Bush wants the Draft? I think not., page 2


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reply posted on 13-9-2004 @ 04:17 PM by Herman
Damn, it got alot of replies in such a short time. I didn't even check it until now. I don't even know how to respond...I was going to say stuff, but now the topic has changed alot. All I can say is it makes me really mad when people just ignore the evidence. You see proof, then just say something like "Well Bush says he's against alot of things that he's actually for". The argument from heelstone seemed to be that although Bush is against the draft, the way we're going suggests that we're going to NEED one because we don't have enough volunteers. This still doesn't change the fact that Bush is against it. He plans on giving more money and benefits to the volunteers, and that's how he plans on raising the volunteer rate. Didn't you read the article?

Rant, I'm sorry but you seem to be very close minded. You're strongly against republicans, even if they stand for something you agree with. Bush says something you like, and you just say that it's not really what he's gonna do! He's gonna reverse it! And no, I'm not going to look back on this and say what was I thinking. Right now, I'm looking back on when I was a liberal and thinking "what was I thinking?". This broad generalization that liberals are smart, educated, and anyone supporting Bush or the war is dumb, close-minded is a very stupid generalization. You seem to refuse to accept other peoples opinions. And stop with the thing where you try to be controversial by calling Bush the flip-flopper, when it's most definately Kerry. Maybe I should start using your logic, Rant. Maybe everytime someone presents credible evidence against something I believe, I'll just say that's not really what's going to happen. It's just a lie. It's really easy to do that, you know.



reply posted on 13-9-2004 @ 06:11 PM by RANT
Originally posted by Herman
Rant, I'm sorry but you seem to be very close minded. You're strongly against republicans, even if they stand for something you agree with. Bush says something you like, and you just say that it's not really what he's gonna do! He's gonna reverse it! And no, I'm not going to look back on this and say what was I thinking. Right now, I'm looking back on when I was a liberal and thinking "what was I thinking?". This broad generalization that liberals are smart, educated, and anyone supporting Bush or the war is dumb, close-minded is a very stupid generalization. You seem to refuse to accept other peoples opinions. And stop with the thing where you try to be controversial by calling Bush the flip-flopper, when it's most definately Kerry. Maybe I should start using your logic, Rant. Maybe everytime someone presents credible evidence against something I believe, I'll just say that's not really what's going to happen. It's just a lie. It's really easy to do that, you know.


If I'm closed minded I must be in damn good company with you friend since on several occasions you have now refused to even look at Bush's tragic flip flops. This bunk from you that "it's most definitely Kerry" is closed minded spoon fed campaign garbage planned by the RNC well in advance of Kerry ever opening his mouth this election. It's not "spontaneous public realization" that made you think Kerry was anything. It was fed to you to cover up Bush's horrible record.

But since you're too "open minded" to ever actually click any links or news items or summary threads on Bush's devastating record of flip flops, even though you've now demanded I stop saying Bush is flip flopper on at least two occasions I know of (which is about the most closed minded thing you can do my young Republican friend), I'll make it really easy breazy even for a wide open mind like yours to take in.

Here's the simplist, crappiest, most watered down summary of some of Bush's flip flops I can find you quickly off
www.dailykos.com... though I've seen better.


Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.

Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.

Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.

Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.

Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.

Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.

Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.

Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.

Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.

Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.

Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits

Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.

Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island.

Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.

Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will

Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say's he shouldn't have.

Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote

Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.

Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.


There, you just read something that may not coincide with your way of thinking 100%. I happen to do it all the time. You've taken a great step on the road to recovery from your very special brand of "open mindedness" that demands I have to agree with you.

PS:

BUSH = FLIP FLOPPER


reply posted on 21-9-2004 @ 10:26 AM by RANT
Originally posted by Herman
Bush is...For the draft? I think not.

Don't believe the propaganda.


I haven't looked at this in a while, but having come across the actual speech being analyzed in your above link as "proof" Bush is against the draft, let's contrast the article with Bush's actual words:

Campaign 2004: Bush rules out return of military draft
Kerry blasts president for creating record budget deficit

By STEWART M. POWELL
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER WASHINGTON BUREAU

President Bush yesterday ruled out resuming the military draft as the death toll of Americans in Iraq topped 1,000 after 17 months of combat and occupation there.

Bush, addressing a question from a supporter in Sedalia, Mo., said the key to avoiding resumption of the draft, which ended in 1973, was to provide enough benefits to the nation's volunteer armed forces to encourage continued recruitment.


White House - Bush Remarks Sept. 7
Got a question? Yes. Future farmer of America, there you go.

Q Mr. President, if the war on terrorism continues, do you feel that there will be a need for the draft? And do you want to start the draft again?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, first of all, the war on terror will continue. It's going to take awhile. And, no, we don't need a draft. What we need to do is -- don't worry about it. What we need to do is to make sure our troops are well-paid, and well-housed, and well-equipped. (Applause.)

And that's why -- and that's why over the last three-and-a-half years we've increased military pay by 21 percent. And that's why our housing is better. (Applause.) We've improved housing. You see, you keep a soldier in the military by appealing to his family or her family. When the housing is good, when the health is good, they stay. When the pay is decent, they stay.

And so, therefore, in making a volunteer army work, it's best to treat our soldiers with the best we possibly can. And we made great progress in doing just that. No, I'm -- we don't need the draft. We don't need a draft at all.


Bush does go on to talk about how to avoid the need for a draft with the article's citation for how to attract volunteers, but Bush doesn't rule out a draft at all in my reading. In fact, he's quite careful and stunted in his choice of words when directly addressing the draft issue. Stammers and all are White House transcript issued.


Q Mr. President, if the war on terrorism continues, do you feel that there will be a need for the draft? And do you want to start the draft again?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, first of all, the war on terror will continue. It's going to take awhile.

And, no, we don't need a draft. What we need to do is -- don't worry about it.

...

No, I'm -- we don't need the draft. We don't need a draft at all.


So with hesitation, we don't need a draft right now. There's ways to avoid one, and should they work...no draft. But this is far from a promise or even stating a postion as against a draft, should the need arise.

And I love this one... "don't worry about it."

Until after the election no doubt.

Intrepret it how you like, but it's far from a determined line in the sand against a post election draft, and his words "rule out" nothing.

What say you teenagers? Convinced Bush doesn't have a foot on both sides of the fence with this one? The flip flopping history of Bush on campaign statements (I discussed earlier in this thread) appears quite relevant now.


reply posted on 22-9-2004 @ 04:13 AM by CazMedia
As was said earlier, a draft is used in other civilized nations to instill civics, and teach the youth something to help unite them and their country.
I think civil/millitaryservice is a great idea.

How many thousands of youths from 18-25 get murdered or go to prison every year? (in the USA) Soo many of the youth are total wast cases, gang banging and continuing in lives if crime....lets give them something to live for (like not dying or prison).
We have too many truely wasted lives here already...why would teaching them, paying them, giving them jobs, and more education, while improving our abillity as a people, a nation, a culture to get along with each other be a bad thing? There only going to die in drive by gang style shootings anyway...at least in the millitary, theyd have a fighting chance and a real target for their frustrating lives of crime and poverty.

Now of course the total # of these types of youths is the minority, and most kids are productive and generally active members of society...they arent immune to needing something to help unite them culturally...to learn about other demographics and cultures etc.etc...to learn about service to others, honor, duty, and responsibillity.

The total # of US troops killed AND wounded (in Iraq) pales in comparison to the total # of people murdered in the USA each year. I think that there are plenty of things these people could be doing both for society and for themselves instead of gang-banging and work in the drug trade.

knowing there would be a draft would get a bunch of young people more serious about their lives, and would help make everyone equals here as everyone would all have to serve.
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