Groom Lake, been there...

Thanks, very good read, I enjoyed this.

reply to post by Drunkenparrot

On a related note, this is a refreshingly mature conversation for this topic on this website.

Keep it classy ATS.

Many millions of s

Woo Hoo!! ( Oh, wait...did I spoil it? )


I particularly enjoyed the story of the civilian from 1957 (wasn't me, I swear!).......

reply to post by Soapusmaximus

I have looked at this just and you will notice that there are now buildings where these images were taken. possibly hangars?? most probably!

very interesting story, sounds like you had quite an experience. thanks for sharing

I would like to thank everyone that contributed to my post. I am rather overwhelmed at the response it got, and the additional information about the history of this place.

It reflects the diverse experience that is present on this incredible venue than a lot of posters might realize. (A revelation to me).

I have been contacted by aviation historians that would like to put the meat of this post in the records of other sites that keep track of aviation lore , and this is great because this is a what history is all about.

I have elected to keep what remains of this discussion here, for all to see, and if it ever gets moved , well that will be the decision of ATS, since this is the place that I have decided to introduce it.

The problem with detail, is the age of the event, and the records that that need to be produced and verified.

I am totally behind making this a traceable event, since it did happen, and somewhere there has to be a record of this flight, or portions of it, that do not come from me.

I am currently trying to get the bureau number of this P3b ("BUNO " being the acronym ) . I am thinking that the best way to get this , is from Willow Grove, where the flight originated from. Contacting VPNAVY, I found 2 of my shipmates deceased, leaving 2 more that I have talked to as recently as mid 2009. I do not want to give names in a post, but I am actively trying to seek them out. The rest of the crew were reserves that were there for the training, and I might be able to get a few names if I look hard enough. This is my current investigation.

My friends tell me it will be futile to try and get origination or departure information from "Area 51", but then again, is this a true statement?

So, to those out there that may know how to handle this query: If I want to talk to Willow Grove air controllers who have access to the archive of P3's that took off in that time frame, bound for NAS New Orleans (which is still a bit ambiguous, but did happen in October 1976), how do I get their attention without being ignored as some kind of crackpot? There has to be a method for this, and I ask you for advise. Post it here please.

I would also think that there would be similar records in New Orleans that would show a flight originating from Willow Grove.

Thanks Again!

reply to post by charlyv


Don't mention Area 51. At this point, it isn't even certain you were there. Desert Rock is much more likely. Further, mentioning Area 51 will get you sent to some dark corner of the FOIA office.

I don't investigate Navy incidents. If this was the USAF, I would know where to send you. Searching the internet, I found this link:
www.history.navy.mil...

Searching at NARA requires a trip to Maryland or DC (depending on where the archive is kept) and a very short training session. You will be issued a NARA ID which is unfortunately only good for one year.

I was hoping you would have a tail number, but at this point I will pass the story on to my contact at Moffett.

reply to post by Soapusmaximus


I forgot to mention that youtube video is total bunk. That isn't even where the fictitious S-4 is supposed to be located. That video is over at the NNSS, AKA N2S2, AKA NNSA, AKA NTS AOF (Aerial Operations Faciltiy) at Yucca Lake. It is a well known UAS (UAV) facility.

The saucer doesn't look like much to me, but the most hilarious part of the video is at the end where the person claims to find a flying triangle. This is a prime example of somebody that doesn't have baseline knowledge of things you might find on a hilltop. The flying triangle is a "Microflect". The phone companies uses these to reflect microwaves, hence the name Microflect. [The idea is you have the active parts of the system at ground facilities so that you don't have to service the mountain top hardware. This can be done for point to point links.] I have photographs of that particular Microflect on this page, along with some on Brock Mountain in Tonopah.

www.lazygranch.com...

The manufacturers website:
www.valmont.com...

I took the photo of the Microflect on Papoose Mountain from the Power Line Overlook. If you look at it on Google Earth, the MIcroflect is not on the top of the mountain, but a bit below the peak. It may be used by Groom Lake if they beam a signal off it from Bald Mountain or even a ground location in the valley north of Groom Lake, but it certainly isn't used in any flying operations, even if you read that on another forum.

Originally posted by gariac
reply to post by charlyv

 

Don't mention Area 51. At this point, it isn't even certain you were there. Desert Rock is much more likely. Further, mentioning Area 51 will get you sent to some dark corner of the FOIA office.

I don't investigate Navy incidents. If this was the USAF, I would know where to send you. Searching the internet, I found this link:
www.history.navy.mil...

Searching at NARA requires a trip to Maryland or DC (depending on where the archive is kept) and a very short training session. You will be issued a NARA ID which is unfortunately only good for one year.

I was hoping you would have a tail number, but at this point I will pass the story on to my contact at Moffett.

Nah, it was Area 51, we proved it years ago. They can come get me if they want, they certainly made sure that me , or my crew did not see anything. Being on a P3, we all had Top Secret anyway, so if they had any problem, we would have been interrogated right there and then. I will come up with this tail number if I can, but my last research showed that P3b's from NAS Willow Grove and also from NAS South Weymouth got sold the New Zealand, but I have a friend trying to further verify that.

reply to post by charlyv


Groom Lake is on a need to know basis. TS clearance is just a start.

First up is to find the incident. If it was Area 51, the name will be redacted in the report.

Originally posted by gariac
reply to post by charlyv

 

Groom Lake is on a need to know basis. TS clearance is just a start.

First up is to find the incident. If it was Area 51, the name will be redacted in the report.

Agree. I know that TS does not even trump compartmentalized confidential, and need to know is the key to any security. However, this was not a crew of off course civilians with no credentials. It was military, and that is the only way we were vectored there in an emergency. Any ideas on how to approach Willow Grove with departure info? (as a civilian).

reply to post by charlyv


Well you are never really a civilian, just ex-military. ;-)

I contacted the NUQ historian. No reply yet.

In the USAF, they have the supervisor of flying that has logs. I assume there is an Navy equivalent. But the real key is the repair record. So I gather you need the log to find the tail number, else you can't see the repair records. Catch-22. Whenever I've done this kind of research, I always had the tail number.

What I would do is find the Navy equivalent of the USAF Flight Safety office, and simply ask for the tail numbers of all P-3 incidents in that month. I mean, there can't be that many incidents. Losing an engine should be rare enough in one month.

Not that it matters, but you will be contacted by lawyers. Probably JAG. Just tell them the truth. I doubt they really care at all, but it never ceases to amaze me as to why the government phones me to ask why I want some document. Thus far any lawyer that asked me why I wanted the information couldn't be nicer.

reply to post by gariac


Checking with Moffet, there is no recollection of the incident at all. If there was a tail number, then there would be at least a chance to investigate the event.

At this point, I think it unlikely the plane landed at Groom, simply because it would quite a diversion when there are other airports in the line of the typical flight pattern.

Landing at Groom is not trivial. Too many things could go wrong. Even the 737 that lost an engine went all the way back to McCarran rather than try to land at Groom.

But if a tail number is ever posted, I'll FOIA it.

A past crew member, not a close friend ,says that this was the bird.

www.vpnavy.com...

It is listed as a P3-a, not a b
Buno: 150529
What I flew in had the AQA-7 system in it +BFI, so my experience shows AQA-5 in most .a and the .b, .c had AQA-7
Not sure that this is a consistent assumption, but it is a start.

reply to post by charlyv


I will do the FOIA. Let's see what turns up.

I think I'll go ahead and say I think you're full of it.You can come on here and tell stories all day long but I really don't believe you went to area 51.Sorry I just don't believe it.

Originally posted by indy0725
I think I'll go ahead and say I think you're full of it.You can come on here and tell stories all day long but I really don't believe you went to area 51.Sorry I just don't believe it.

You have an attitude problem buddy. I really do not care what you think, but there are people in this forum that know a lot more than you do. You disrespect all of them as well.

reply to post by charlyv


Researching the tail number this weekend prior to the submitting the FOIA, according to the scramble.nl database, this plane is in the museum located at:

Hawkins & Powers Aviation Incorporated
307-765-4482
2441 Highway 20 Greybull, WY 82426

I will see if the plane is there and if it appears toasty.

reply to post by charlyv


there are people in here that "know a lot more than i do" so that makes it a vaild arguement?wow.I don't have a bad attitude I'm just saying I think you're full of it.I don't really believe they;d just let some random plane land at area 51 that was having problems.I mean i understand its a military plane but I'm just not buying it.

The golden years of 150529 have not been pleasant. The plane was at Hawkins and Powers in sad shape. You can see the magnetometer is gone.
www.aviationmuseum... .eu/World/North_America/USA/Wyoming/Greybull/Aviation_and_Aerial_Firefighting/150529_EP-3A.htm
I can't find any evidence this plane was converted from a P-3 to EP-3, so take all the secrecy comments associated with the photo with a grain of salt.

Here it is in even a worse state of repair:
www.airliners.net...&sid=b63160a3ab4b9e740f8800e1b8ea5233

Hawkins and Powers went out of business in 2005. I tracked down when the "museum" grade planes were located. The guy who had seen both P-3 thought there was nothing unusual about BU 150529. It was great for spare parts.

The plane got chopped up and sent to Aero Union in Chico. Aero Union is also out of business. I will try to see if the plane was totally scrapped or sent elsewhere.

Now could a toasty P-3 be considered a good airframe after repair? Eh, why not. Wings and engines can be replaced.

Originally posted by gariac
The golden years of 150529 have not been pleasant. The plane was at Hawkins and Powers in sad shape. You can see the magnetometer is gone.
www.aviationmuseum... .eu/World/North_America/USA/Wyoming/Greybull/Aviation_and_Aerial_Firefighting/150529_EP-3A.htm
I can't find any evidence this plane was converted from a P-3 to EP-3, so take all the secrecy comments associated with the photo with a grain of salt.

Here it is in even a worse state of repair:
www.airliners.net...&sid=b63160a3ab4b9e740f8800e1b8ea5233

Hawkins and Powers went out of business in 2005. I tracked down when the "museum" grade planes were located. The guy who had seen both P-3 thought there was nothing unusual about BU 150529. It was great for spare parts.

The plane got chopped up and sent to Aero Union in Chico. Aero Union is also out of business. I will try to see if the plane was totally scrapped or sent elsewhere.

Now could a toasty P-3 be considered a good airframe after repair? Eh, why not. Wings and engines can be replaced.

Wow, that is great information, but a sad affair for that bird. Sitting in a junk pile with a lot of SP-2H!!!
Great job in hunting that down, I could not get anywhere with it. Wonder why it was scrapped and not sold to the third world like most others. Sure, on the wings and engines, but could not get a good shot of the #4 spot. Wonder if they took everything in that nacelle. The first link you put up, the Museum , the link was unidentified and went to a placeholder page...