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The Buddha Bucket - the Oseberg grave

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posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 10:36 AM
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In 1904 a Viking ship grave was uncovered in Norway. Dated to the 7th century AD.

The Oseberg Ship

The Oseberg ship - Wiki







With the well preserved ship were found a large number of artifacts despite the site having been robbed a thousand or more year before. One was as an interesting piece the so called Buddha bucket









One of the most interesting Oseberg discoveries is the so-called Buddha-bøtte or Buddha bucket. It is a pail with two identical figures forming the joints of the pail handle. Both figures represent a man seated in the Lotus position. His head is flat. His face with closed eyes has a peaceful and sunken expression. The man’s breast is ornamented with red and yellow champlevé enamel as well as panels of millefiori. Four swastikas on the enamel decoration have the shape common in the Buddhist tradition, in which this symbol represents auspiciousness and good fortune



Who is the person represented on the Oseberg bucket, if not Buddha from Asia? Is it a meditating Viking? A Norse god? This remains a mystery


The evidence seems to point to a manufacturing in Europe but what was the model for the artist and where did he find out about Buddhist symbology?




edit on 10/1/12 by Hanslune because: Added age of ship to post




posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 10:47 AM
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It depends on how old the ship is, and the bucket. We must remember that the Gautama Buddha was born about 2500 years ago. Even before then, pre-Buddhist symbolism existed, and icons of what we may consider to be Buddha or Buddhist may be pre-Buddhist. Remember that in Hindu there existed the concept of buddhas, long before the Self Enlightened One was even a forethought to his parents.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 10:53 AM
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reply to post by ManjushriPrajna
 


The date was in the links but have added it to the post, 7th century AD



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 10:57 AM
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Howdy Hans
That's very interesting, to my under educated eye the style of the figure looks Celtic .
Maybe the craftsman used a now long lost piece of a Indian art/trade good as a model.
Also I firmly believe that Christ travelled to India with a caravan in his youth and became a buddhist and actually acheived enlightenment at a monastary in Nepal. He was venerated as the Buddhist saint Issa and returned to Palestine when he was in his late 20's .
Since Ireland was christianized very early could this work be an example of a lost tradition of how Christ was viewed.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 10:59 AM
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It was in the 7th century when Emperor Gaozong began to allow the building of Christian monastaries in over 300 prefectures. It's possible many Buddhist artifacts made their way to Europe somehow between then and when Christianity was first brought to China.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by punkinworks10
Also I firmly believe that Christ travelled to India with a caravan in his youth and became a buddhist and actually acheived enlightenment at a monastary in Nepal. He was venerated as the Buddhist saint Issa and returned to Palestine when he was in his late 20's .


Howdy Punkinworks

Is that from 'The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ', by Nicolas Notovitch?

Yes I would think a European artist got hold of a piece from India which isn't that unlikely given the trade routes of the time.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:24 AM
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The clincher would have been if the little figure had an urna, or topknot on his head. However, the flat spot suggests that there may have been something there that broke off.

Still, I wonder why the artist would have chosen the figure as an ornamentation on a bucket, rather than just having it as a freestanding statute on its own. So you have to wonder if the artist understood what the figure was supposed to depict, or whether they just thought it was interesting. Like using a crucifix as a coat hanger.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Hans,
Yes but no, I originally saw a documentary by a French filmmaker
He went to the monastary in the Hindu kush mtns, where he started his studies, then to a shrine in the Punjab that is dedicated to him , then the monastary in Nepal where he attained enlightenment and his writings are still kept and studied. He finished up at his grave in Pakistan where Issa returned after surviving being crucified.
There are also contemporary images of him that have survived.
The most interesting part of it all is that basis of Jesus's ministry in Palestine is very much the same message that Issa preached in and around the sub continent.

I just found the work you referenced today and can't wait to read it.
On a related side note , several years ago I read an article by a woman who was a historical researcher for the Vatican. Her whole career was focussed on the crucifixion and resurrection. She came to the conclusion that Christ didn't die on the the cross, but was saved by the Jewish underground, of whom "longinus" was a sympathizer. Her evidence was very compelling, a mosaic in the ruins of church in Syria that dates to the 1 st century that shows Christ on the cross, then being removed and prepared for burial, the body placed in the cave and the stone covering the cave in place . Then the next panel shows Christ being carried out of the cave at night. Then she made the observation that the snail who's poison is used by voodoo practitioners to make zombies,has a cousin in the med and it poison was used in the holy land at the time. She was excommunicated by the church when she refused to back down on her theory.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:26 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 

Any human image represented as a man meditating sitting in crossed legs pose need not be Buddha or anything connected to Buddha,

The cross legged eyes closed meditative pose is very well known in the Indian Sub Continent - The Hindu God Shiva mediated in the same Pose, Most of the Sages/Rishis meditated in the same pose.

There is a representation of Swastikas on the chest of the figure, so it can be interpreted as related to Hinduism too.

Where does Buddha come into the picture??

Only people who doesnt have an understanding of the mythologies and cultures of Asia would give such names to such objects..
edit on 10/1/12 by coredrill because: edited for typo


hey Hans, the above line is addressed at those who named the artifact Buddha Bucket..not you as the OP..
edit on 10/1/12 by coredrill because: just to inform hans that it is not aimed at him..lol



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 12:19 AM
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Originally posted by coredrill

Any human image represented as a man meditating sitting in crossed legs pose need not be Buddha or anything connected to Buddha,

hey Hans, the above line is addressed at those who named the artifact Buddha Bucket..not you as the OP..
edit on 10/1/12 by coredrill because: just to inform hans that it is not aimed at him..lol


ah ha, actually considering the European mind set in the Edwardian age I'm surprized they didn't give it a more denigrating name that just Buddha Bucket!



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 06:54 AM
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Originally posted by ManjushriPrajna
It was in the 7th century when Emperor Gaozong began to allow the building of Christian monastaries in over 300 prefectures. It's possible many Buddhist artifacts made their way to Europe somehow between then and when Christianity was first brought to China.


I think that you are spot on, but I think this piece is by Saxon artists and simply influenced by Chinese examples. Similarly artifacts have been found in the Ukraine, dating from about 2500 years ago, clearly showing ideologies were passing across Eurasia.

This piece is stunning but stylistically very Saxon to my eye, so 7th century would be about right.

If you scroll down the page in the link, there are some late Saxon/early Norman carvings, which while not of the same subject matter, display a similar style, though assimilatory.

www.greatenglishchurches.co.uk...

Note that the church itself is a victorian structure, but the carvings are taken from previous churches on the site and perhaps others in the region. It was a monastery rich region before the Vikings came and flattened them...and then the Normans...then Henry VIII...then Cromwell...and the odd fire and plague in between. All that is left of the Christianity of the Saxons, and their predecessors is fragmentary. We know far more about the Romans in some respects.



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 07:27 AM
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reply to post by Omphale
 


I believe that you have probably just given the reason for it - it was probably picked up on voyages. It is well known that "Vikings" travelled the lakes and rivers of Europe and beyond rather than simply sticking to the sea. As such, this provided a perfect opportunity for lightening raids for booty.

Later on in the Viking Age, there are accounts of Harald Hardrada working as a mercenary (effectively) for the King of Kiev - this shows the vikings knew how to use the rivers to get to the Ukraine area.

Much as i favour fanciful ideas and explanations, in reality it is usually the obvious that holds true (unfortunately!).



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 07:30 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 


I agree, yes.

And hail fellow Eboracum-ite.



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by Omphale
 


I believe that you have probably just given the reason for it - it was probably picked up on voyages. It is well known that "Vikings" travelled the lakes and rivers of Europe and beyond rather than simply sticking to the sea. As such, this provided a perfect opportunity for lightening raids for booty.

Later on in the Viking Age, there are accounts of Harald Hardrada working as a mercenary (effectively) for the King of Kiev - this shows the vikings knew how to use the rivers to get to the Ukraine area.

Much as i favour fanciful ideas and explanations, in reality it is usually the obvious that holds true (unfortunately!).


The Vikings or Rus and known by other names in particular the Varangians. Who in a period later than the bucket traveled the rivers of Eastern Europe. There was probably such trade before then too but the evidence for it is less pronounced.

Wiki summary on the Varangians


Varangians roamed the river systems and portages of Gardariki, as Rus' lands were known in Norse sagas. They controlled the Volga trade route (Route from the Varangians to the Arabs), connecting Baltic to the Caspian Sea, and the Dnieper trade route (Route from the Varangians to the Greeks) leading to the Black Sea and Constantinople.



Varangian trade routes



So important (and war like) were the Varangians that Byzantine Emperor formed his own mercenary unit of them

Varangian Guards



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 10:31 AM
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Beautiful piece -- I'm scurrying through here and haven't time for a longer view of the pictures, but the position reminds me of the standard "braided" Celtic art. I've been enjoying your "blast from the past" posts!



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


The Varangian Guard were comprised of many different nationalities. During the time of Harald Hardrada they were predominantly of Viking descent but certainly not exclusively. In later years they were predominantly Anglo Saxon (for a while) and other nations also had a crack at being the Byzantine glory boys!

Some Norse and Swedish sagas actually discuss early voyages down the Danube, etc. The Vikings were raiding Lindisfarne in the 700's so it is entirely plausible and possible that in the proposed time frame for "the bucket" they had already been down the Danube and many of the other major rivers, such as the Volga.

Also, and this is usually lost in reference to the Vikings, they were not predominantly conquerors - they were traders who just so happened to be extremely good at fighting and therefore not bothered about the dangers of sailing to other places to trade.

Edit to add, the original crusade (forerunner) was actually undertaken by Hardrada - he achieved a level of fame and fear amongst the Arab population that wasn't matched by any until Richard the Lionheart.
edit on 11-1-2012 by Flavian because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by Omphale
reply to post by Flavian
 


I agree, yes.

And hail fellow Eboracum-ite.



Ave and hail to my fellow Yorkie



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by Hanslune
 


Also, and this is usually lost in reference to the Vikings, they were not predominantly conquerors - they were traders who just so happened to be extremely good at fighting and therefore not bothered about the dangers of sailing to other places to trade.



Yes 'trade and sword' with a bit of colonization thrown in to make it interesting



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by Byrd
Beautiful piece -- I'm scurrying through here and haven't time for a longer view of the pictures, but the position reminds me of the standard "braided" Celtic art. I've been enjoying your "blast from the past" posts!


One does get tired of the repetitive fringe themes so I will be doing some of the lesser known 'real' things in archaelogy with also an attempt to show those that I've actually been to or studied.
edit on 11/1/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 06:44 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


"Symbology"....one of the most often used words that is not actually a word. I use it quite a bit myself.

THis is a very interesting piece. It is seeming that the two societies had an intermingling somewhere, huh? What I hate is that I bet some folks have (and likely will continue to) use this to prop up the Aryan Invasion bs.



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