....the only people held less accountable than weathermen!



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 08:00 AM
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reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist
 


If a species is capable of travelling interstellar distances at speeds that makes such travel practical, then I would suggest they could reasonably offset the effects of gravity.

Anything that is alien in our skies could be robotic, in which case it would not need to be large in size. or affected by gravity as a biological being might be.

Conversely, what if the aliens are small? Our height is mainly determined by the size of our planet and the gravitational forces we face on the human frame. A smaller planet with lower gravity could, in theory produce taller people. Likewise, a larger planet with higher gravity could produce smaller people.

A silicone based life form, or any other unique base of life might not experience the effects of gravity as we do. Sentient creatures in water may be cocooned enough not to experience the effects at all.

You are judging aliens by your standards, and yet the very nature of the word alien in this case implies something/someone not of this earth and therefore you are attempting to compare apples to coal - a tactic used by people who seek to debunk without actually thinking the whole issue through.



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 08:02 AM
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Dolphin 1: I just ripped thru the fabric of time and for a minute there I was floating in a vast open free space, and then I was back.

Dolphin 2: Yea whatever.



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 08:03 AM
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reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist
 


In response to question (1), I have actually witnessed two separate occurrences of this phenomena. So I indeed know that whatever can make these dramatic manoeuvres do actually exist.

So going by your statement, it is not possible for this to be a result of human creation, correct?

What on earth can make a high speed 90 degree turn?
edit on 13-1-2012 by dsm1664 because: added link to thread



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 08:10 AM
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reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist
 


There are things within the infra-red spectrum which as it is self-explanatory. we do not see. I'm thinking even humans without alien technology can invent something like that.

Offtopic: MMMmmm delicious! My first coming for 2012, I still feel strange when I mention or type that year. The crisis deepens, are we going to war? Well my 60% belief in ET visitations are now a little bit 50%, other than I don't stop thinking about that ancient people can't be making so much noise around coming people from the skies and say all is just stories.



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 08:11 AM
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reply to post by dsm1664
 


Yes very possible, it makes perfect sense. You remember when they first tried to explain gravity and orbits and such and they put the bowling bowl in the middle of the sheet and it made a funnel and all the planets spun in it? That's massive objects warping space-time. The Earth is a source of such a gravity well, and the Sun, and the center of the Galaxy beyond that. If you possessed technology that could nullify or cancel out that well to a varying degree you could reproduce exactly the way some UFO craft are reported to fly. The Earth is moving around the Sun at 66,00 mph. If you had technology that would instantaneously isolate you from that space-time curve (and by definition any effects of inertia or momentum), to an observer on Earth you would vanish right before our eyes, as you stayed put while it zoomed away.
edit on 13-1-2012 by JayDub113 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
1. Many people have claimed that UFO's can accelerate 90 degrees relative to their position and other maneuvers that contradict the underlying physical principles of current propulsion technology. What many scientists have concluded is that such aerial maneuvering can create gravitational forces so great (hundreds of times that of Earth) and would flatten any living creature like a pancake. Your take on this?
2. To cross the vast distances of the stars, it is known without a doubt that any engine that is used would need to be extremely vast and thus requires a huge star ship. Most UFO reportings are of objects from as small as 3 m across to a one mile. Such machinery is not capable of achieving the high speeds required to cover the astronomical distances in a feasibly short time, and any advanced civilization capable of travelling to the stars would not waste such high amounts of energy or a long time to just spy on humans. Your take on this?
3. An alien civilization capable of travelling to the stars has most likely mastered the physics of optics, and have cloaking technology at their disposal. Not only that, but they have also most likely mastered nanotechnology and the many other scientific areas that we have yet to even begin to slightly understand. In practice, would it not be feasible to have unmanned, cloaked aircraft that are very small but sufficient enough to serve the purpose of spying on humans?

I'll come up with more questions as the thread progresses.

1. We don't know how advance crafts work. They may also have advance mechanisms wherein the passengers inside the craft do not feel anything while they are already traveling at extremely high speed.

2. To cross the vast distance, they may use the wormholes as shortcuts. They may also use other dimensions as shortcuts. You are right though that they use huge motherships for long distance travels. But once settled in our solar system, they may use the small crafts that you are talking about. The motherships will stay from a distance from us while the small crafts will do the observation on earth.

3. It is indeed feasible to use unmanned cloaked crafts for scouting on humans. So they use either unmanned crafts or manned crafts, depending on the need. Both are feasible.



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 09:34 AM
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One of the most puzzling aspects of UFOs for me is the diversity of sightings; saucers, cigars, orbs, pyramids, spinning yellow blobs etc. I myself witnessed two black cuboids with no wings or any visible means of propulsion

The phenomenon is reminiscent of the Standard Model of particle physics with a bizarre collection of different entities which don't seem to fit any pattern notwithstanding efforts to unify them with superstring theory

There is an enjoyable film called The Right Stuff (1983) which portrays the breaking of the sound barrier. At the time many aviators believed that any aircraft would disintegrate at the speed of sound and perhaps we currently believe the same thing about extreme g-force and inertia

I read a brief comment on youtube recently in response to a UFO video that succintly said: aliens wouldn't travel here in ships - they would find other ways of travelling across the universe. That comment stayed with me because we may have a very anthropocentric view on space travel conditioned by films like Star Trek

One of the other puzzling aspects, as emoted by the original poster, is the proliferation of UFO sightings without any effective camouflage. If these proposed visitors are shy then why not camouflage their ships, and if they are not shy then why not say hello instead of lurking around in the sky freaking everybody out

Again perhaps it is anthropocentric to believe that some UFOs are ships occupied by alien versions of Captain Kirk; maybe UFOs of extraterrestrial origin are themselves lifeforms rather than vessels which carry lifeforms which might explain the diverse range of shapes and sizes, the bizarre behaviour and the dichotomy of observation without mass contact



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
1. Many people have claimed that UFO's can accelerate 90 degrees relative to their position and other maneuvers that contradict the underlying physical principles of current propulsion technology. What many scientists have concluded is that such aerial maneuvering can create gravitational forces so great (hundreds of times that of Earth) and would flatten any living creature like a pancake. Your take on this?
2. To cross the vast distances of the stars, it is known without a doubt that any engine that is used would need to be extremely vast and thus requires a huge star ship. Most UFO reportings are of objects from as small as 3 m across to a one mile. Such machinery is not capable of achieving the high speeds required to cover the astronomical distances in a feasibly short time, and any advanced civilization capable of travelling to the stars would not waste such high amounts of energy or a long time to just spy on humans. Your take on this?
3. An alien civilization capable of travelling to the stars has most likely mastered the physics of optics, and have cloaking technology at their disposal. Not only that, but they have also most likely mastered nanotechnology and the many other scientific areas that we have yet to even begin to slightly understand. In practice, would it not be feasible to have unmanned, cloaked aircraft that are very small but sufficient enough to serve the purpose of spying on humans?

I'll come up with more questions as the thread progresses.


1. The aliens bodies could be of a completely different composition then ours. Or, they could have developed technology to counteract this. Maybe, like someone said above they don't expeirence time/space the same way.
2. It is known without a doubt? How? With no intersteller ships to look at how can we be so sure what they had to be like? They could have technology billions of years beyond your understanding. Maybe they travel through wormholes. Maybe they have developed ways to manipulate space and time, like a way to bend the fabric and create a bridge. Or maybe the small UFO's that fly around earth are only the little scout ships. Maybe the mothership that actually traveled here is parked somewhere else in the solar system. And who are you to say that such machinery is incapable of traveling the stars. Have you seen one and looked inside it before? If you haven't then you have no grounds to say it can't travel far. And on the silly assumption backed up by nothing but your own opinion that it MUST have a HUGE engene?
3. You do not know why ET are coming here. You assume too many things. They have reasons for being here, and they haven't told them to us. We can guess as to what those reasons are, but we can't use the fact that we dpm't know the reasons as evidence of an absence of aliens.



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by Cosmic911

Theoretical physicists....the only people held less accountable than weathermen!


For a second, I actually thought you had something to say. Check my signature.



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 10:16 AM
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I. They've obviously harnessed the power of gravity. (if there are interstellar fairing aliens visiting us).

2. Why would their ships have to be huge?

3. That's feasible, amongst all the other things up there. i.e. the uncloaked, manned ones, and all that.





edit on 13-1-2012 by wigit because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
1. Many people have claimed that UFO's can accelerate 90 degrees relative to their position and other maneuvers that contradict the underlying physical principles of current propulsion technology. What many scientists have concluded is that such aerial maneuvering can create gravitational forces so great (hundreds of times that of Earth) and would flatten any living creature like a pancake. Your take on this?


These kind of effect can be done using inertial dampening, the lessenig of the effects of inertia. This is a technology that exists right here on Earth, and has for at least 100's of years, albeit, not very effective. (consider the shock absorbers, and air bags in your car.) How advanced is that tech likely to be in another 100 years? Also consider how advanced that tech might be IF you had not allowed yourselves to be held back by the church.



2. To cross the vast distances of the stars, it is known without a doubt that any engine that is used would need to be extremely vast and thus requires a huge star ship. Most UFO reportings are of objects from as small as 3 m across to a one mile. Such machinery is not capable of achieving the high speeds required to cover the astronomical distances in a feasibly short time, and any advanced civilization capable of travelling to the stars would not waste such high amounts of energy or a long time to just spy on humans. Your take on this?


High speeds are not required to cover even inter-galactic distances! A simple "folding" of space is all that is required. There are also rather "low-tech" ways to alter the amount of time required to cover a distance, without effecting the distance. In this case; One's appearant speed can be many times the speed of light.

The powerr requirements can vary, depending on the technology used. However, the size of the power generaation device is irrelevant. Nuclear reactors have evolved fom massive structures that require 10's of acres to a device that fits quite comfortably on a submarine, or an aircraft, and that only took a few decades to develop.




3. An alien civilization capable of travelling to the stars has most likely mastered the physics of optics, and have cloaking technology at their disposal. Not only that, but they have also most likely mastered nanotechnology and the many other scientific areas that we have yet to even begin to slightly understand. In practice, would it not be feasible to have unmanned, cloaked aircraft that are very small but sufficient enough to serve the purpose of spying on humans?


Yes, absolutely! Though, not neccessaily I think it would depend on those doing the watching, and how they have aranged their priorities.

Etharzi od Oma



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 12:01 PM
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You might find Dr. Jacques Vallee's (along with Dr. Hynek) Five Arguments against the Extraterrestrial Theory (PDF) interesting and inline with your own questioning.


The Interdimensional Hypothesis expands on the arguments above with some pretty convincing deductions.

Zorgon mentioned the very, very real possibility of 'Plasma Critters" as a partial answer that deserves ,imo, another look-see by the UFO community.

History is chock full of accounts of luminescent beings that both fly and wink in and out of our perception and generally defy physics as we know it.

I don't believe they are ET either...but I do believe they are here.



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by dimethylmercury
I'm by no means an expert, but I shall give you my take on it.

1. As I understand it, the occupants do not feel inertial forces because they do not travel through space but rather fold the fabric of spacetime to arrive at their destination.

The problem with such concepts is that they only exist in the realm of abstract mathematics and science fiction. The only phenomena that have been observed in the universe that can visibly bend space time are black holes, and I truly doubt a space-faring civilization would replicate the characteristics of a black hole on their starship. Also, travelling through space-time does not negate the effects of the gravitational force, as according to general relativity, the gravitational force although being a weak force is a force that bends space time. Until UFOlogists can engineer a space-time bending technology, such an explanation should be dismissed.


Originally posted by dimethylmercury2. Many speculate that the classic "disk" shaped UFO is a scout ship which docks with a larger (possibly cylindrical or cigar shaped) mothership. The question of their motivation for visiting requires a knowledge of alien thought processes which nobody can reasonably posses and therefore speculation about which is precarious at best.

Still, starships that are capable of reaching near light speeds would have to be the size of countries, unless everything about the laws of energy conservation are incorrect. Again, the responsibility falls on the UFO community to produce significant evidence that our most well understood physical laws are wrong.



Originally posted by dimethylmercury3. Who is to say that such technology isn't here already observing us? Remote viewers have reported similar objects ("quarantine enforcers") for some time now. Such objects do not necessarily preclude the existence of manned aircraft however.

I can entertain such an idea, and is most probably how alien vistation is occurring, assuming it is.



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
And this is why the UFO community will never be taken seriously. Any attempt to ask valid questioning of the scientific laws these UFO's naturally obey is hand-waved by the UFO"logists" with such nonsensical explanations such as "antigravity". Plasma critters? That is definitely a new one I'm going to be adding to the list.


Ah so your question wasn't serious then, just want to hear support for what YOU think? Just so happens Denise Stoner, ex government investigator and director of MUFON Florida... in her opinion 50% of sightings are critters. Before you start calling it nonsense at least google plasma life forms and you will find main stream science is more than considering this and even recreating it in the lab



posted on Jan, 13 2012 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by dimethylmercury
As I understand it, the occupants do not feel inertial forces because they do not travel through space but rather fold the fabric of spacetime to arrive at their destination.


Well the only problem with that is that the effects observed are in local space, after they have arrived here. It is the observed behavior while in the atmosphere of them flitting about at high speeds and impossible maneuvers that is in question, not the trip from their planet to ours



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