Christianity is a religion based on love and forgiveness NOT hate and intolerance.

reply to post by I Want To Believe

I rarely attend church because it's filled with hypocrites, Pharisees and money-changers. I can can certainly see why people have such a bad attitude and dislike for Christians. Many of them are self-righteous and just, well, all around unlikable. This is not what Jesus taught. Being a Christian I follow the teachings of Jesus rather than Paul or John. I find that the teachings of Jesus are simple, straight-forward and easy to understand. We should all strive to be more like Jesus.

There is an interesting paradox with judgment seen here. The thread is one of avoiding judgment, yet the apparent judgment comes from your words toward the hypocrites in church. Do you see it? I'm not condemning you here at all. Just pointing out how truth is a paradox of sorts. Why? Truth is unchanging. We are in motion and are out of context with God in this world. I had a good post on this subject here. LINK

Solomon had this same cognitive dissonance in the book of Ecclesiastes. The misunderstanding comes from clearly seeing where we are in relation to God. We are fallen and totally out of tune with the harmony that comes from truth. Judgment of another person will happen if we speak words of truth in any manner. To say that the object delivering the message of the subject is judging is incorrect. Only truth can judge. When a person (object) delivers a good word from a subject like the laws of God, the subject judges according to the quality of what is said. If I use my own wisdom to judge another person, then I am judging them myself, apart from the truth of God by degree. Truth will judge when seen against our error. We are out of context with truth and cannot be in context. Some people more and some less depending. Solomon realized this in his lament of vanity and pride. Consider reading the link above. He knew truth, yet his life was a failure on many levels.

I understand where you are coming from and am not trying to judge you. It is impossible not to judge apart from revealing truth. The truth judges, yet it can be revealed in a kind way from a platform of love. Take this another way.

The verse you are referring to is, "Judge not lest you be judged." In the same measure you judge, you will be judged. This is truth. What does it mean? This reply is a good example.

***The thread says not to judge, but then you proceed to judge.***

Do you see it in the sentence I just typed? You judged and then an equal portion is given back. The meaning is obvious. I didn't judge you. I revealed the truth of your judgment as seen by law. We are seen by law when God looks at us. When we are covered in Christ, we are then seen in His righteousness. Truth again convicts us. God gives a gift we cannot earn. We demonstrate this in every word we speak.

When we judge the world by revealing it's reflection of truth, we are actually showing our own relation to the truth. 1 Corinthians 13 says we see in a mirror dimly. A person can't judge another apart from revealing it in themselves. This is a good thing rather than a bad thing. By reviewing the world around us and comparing one relationship to another, we are then judged by the same. We can grow or we can fight back. If we fight back (Judgment against another), we are in error with the truth. This is extremely hard to fight, as it is the same pride that caused our fall in the Garden. This allows a person to grow if the heart is humbled. We do this by seeing others from a mindset of equal need. Eventually, we start to see the world around us as equally in need to our own desperate nature. As we do this, we shift awareness to larger truths. Empathy develops.

The point is not to wound in our revelation of truth to others. Reproof is what we do for those we love in our family. When I see my son headed toward a cliff at 110 mph, I will reprove him with honest truth. The manner in which I do this reveals my judgment from the context of truth. If I do my job correctly, my communication preserves dignity. If I handle it in a harsh manner, I am equally judged. Either way, growth happens. The world is set to this outcome.

Ultimately, we work on our own character first. Second, we demonstrate this character to others as a witness of truth and not a judgment of our own pride. Third, we reveal truth from love, fully knowing that others will be judged by this truth equally.

In the end, Solomon realized what we all need to realize. No matter how much truth we express, we can't live up to it. This is precisely why Christ had to die for our fallen nature. There is only one way out and this is the best truth we can witness to others. Seek God in faith, love your brother and realize that we are all in need equally.

Originally posted by I Want To Believe
reply to post by NeoVain

 

I can certainly appreciate your point of view but it's not about the people being interesting or not. It's about the message and the message is a message of love and forgiveness. Do you have principles or ideals which you hold yourself to? I do. I follow the principles and ideals set forth by Jesus. Is that any more crazy than you following your principles and ideals? (Assuming you have any.) My religion is my concience and all I can be expected to do is follow it.

I choose love instead of fear.

I forgive instead of bearing hate.

i choose to understand instead of passing judgement.

Am i christian? no.

You see, that is just common sence you guys preach. You don´t need to waste time on the rest, or call yourself religious.

Free yourself

reply to post by Philodemus


I appreciate your thoughts and sentiment. Your post was quite encouraging. We are all the children of God whether we 'believe' or not.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Truth is neither judgmental nor non-judgemental. Truth just is. I was simply stating the truth. I have attended many churches and have had a bad experience at most of them. I will address the rest of your post later when I can collect my thoughts more easily. I am just clarifying my position and opinion. But I did enjoy reading your post.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Perhaps the Christians making these mistakes have not yet fully grown in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ? Heck, Paul in writing to the Corinthians called them "brothers", yet they were suing each other, getting drunk on the communion wine, and having communal sex with one another. Being born again by the Holy Spirit doesn't mean we turn into Christ immediately like some Transformer, it means we learn to be like Christ by the guidance of the indwelling of His Spirit. We still make mistakes, and a mature person in the faith will admit they make mistakes and seek forgiveness when possible.

It seems to be a paradox for the Christian in many ways. If a Christian shares a good word in a thread, there will inevitably be someone who replies with a false statement based on an easily seen error. This is then wrapped in hate speech against God. Here is where most people see judgment. The Christian will answer with a verse contradicting the statements of the response. This is not judgment, it's clarification of truth. How is this message communicated? This is the difference. We are all in the same state of sin and pride, even the Christians. Faith seems a bit hypocritical until we see from the other person's perspective.

Each person in any discussion will present a version of truth, then defend this truth from the pride of belief. The person with the higher truth typically rises in the discussion. What becomes of the person who is shown to be clearly in error with truth? That depends on their ability to swallow their pride or see there own error. We all see the world differently, but truth sees us one way. When it's presented clearly, it judges. When it is presented incorrectly, it can be clarified by someone with a clear understanding. In the end, we are not judging each other, we're sifting truth from error. I think this is the purpose of ATS when it comes down to it.

What stands in the way? Pride. It's always going to be the proper answer in an context discussing truth. Until we see that truth is governed, we fail to see the Governor. All truth has a root and a basis of foundation. What are proverbs? They are oversimplifications of natural law.

Example:

Proverbs 1

8 Listen, my son, to your father’s instruction
and do not forsake your mother’s teaching.

Is this true. YES. Is it always true? NO. This is the error we make. A truth is only true in context. We are out of context in this life. Why? In a perfect world, we have perfect mothers. This proverb is correct. In our world, we have mothers that teach kids to have babies at preteens to steal state aid. In context, this proverb must be seen as incorrect.

A Christian will always speak from the context of perfect truth in a world of imperfect quality. Thus, the need for salvation.

Originally posted by I Want To Believe
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Truth is neither judgmental nor non-judgemental. Truth just is. I was simply stating the truth. I have attended many churches and have had a bad experience at most of them. I will address the rest of your post later when I can collect my thoughts more easily. I am just clarifying my position and opinion. But I did enjoy reading your post.

Sure. Make sure you know I'm not judging you on this. I am just trying to clarify something that is very clear to me. Consider my last post.

when the love of Christ fully enters in your heart, the light will just naturally shine upon for the world to see and to guide other people out of darkness.

it's easy to judge, that is why the good Lord Jesus Christ commands us not to... we are to love, to hope, and to have faith, with love being the most important of all... and why is that?

the group of people targeted by the OP are still learning.... and still in the process of FULLY accepting Jesus Christ as their savior... they are still in the process of denying themselves and taking up the cross.

if everyone understood that people are still learning, i think love is just inevitable.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Proverbs 1

8 Listen, my son, to your father’s instruction
and do not forsake your mother’s teaching.

Perhaps its actually saying listen to your Father(God)
And do not forsake your mothers teaching(the physical world)

Originally posted by NeoVain

Originally posted by I Want To Believe
reply to post by NeoVain

 

I can certainly appreciate your point of view but it's not about the people being interesting or not. It's about the message and the message is a message of love and forgiveness. Do you have principles or ideals which you hold yourself to? I do. I follow the principles and ideals set forth by Jesus. Is that any more crazy than you following your principles and ideals? (Assuming you have any.) My religion is my concience and all I can be expected to do is follow it.

I choose love instead of fear.

I forgive instead of bearing hate.

i choose to understand instead of passing judgement.

Am i christian? no.

You see, that is just common sence you guys preach. You don´t need to waste time on the rest, or call yourself religious.

Free yourself

I agree.

Although Christianity does give you messages to become a good person. It's up to the people to follow it and like you. I follow a good life without religion.

Basically what I'm trying to say is we shouldn't expect someone to be a good person because he is a Christian. A person should be judged only by his actions.

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
when the love of Christ fully enters in your heart, the light will just naturally shine upon for the world to see and to guide other people out of darkness.

it's easy to judge, that is why the good Lord Jesus Christ commands us not to... we are to love, to hope, and to have faith, with love being the most important of all... and why is that?

the group of people targeted by the OP are still learning.... and still in the process of FULLY accepting Jesus Christ as their savior... they are still in the process of denying themselves and taking up the cross.

if everyone understood that people are still learning, i think love is just inevitable.

If you don't mind, I'll use your post to illustrate. By saying that we are "to love, to hope, and to have faith, with love being the most important of all," you judge someone. By the definition we are using, judgment is condemning those who do not love, hope, or possess faith as an aspect of their life. The definition we are using for judgment is incorrect. You are speaking a subject that judges when the other person is out of context with it. You speak from a heart of love, yet the other person is judged by the truth you share if they are out of context.

This is the mistake we make as Christians. We should never feel that we are judging anyone by sharing faith and expressing truth. We uphold this as a primary cause. The subject will judge. This is most definitely truth. There is no law broken from God by upholding truth and witnessing it in our words, deeds and actions. This is not us judging.

I agree totally with what you say by the way.

We are all degrees on the scale of knowledge. We can only love others by helping them further up the scale. This requires reproof and witness of the truth in a kind way.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Proverbs 1

8 Listen, my son, to your father’s instruction
and do not forsake your mother’s teaching.

Perhaps its actually saying listen to your Father(God)
And do not forsake your mothers teaching(the physical world)

Knowing Solomon, this is accurate. The entire Bible is a symbol of what it actually represents. Baptism is a good example. It is our immersion into the water of reality. The temple veil is what keeps us from seeing God in our mind as fact. The temple vessel is our body. The cleansing of the temple with the tools of the priest is what we do by living in the water. Our arms, eyes, hands, feet and so on are the implements of the sacrifice. It's all a symbol of what it represents.

reply to post by I Want To Believe


Youre missing one thing. Were not supposed to be tolerant of wickedness and condone sin.

reply to post by biggmoneyme

and this is why Christianity doesn't produce godly men. It produces men who can quote scripture at most, and unfortunately that's what a godly man is to most. The idea that you can become like Christ by "moulding" yourself to his image.

And you didn't listen to what I said.

I didn't say the believer could become like Christ by "molding" themselves to His image. The Holy Spirit is what changes a man, the Holy Spirit is the Potter, we are the clay. Clay cannot mold itself.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


What one person considers wickedness and sin isn't always the same with another....

Some consider other religions "of the devil"... and wicked or sinful...

Personally i would consider those people wicked or sinful before the other religions they condem...

when you judge someone, what do you do?

you uphold them to a standard, and test whether they fail the standard or not.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

i will try my best to portray two scenarios:

scenario 1:
a bum issmoking a cigarette with a couple of beers on his side, a christian walks by and says: "your going to hell for smoking and drinking!"

scenario 2:
a bum smoking a cigarette with a couple of beers on his side, a christian walks by, stops, sits down with the man and converses with him a little. he sees the obvious pain in the homeless man and hopes to just share a little love with the man. he picks himself up, and then picks up the homeless man. the christian man that truly loves Christ shares the love of Christ with the homeless man. the christian and homeless man get something to eat together. the christian's love inspires the homeless man to realize that he is no longer homeless, but in the courts of our Father.

i believe scenario 2 is what we call righteous judgement. the christian man saw that the homeless man is between a rock and a hard place. he understood that person is struggling, and just as the good Lord picked him up, he picks up that man, and brings that man back to Christ. i believe these two scenarios can be applied to any situation in life.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas

i believe scenario 2 is what we call righteous judgement. the christian man saw that the homeless man is between a rock and a hard place. he understood that person is struggling, and just as the good Lord picked him up, he picks up that man, and brings that man back to Christ. i believe these two scenarios can be applied to any situation in life.

Yes, we are not to look at the outside appearances. Don't look at how someone is dressed, look at their heart. Do they love Jesus or not? Do not ever judge with the intent to condemn, but on the other hand how can we exhort without first judging? The key is judging to exhort, instead of judging to condemn.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by I Want To Believe

 

Youre missing one thing. Were not supposed to be tolerant of wickedness and condone sin.

i understand this point of view... i provide a counterpoint, we are ALL sinners:
John 8:7: So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

i know the pharisees were asking Jesus about what he would do to the woman who was found committing adultery. when we take upon ourselves the roles and judgement of God, anguish arises. what did Jesus tell the adulterer? "Sin no more." without darkness, how could we appreciate the light? sometimes, sin makes a person suffer, and sometimes that suffering turns into passion for Christ. who are we to judge?

reply to post by DelayedChristmas

i believe scenario 2 is what we call righteous judgement.

I believe scenario 2 is not judgement at all... its because you did not judge him that you chose to help... because you knew it was right...

To judge someone is to form an opinion of that person... Not helping someone in need.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


i have to do a little more research into exhorting, but from my opinion, i think exhorting can only be achieved from one member to another member of the body of Christ. if that person doesn't accept Christ as their savior and you try to exhort that person, that person does not know of what God demands of us, and will not heed to your words.

matthew 7:6: Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

reply to post by Akragon


it is righteous judgement: that person is not condemned to hell because he smoke cigarettes and drink beer, but that person is in at a hard place in his life and using these substances to cope with his situation, and the Christian rightfully judged that the homeless man is struggling. he rightfully judges that the bum is not the devil, but just a soul trying to go back to God. maybe God used that Christian man to bring the homeless person back to God because that Christian rightfully judged.