The U.S involvement in the Middle East

So I've been seeing for a while now lots of anti-war, anti-government, anti-war on terrorism opinions floating around on here and I just thought I'd share my thoughts.

When people say the US sticks it's nose in other countries business that is for the most part true. But not being in the Middle East wouldn't prevent terrorist attacks. In a video Ron Paul said something along the lines of "they don't hate our freedom, they hate us because we're invading their countries" which is definitely true to a degree but what about all the terrorist attacks on other 1st world countries that aren't involved in the war? Terrorists attack those countries too because they are threatening their radicals values. Whether you think it's not "proper" or polite or whatever, those terrorists who have radical, primitive, and/or religious views are being pushed out by more developed countries and they feel threatened. Which has happened time and time again in history.

The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was horribly planned and just an awful way to go about it. Sending in massive amounts of ground troops to fight an uninformed enemy who use guerrilla tactics? That's going to be a slaughter. I know ATS isn't the most Obama-loving website but he has the right idea when it comes to fighting an insurgency. Spec-ops teams and predator drones and all that. It is a shame there is war and death but there has to be. If it's not them, it's us. All animals have survived on this concept since the dawn of time. Regardless of our involvement in the Middle East i'm sure there would still be terrorist attacks and things would still be in the crapper. Especially with all this news of Iran. Sometimes things have to die out, especially with such a modernized world. Like I said I wish it wasn't this way and although it's a shame, it is this way. And there's not much to be done about it.

As for our troops, it pains me to see such hatred towards them. They are whether you like it or not they're protecting your safety in one way or another. For all the bad eggs there are, there are way more good ones. But people don't notice the good ones because people always focus on the negatives. Personally, I want big, tough, scary dudes fighting for our side. Wars aren't won with hugs and kisses, they're won by the men and women who are brave enough to do what most of us can't or wont. Not all of them join for the right reasons, some of them are probably in there just to kill and get money but it's irresponsible to think such a massive amount of personal can be psychologically micro-managed like that.

It would also be irresponsible and dangerous to completely pull out of these wars and it is childish to think that if we were to cease operations everything would be rainbows and sugar.

The point is, wars have to be fought, cultures and empires have to crumble, and people have to die. I for one am pretty damn grateful I live such a cozy life. Where I can tell you all my insignificant views that will inevitably cause hate towards me.

I don't know if this is the right forum, and I'd tell the mods to "feel free to move it" but I'm sure they'd do it without my permission. Which is totally fine by me.

I don't agree with the aspect that the US has to keep the lid on other countries uprisings and civil unrests.
Thats what the UN was created for.
Let the US step back, and the global community step up.
X

wars have to be fought

I'd say 95% of the time, no they don't.

They are whether you like it or not they're protecting your safety in one way or another.

How exactly? Can you elaborate on this?

Will people's daily lives and routines in the United States be fundamentally affected or changed if American troops leave Afghanistan?

Wars aren't won with hugs and kisses, they're won by the men and women who are brave enough to do what most of us can't or wont.

Such as what? Urinating on dead bodies?

I don't know what kind of psychological tests if any, the U.S military has for new recruits, but it seems to me that they're recruiting a rather large quota of sociopaths.

If not actively recruiting them, then they are certainly breeding them in Afghanistan.

reply to post by StopFearMongering
The point is, wars have to be fought, cultures and empires have to crumble, and people have to die. I for one am pretty damn grateful I live such a cozy life. Where I can tell you all my insignificant views that will inevitably cause hate towards me.



I agree that empires have to crumble but direct it against the US instead. Your empire have to crumble and change or it will destroy us all with it's corruption. You are the biggest problem not the solution to the world. Culture is fluent and you don't have any right to tell anybody else how they should live. Let people themselves decide what culture they want to live in. Your cozy life is being paid for by blood and labour of the third world. Wars do not have to be fought but are over resources. Your country is a big thug that have hired local thugs to steal the resources for your benifit. But one day you will probably have to pay for the karma. You are like the romans that was invaded by the barbarians when the Roman Goverment had become totaly corrupt.

Originally posted by Kram09

Wars aren't won with hugs and kisses, they're won by the men and women who are brave enough to do what most of us can't or wont.

Such as what? Urinating on dead bodies?

Dragging a dead decapitated westerner through the streets or hanging the burnt body while in a orgy of hate is so much more civil...

reply to post by MaximosPoena

Dragging a dead decapitated westerner through the streets or hanging the burnt body while in a orgy of hate is so much more civil...

The whole "They did it first!" or "They started it!" argument is quite shallow.

After all isn't the United States supposed to be the good guys? To have the high moral ground and be the bastion of freedom and human rights?

reply to post by StopFearMongering

As for our troops, it pains me to see such hatred towards them. They are whether you like it or not they're protecting your safety in one way or another. For all the bad eggs there are, there are way more good ones.

A lot of the perceived "hatred" for the troops is actually misdirected (or misinterpreted) disdain for the policymakers who put our troops in harms way in the ongoing global resource wars.

Those of us who oppose war simply want to see the troops wake up to the lies they are being fed!

The US gov't is not spreading "democracy" (our democracy is a puppet democracy anyway) - it is trying to maintain its grip within the global power structure, but the tighter the grip and the more we (the US) try to expand, the thinner we spread our power and slip further into economic turmoil with billions of wasted dollars.

So, saying you are thankful for the troops, etc, grateful for your cozy life, etc, does not raise any important issue whatsoever. You have basically said whatever keeps food on your table is justified because you're doing okay - the rest of the world can crumble around you.

Originally posted by Kram09
The whole "They did it first!" or "They started it!" argument is quite shallow.

Let me know when somebody makes that argument on this thread.

After all isn't the United States supposed to be the good guys?

This justifies beheading, burning and hanging of bodies how?

To have the high moral ground and be the bastion of freedom and human rights?

Nobody is clean nor have the moral high ground.
All sides are filthy.

reply to post by MaximosPoena

Let me know when somebody makes that argument on this thread.

Then what was the meaning of your original comment? So just because they do something disgusting the United States has to stoop to their level? No, beheading people and dragging them through the street is not more civilised. It's vile. But it seems you're using that as some kind of justification or reason for the marines urinating on the dead bodies.

reply to post by MaximosPoena

This justifies beheading, burning and hanging of bodies how?

I didn't say it justifies it. What I meant, was that the United States professes to be a champion of liberty and human rights, yet time and time again their actions speak otherwise and that in itself is hypocritical.

Originally posted by Kram09
No, beheading people and dragging them through the street is not more civilised. It's vile.

We can agree on that

But it seems you're using that as some kind of justification or reason for the marines urinating on the dead bodies.

Then what was the meaning of your original comment? You were the one who thought it wise to bring up the urination in your reply.

Originally posted by Kram09
What I meant, was that the United States professes to be a champion of liberty and human rights, yet time and time again their actions speak otherwise and that in itself is hypocritical.

So the actions of a few represent the whole?

Just like the images of those who are in an orgy of hate kicking and beheading westerns then stringing up their burnt bodies doesn't represent all of the ME.

Right?

reply to post by MaximosPoena


No you're right....well at least i'd like to think you are.

I think the soldier's minds get warped by many things they have to go through. However I always think a number of them are without doubt sociopaths to begin with.

reply to post by MaximosPoena

You were the one who thought it wise to bring up the urination in your first reply.

I know, I probably shouldn't have brought it up as it will only incite heated argument.

reply to post by apushforenlightment


I can't argue with that. Yes, eventually we will fall, and perhaps we should. But then again I think all cultures and empires should fall. My point is that these terrorists with radical views are being threatened not only by the US invading their land, but also other more developed countries who view them as savage or primitive. And those radicals have naturally violent opinions attack all countries who they feel threatened by. They're like weeds. If you don't kill them, they'll kill all your plants.

I thought I made all these points in my original post. Leaving them alone would be asinine. They would still attack us and others, and they're views would still be the same.

It's a shame the world can't be flowers and sunshine but (like I said in my original post) if it's not them, it's us.

Originally posted by StopFearMongering
reply to post by apushforenlightment

 

I can't argue with that. Yes, eventually we will fall, and perhaps we should. But then again I think all cultures and empires should fall. My point is that these terrorists with radical views are being threatened not only by the US invading their land, but also other more developed countries who view them as savage or primitive. And those radicals have naturally violent opinions attack all countries who they feel threatened by. They're like weeds. If you don't kill them, they'll kill all your plants.

I thought I made all these points in my original post. Leaving them alone would be asinine. They would still attack us and others, and they're views would still be the same.

It's a shame the world can't be flowers and sunshine but (like I said in my original post) if it's not them, it's us.

I think there are persons on all places of the world that are egoistic, tyranical and manicas. But from my point of view your capital is probably the mostly concentrated place of idiocy in this world. You can keep beliving the need for fighting and belive you are right in your duality world where it's either them or you. For some of the maniacs on both sides that can't stop hating or have other resons to want to continue war it certenly is a duality world. They want it. And if you let them continue their violence you will be just like the germans when tha nazi party ruled in germany. It's not really the maniacs who are so dangerous in this world because they are not the majority. It is the people that do accept crappy situation and are silent or just don't care that is so dangerous. It is your choice to not work for a better world and ignore the stupidety and corruption around you (from my point of view). What if this life is a test to see if you wil go after the ideal even if you will not succed since it is the right thing to do?

If you wanted to weed out religous fundamentalism then US should not have helped them in the first place. US might be creating temporary stability through violence for your companies so that they can get the resources they want but you are lossing the support of many people around the world and definetly in the middle east region. I live in Sweden and before I loved your culture and was very pro american and proIsrael and even was thinking about moving to the States. Now I hate your hypocracy with a vengence and think you need to have a second civil war because you have become like facist empire and your corruption is spreading. I will never go to America as long as US behaves like a crazy bully and I will try to avoid buying anything from your companies, since I feel that it is your companies that is ruling you.

You are even helping the religous fundamentalist get to power in Libya now. You actions are not consistent at all and the duality you belive in is for me only propaganda that your country is using to be able to do what they want. Your goal is not democracy or social development but money and resources. If they get democracy and social development then fine but if it is against what you want you will use CIA again to throw down any democracy you want either if it is good or bad.