NASA Officially confirms: Cold Fusion(LENR) is REAL

Originally posted by TropicKandie

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by TropicKandie
What is cold fusion?? I have no idea what cold fusion is? will someone tell me I tried reading the post to find out but, didnt see anyone say what it is.

Nuclear Fission splits an atom and produces a lot of heat and radioactivity... which we use to boil water and make steam for turning generators So basically a Nuclear plant is a very hot steam engine

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Thanks for letting me know that is neat! If they really discoverd this cold fusion that would be awsome!!

and thanks for fixing my pic on the other board when I first joined!!

Zorgon, you ole dog!

I woulda fixed your pic and given you candy!!!
erm..ok..right...on topic..uhh..cold fusion = having a nuclear reactor without all the dangerous stuff..and if there is any truth in the claims here...about the size of a microwave you can have in your garage, powering everything for pretty much free (add some water now and then)...thats not exactly dead accurate, but it gives you a sort of fantasy understanding of whats being discussed...

But don't sell off your solar panels just yet, they have been right on the edge of discovery for what..20..30 years now? lots of false eureka moments.
Still, one can hope.

There are many labs reporting success in proving Cold Fusion (LENR) or what ever it is. NASA stated the energy was large, so they must have seen some significant functioning in the lab or demo. For the short term it doesn't matter what it is as long as we can use it for cheap energy. Rossi seems to be leading the pack and I hope he ships product this year. If home heating/air Conditioning/ Electricity come to pass in the next few years there will be the biggest society change ever, even bigger than the invention of the car or airplane.
Homes will go off grid, Cars and airplanes will no longer use oil. The middle east will no longer ship much oil and will cease to be the focal point of war. Vertical farming will develop everywhere with cheap abundant food for everyone. A new day is about to dawn!

In the mean time Physicists will argue and demand Peer revued papers as the rest of society ships products.

Originally posted by flexy123

and they will go up for sale this Fall

How can you even REMOTELY believe this?

I remember reading that, while BASICALLY a harmless (claimed!) device, inside the device there is (allegedly) some nuclear reaction taking place. The device has to be shielded with lead because of this radiation.

You cannot simply "invent" something like that and make the RIDICULOUS claim it will be "on sale in Home Depot" a few months later - without EXTENSIVE tests for security and safety FROM ALL ANGLES and not only a "select few" people where no one even know WHO they are.

There is no fricking way that a potential nuclear reactor (as "safe" as it might be claimed it is) is on the shelves without MONTHS if not YEARS of testing, let alone the exact understanding of the process and underlying mechanism.

Here in Europe (for example) you could not manufacture a light bulb or even the simplest device and get it on the market without testing from CE, VDE and countless other organizations.

But go ahead and think it will be "on the shelves" in a few months while the rest of the world does not even UNDERSTAND the process, let alone its safety, risks etc. ITS NOT POSSIBLE, ITS ABSURD to think otherwise.

edit on 13-1-2012 by flexy123 because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-1-2012 by flexy123 because: (no reason given)

Yes. I started thinking about the "will sell to Home Depot" claim, and the more I thought, the more it seems like complete B.S.

Think about it this way. What does Home Depot sell, and to whom? Home builders, remodelers and contractors.

Are they going to sell something for home use which hasn't been tested by Underwriters Laboratory (US) and TUV (Germany), like all other major appliances? No, the customers wouldn't buy one. I wouldn't buy one and put it in my house, obviously, unless this has been done. Does it pass Energy Star requirements? What about building codes? Who's going to approve something when the business can't/won't even describe how it works, much less why it works? With some supposedly new physical principle?

If Rossi was just totally naive and actually talked to somebody at Home Depot, then that HD guy would have made it pretty clear what the steps would be, manufacture it, get it checked by an appliance trade organization, and other labs etc etc. And then there would have to be a significant test-marketing phase and feedback from installers, this notion of 1 million units sold x $2000 next year is insane. That's $2billion---is the home hot-water heater market $2 billion? I really doubt it.

So my conclusion is that Rossi hasn't actually talked to anybody at Home Depot and he has no actual sensible plan for anything, and the only reason to mention 1 million units x $2000 in a year is to invent some numbers to whet people's greed to scam somebody.

It's like somebody invents a magic drink powder which he says cures cancer, and nobody can really nail him down on an independent rigorous test, and he wont' disclose what molecules it's made of, or why it works, and he thinks he's going to be selling it at every Wallgreens next year?


Notice how Navy & NASA aren't in the slightest actually associated with or supporting anything Rossi is doing, and that whatever Rossi actually does always seems to generate more suspicion. There was supposed to be a definitive test this fall, and whoops, no it didn't happen like that. There was some Greek company involved as a business & manufacturing partner, who now pulled out. Whoops.

Remember, Nickel + Hydrogen = Nickel Metal hydride battery. Funny how it can store energy.

Note that it's also possible for the system to both have LENR (at a low and insignificant level) and yet still the observed 'heat released' is just ordinary thermodynamics of a metal hydride.

Here's my basic physical problem. If you had LENR which was really producing dozens of watts and up of actual power, the reaction rate simply has to be very high. The (so far vague) LENR theories are suggesting some kind of unusual weak-force catalyzed reaction, compared to strong-force driven conventional fusion and fission. Well, in this case the energy release per reaction is smaller, so the number of them (to make watts of power) must be even larger.

The problem is that with such a large reaction rate, there will inevitably be some reaction pathways which release normal, identifiable, ionizing radiation. Even if the primary pathway is suppressed, by some so far magic mechanism, into a non radioactive reaction, in QM, as it's probabilistic, there are always a number of potential states that any energetic nucleus/particle can transition into---this is an immutable phenomenon in the laws of nature. Sure these other pathways may be less probable, requiring 3 body instead of 2 body, blah blah blah, but they are definitely observed and known to happen. Even with a 10^-3 or 10^-4 branching ratio, with a reaction rate which is supposedly causing watts to kilowatts of power, the nuclear detectors should be clicking like crazy. Note that we can detect SINGLE charged particles/photons of sufficient energy and count them, particle instrumentation is amazingly sensitive compared to macroscopic energy scales.

But supposedly this doesn't happen at all, it's just "excess heat". That strains my credulity just too much and leads me to believe it's energy storage or a heat pump and any exotic nuclear reactions are irrelevant and commercially unimportant.

If this does turn out to be true and we get units in the home to power and heat the place........

I'll wager we still have to pay through the nose.

I have a feeling that the profit motive will still rule and the consumer will pay just as much for power as they do now.

The technology will be licensed to existing power providers and they will dominate the industry as they do now and charge a premium for this power over conventional power.

I hope I'm wrong......

Originally posted by CrikeyMagnet

Originally posted by AaronWilson
Rossi was like a crazy mad scientist. He knew bare minimum in physics and very little in chemistry. Yet he created cold fusion.

Go figure.

Isn't it funny how the less you know about the physical principles behind something, the more you can get around the limitations?

Yes, it's funny. Outside of comedy, it doesn't actually happen in the real world. .

I think that shows we're training for the wrong things. Our educational systems (wherever you happen to be) is based on knowing what we already know, and not so much on circumventing or disputing what we already know.

That's because actual progress, from historical evidence, requires people who know all about what is currently known and what evidence supports that knowledge.

Even knowing what I do about Physics (High-school physics, plus the reading of a few books of theories) I have thoughts of ways to break the speed of light, or escape from a black hole, or... whatever. There are limitations placed on those who know the rules. Anyone who does not know is more likely to get past those limitations. (In my opinion.)

No, they're more likely to think of things that are wrong, and usually in uninteresting and ignorant ways.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by NeoVain
LENR is a form of Cold Fusion, which you should know by now. Scientists generally avoid the stigma associated with the "Cold Fusion" term by instead calling it LENR. That does not change that it is based on the same research originally performed by stanley and pons in 1989.

I've seen that stated by other sources.

However, I don't think this particular claimed LENR process is just a euphemism for cold fusion, it's not cold fusion. Fusion is the creation of heavier elements from lighter ones, and there are no heavier elements created in this process that I can see based on the limited information available.

So, you should probably take the "cold fusion" part out of the title, I think, and just leave it LENR.

You came in here just to complain, op ripped apart your complaints making you look like a fool and the best you can do is say change your title. What a douche.

Originally posted by CrikeyMagnet
Even knowing what I do about Physics (High-school physics, plus the reading of a few books of theories) I have thoughts of ways to break the speed of light, or escape from a black hole, or... whatever. There are limitations placed on those who know the rules.

Oh, do enlighten us.
You have ways on how to break the speed of light.
no, don't tell here...start a thread. talk about it, explain clearly how it can be done.


blasting you because you blast science as being basically ignorant, yet you provide no reasoning beyond it not being erm...sci-fi enough?
Scientists are stupid, they keep going on about how I can't fly, but I figured out a way on how with the right mix of flapping my arms and humming I probably will be able to. take that science! now, lets give it a shot...

yes, it sounded like that.
the less people know about science, the more they can circumvent limitations proven by scientific testing? citation needed please...

looking forward to your faster than light travel thread...also the other thread where you discuss antigravity with use of a buttered piece of toast tied to the back of a cat.

(yes, I think anyone outwardly condemning people educating themselves properly should be spotlighted and seen as the fools they are. no offense against you personally. You may be a cool person, but that posting is foolish...court jester type fool but without the redeeming quality of humor)

Oh I know what could be next,......................."oh and by the way, the military has been using this technology to power prototype aircraft for some time."

Originally posted by NeoVain
This is the perfect example for why we need a complete overhaul of the societal structure. We cannot have this system where everyone needs a "job" to make ends meet anymore, that becomes clearer by the day. Less and less people are required in the industries and corporations each day, this tech will just deal another fatal blow to this kind of economy. Jacque fresco have been saying this for 70 years but no one takes him seriously. His venus project is the logical next step.

I couldn't agree with you more. The situation becomes more ludicrous with every day that passes. The only difference in my position is that I believe everyone that can contribute (work) should. However, we should be able to retire sooner and work less hours as a result of modern technology. It is so obvious that only a brain-washing of epic proportions has been able to mask that truth.

Surely the point of technology is so that we can work less. Surely it is not so that a few people are can be very wealthy at the expense of the majority, many work themselves to death and the rest live in poverty. Progress would be an economy that uses scientific and technological advances for the betterment of all humanity IN THE LONG TERM. Under the current socio-economic system that will not happen.

And well done for reporting this. It's a shame the "corporate voices" - that continue to hold humanity back in order to keep us energy dependent - will continue to win the argument about much of alternative energy research and energy policy. I hope I'm wrong....

It is time for a change.

Sell your cars while you can. Strange they'd confirm it.

Originally posted by Pimander


And well done for reporting this. It's a shame the "corporate voices" - that continue to hold humanity back in orderto keep us energy dependent - will continue to win the argument about much of alternative energy research and energy policy. I hope I'm wrong....

There are more corporations which are consumers of energy than producers of energy. It is reality which keeps people energy-dependent, because energy is very useful. The notion that there would be some global suppression of amazing, inexpensive, effective and powerful energy technology is childish and incommensurate with the real world. (By contrast, the best overall such technology we know about today, liquid hydrocarbons, is pretty well established, and well-known).

reply to post by mbkennel

What are you trying to do, kill the DVD sales for all the folks who claim otherwise?

Not that the DVD sellers have anything to worry about, as far as I can tell; the people buying the DVDs don't listen to reason for the most part...they are convinced some secret energy technology is suppressed and are buying the DVDs to "confirm" their unfounded belief. The funny thing is, Tom Bearden claims this "secret tech" is suppressed, but you can find tons of things written by him exposing this "secret tech" so it doesn't seem to be suppressed at all. He seems to be able to reveal any "secrets" he wants and nobody is stopping him. And it's kind of funny that some people don't even see the huge contradiction.

Eugene Mallove made similar claims about cold fusion being suppressed, but none of his claims hold up to any scrutiny as far as I can see. The US Navy has been working on cold fusion/LENR a long time, and they are publishing papers about it, so again, not secret nor suppressed.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
A couple of questions:
Where's the peer reviewed paper on this? Scientific discoveries are published in papers.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
The US Navy has been working on cold fusion/LENR a long time, and they are publishing papers about it, so again, not secret nor suppressed.

Seriously?

reply to post by zorgon

Seriously.

I cited the Navy paper.

Where is the NASA paper?

As you pointed out, NASA "borrowed" stuff from the Navy. So what has NASA done to "confirm" this?

Applied for a patent? Nope, that doesn't count.

Originally posted by fusionman
There are many labs reporting success in proving Cold Fusion (LENR) or what ever it is. NASA stated the energy was large, so they must have seen some significant functioning in the lab or demo. For the short term it doesn't matter what it is as long as we can use it for cheap energy. Rossi seems to be leading the pack and I hope he ships product this year. If home heating/air Conditioning/ Electricity come to pass in the next few years there will be the biggest society change ever, even bigger than the invention of the car or airplane.
Homes will go off grid, Cars and airplanes will no longer use oil. The middle east will no longer ship much oil and will cease to be the focal point of war. Vertical farming will develop everywhere with cheap abundant food for everyone. A new day is about to dawn!

In the mean time Physicists will argue and demand Peer revued papers as the rest of society ships products.

One of the best comments I have seen on ATS in some time

All the armchair wannabe scientists on here constantly attacking any new ideas is getting old. ATS used to be THE place to discuss such ideas, but lately its more like 10 pages of naysayers for ever 2-3 posts of people actually interested in the subject

People scream for papers and when you post links to papers they ignore them. Even the fact that agencies like NASA and the NAVY are seriously looking at this isn't enough.

"All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self-evident". - Arthur Schopenhauer

Seems we are well into stage two

I think its time I moved on...

reply to post by zorgon

So start shipping the products already.

I've got no argument against that. I'll wait until I see the consumer reports lab tests before choosing which brand to buy however.

Originally posted by fusionman
There are many labs reporting success in proving Cold Fusion (LENR) or what ever it is. NASA stated the energy was large, so they must have seen some significant functioning in the lab or demo. For the short term it doesn't matter what it is as long as we can use it for cheap energy. Rossi seems to be leading the pack and I hope he ships product this year. If home heating/air Conditioning/ Electricity come to pass in the next few years there will be the biggest society change ever, even bigger than the invention of the car or airplane.

Why would society change so much? It's like your utility switching from coal to gas. You like that there's less smog. Other than that life is pretty darn similar. Cars and aircraft totally changed people's habits and expectations for travel and business.

Homes will go off grid, Cars and airplanes will no longer use oil. The middle east will no longer ship much oil and will cease to be the focal point of war. Vertical farming will develop everywhere with cheap abundant food for everyone. A new day is about to dawn!

In the mean time Physicists will argue and demand Peer revued papers as the rest of society ships products.

All the armchair wannabe scientists on here constantly attacking any new ideas is getting old.

Armchair, yes, wannabe no.

ATS used to be THE place to discuss such ideas, but lately its more like 10 pages of naysayers for ever 2-3 posts of people actually interested in the subject

I'm interested in the subject, and I believe in denying ignorance.

People scream for papers and when you post links to papers they ignore them. Even the fact that agencies like NASA and the NAVY are seriously looking at this isn't enough.

No, it isn't enough, because any results (*) that we have so far are completely inadequate to explain or justify large scale shifts in energy technology.

(*) Rossi does not count as a "result".

"All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self-evident". - Arthur Schopenhauer

Seems we are well into stage two

I think its time I moved on...

Schopenhauer wasn't talking about physics. Nothing in physics is self-evident after Aristotle. Aristotle's natural science was the best of "self-evident" and it was wrong.

The late Judah Folkman had a sign in his office: "In God I trust---everybody else, bring data."

Funny, let's take another example. Nuclear fission was completely unexpected in 1938 as it first appeared in a lab. By 1941 we had a working reactor, and by 1945 industrial-scale reactor technology (Hanford).
Supposedly LENR has been around for 20 years---from 1938 to 1958 we went from a lab oddity to nuclear-powered submarines.

Why was fission accepted so easily? Because it worked, it worked big, it was controllable and understandable and amenable to consistent experimentation, and it worked from the beginning. People could explain it and control it, and that's what it takes to turn an odd result into technology.

The notion that professional scientists don't accept new ideas because they are stubborn and dumb is not true. They accept new ideas when there's good data and understanding.

I'm personally in favor of continuing rigorous R&D on this subject even though it is so far, marginal. I'm disputing that the level of understanding and development is anywhere close to technology or that the reliability and capability of this phenomenon is even sufficiently strong, as known today, to make it a possibility.

thought so

Why would society change so much? It's like your utility switching from coal to gas. You like that there's less smog. Other than that life is pretty darn similar. Cars and aircraft totally changed people's habits and expectations for travel and business.

Society would change because the instant the fact that these machines exist and are ready to deploy hits wall street and the main stream, oil futures crash. This will cause a chain reaction that totally destroys all world economies and plunges the entire would into chaos. And a new world will emerge after suffering greatly but temporarily, but many will die of starvation.

reply to post by consciousgod


Yet this is probably what is needed if we are to ever make progress from this kind of society where consumerism is king and we continually gooble up the worlds resources at an unsustainable rate. This tech may indeed be our last chance for long time survival, even if the short-term ramifications will be immense. I am sure there will be an opposing force here, and this may be what causes the most damage in the end. But there is no question in my my mind that; this artificial opposing force cannot ever hope to win versus our own natural technological evolution. We, as a species, evolve by tech, not genes, in the relative short term of things, which is opposed to all other forms of life on this planet, that evolve exclusively by genes, but over a much greater timespan.