Gay marriage is a threat to humanity, claims Pope

A number of people here are trying to justify homosexual acts by pointing to examples of "gayness" within the animal kingdom. Do we now consider animals as role models for human behaviour? Can you not see how backward this thinking is? As humans, we strive to emulate God, not beasts. We look toward the spiritual, not the carnal for guidance. For this reason, the Pope condemns all acts of hedonism: it diverts us from focusing on the eternal Divinity within and degrades us to living in a world that is finite and profane. Can you understand this?

reply to post by 1nOne


Dont get me wrong i do see what you are saying, and i understand the thinking many people have on such topics, I was raised with a catholic mother and Christian father amongst other things - the point is we are more like animals than alot care for , we strive on instincts and survival - are these feelings genetic? biological? who knows but at the end of the day "gayness" as you say has been around in all species for thousands of years, to be honest i think the pope should get his own house in order before even trying to condemn anyone else for what he deems "sins". At the end of the day i think what he says is nonsense, gay marriage will not be the end of humanity....im afraid in alot of people humanity left them long ago, i would rather people be in happy and loving relationships, who cares if its same sex, its not for us to judge anyone. Everyone has the right to be happy, everyone has the right to live their own lives - the backward thinking is by those people who cannot see past their own noses and own little bubbles, the world has changed, i did not elect the pope, i do not follow the pope so to be honest anything he says means absolutely squat to me.

Originally posted by 1nOne
A number of people here are trying to justify homosexual acts by pointing to examples of "gayness" within the animal kingdom. Do we now consider animals as role models for human behaviour? Can you not see how backward this thinking is?

This is indeed backwards. However I do not know if the Pope or others take this far enough in explanation or they are censored by the bulk of the media. I do know that certain views and understandings about this and other topics are not spoken about even by so called conservative media.

We are not here to become as are base animals. The Word is for this very purpose..to prevent the people from becoming as base animals or the nations surrounding Ancient Israel.....simply because the Nations surrounding Ancient Israel were already doing this of base animals particularly around their holidays and festivals. And yet even Ancient Israel fell into the seduction of this kind of base animalistic behavior...as they privily adopted the practices of the nations surrounding them. So too we do this very behavior today....and attempt to glory in it.


What the public schools and media do is totally avoid this history and understanding in lieu of human self glorification.

People are more than sexuality and sexual orientation. For to Define ones self by the non standard of sexuality and sexual orientation is to declare to the world what an untutored, unthinking, uneducated person or individual you are...both hetero and homo. You have to be educated into such stupidity to think this is normal.

For people are so much more than their sexuality.

People who knew...defined themselves by their lineage, their occupation, or some work they had done and left to posterity. Never by their sexuality or sexual orientation. Once you know this history you realize how ignorant both our leadership and also the public school system has become. So too with the media out here for not teaching this pattern to the public.

I am not speaking here against peoples sexuality. I am speaking against total ignorance. For people are so much more than sexuality.

I am not interested in defining myself by my sexuality or sexual orientation. This is my primary beef with the homosexual community. They only have this one non standard by which to identify and glorify themselves.

However to be fair about this ...it is also a huge problem with the hetero community as well. For here too many are only define themselves by their sexuality/sexual orientation. All you have to do is watch them on any Friday or Saturday night at the local "Meat Lockers."

I don't approve of people like this who only have this one feature by which to define themselves..hetero or homo.


People should define themselves by their name/lineage, their occupations, or some great work they have done and left to posterity. Never by their sexuality. You have to go to public school and get a huge dose of ignorance to become this naturally dumb...just like the wild animals out here.

We are not here to become wild animals.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
For people are so much more than their sexuality.

I've been trying to say this all along! Why are we so concerned with who people are having sex with? It doesn't matter, because people are more than that! If two men want to officially announce their committment to each other by getting married, that's more than just about sex, isn't it? It's about love. Love is not just sex. Love is caring for someone when they're sick, love is sticking by someone when they need you. Love is staying with someone through good times and bad.

Yes, there are gays who flaunt their sexuality, and I'm not crazy about that either. But those people usually aren't interested in committment and marriage. What about decent, law-abiding gays who want nothing more than to have a life-time partner, a home, and maybe a family? That goes beyond sex. But anti-gays keep bringing sex back into it. An anti-gay might see two men with wedding rings simply holding hands (not having sex, just holding hands), and instead of saying "how nice to see two people who obviously care for each other", they will say " how disgusting - I just know they're having gay sex tonight". That's not the gay men making it all about sex -- that's the anti-gay doing it.

And the reason people bring up the animal kingdom is because it represents nature - thus it is "natural". The point is, it is natural to have a percentage of homosexuality in a group environment. Natural means God-made.

reply to post by ronishia

I've been away from this thread for awhile, I just came back to see how it was going. I freely admit that I have not looked over the last several pages, so my opinions may have been recently expressed.

As a matter of fact, I'm going to post, for the third time in this thread, the totality of the Pope's remarks on same sex relationships from the speech the OP is talking about.

In addition to a clear goal, that of leading young people to a full knowledge of reality and thus of truth, education needs settings. Among these, pride of place goes to the family, based on the marriage of a man and a woman. This is not a simple social convention, but rather the fundamental cell of every society. Consequently, policies which undermine the family threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself. The family unit is fundamental for the educational process and for the development both of individuals and States; hence there is a need for policies which promote the family and aid social cohesion and dialogue. It is in the family that we become open to the world and to life and, as I pointed out during my visit to Croatia, "openness to life is a sign of openness to the future".

Please read it. Do you see what the reporter has done? You are being misled. The Pope said

policies which undermine the family threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself.

Do you disagree with him? Who could?

I agree with you that we have instincts, like greed, violence, hatred. The point is to not act on those things, to learn to be human. You say as much yourself when you say

im afraid in alot of people humanity left them long ago

That's my point, thank you for agreeing with me. It's important as you point out, to put away the animal and take up the human.

Everyone has the right to be happy

Whatever can this mean? I'm not happy right at the moment I'm typing this, has someone deprived me of my "right?" Some people spend most of their lives unhappy, is there an Office of Happiness they can go to? Or, are you saying that people have the right to do whatever they want, without criticism, if they think that will make them happy? I think that's what you're saying, but I'm not sure that's widely agreed to.

Many people don't have any realationship to the Pope, yet they still turn out in hundreds of thousands when he speaks. They see the truth, the holiness, the centuries, and the God of love he represents. Look again at what he said, he's not hateful. I don't think you are either.

reply to post by charles1952


i did read his statement in full and was responding to the more ignorant, by my saying that "people have the right to be happy" lets clarify if a man chooses his mate and its another man, this man makes him happy and content & feel worthwhile (and all that comes from relationships) then what right does that give anyone to destroy that happiness? i do agree with most of what you have said, but i do feel that alot of people need to open their minds and step outwith the bubble alot of people seem to live in, and stop using religion as an excuse to vent, yes we are all humans but we all still run on basic 'animal' instincts.

Alot of people seem to take the media's typings as gospel and fail to realise that alot of the times they (the media) pick and choose what they want to post, often taking alot of what is said way out of context. i still believe the church has to upgrade their thinking to modern times, as god himself apparently said " dont judge lest you be judged" anyways am rambling now lol

reply to post by ronishia

Dear ronishia,

Thanks for the response and clarification. I apologize for implying you had not read the Pope's words, that was impolite of me. And may I say that your "rambling" makes more sense than many posts I've seen?

I agree completely that we should "stop using religion as an excuse to vent."

I'm a little worried about the idea that the Church has to upgrade it's teachings to modern times. That sounds a little like telling the truth of an idea by when it was popular. The ideas popular now, like homosexuality, have to be approved of. The same ideas were not popular years ago, so by the same test, they should have been rejected then.

This is, basically, society telling the Church "We'll tell you what's right and wrong, you stay out of our lives." Which is the same as "whatever we want to do is right, whatever we don't want to do is wrong. We are the final moral authority." I've got to admit, that scares me a little.

As far as the "don't judge," I largely agree with you. But the job of the Church and the Pope, among others, is to remind people of Jesus, the Bible, and the truths that have been discovered and tested over centuries. The Church isn't judging as much as reminding people that they will be judged.

And you accuse yourself of rambling???

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by impressme
The Pope has no business making such discriminating comments against any group of people.
Perhaps the Pope should have read what Christ taught about judging other men.

And what was it, exactly, that the Pope said that you disagree with? What discriminating comment did he make that the OP is referencing?

Eric

Originally posted by charles1952
I'm a little worried about the idea that the Church has to upgrade it's teachings to modern times. That sounds a little like telling the truth of an idea by when it was popular. The ideas popular now, like homosexuality, have to be approved of. The same ideas were not popular years ago, so by the same test, they should have been rejected then.

This is, basically, society telling the Church "We'll tell you what's right and wrong, you stay out of our lives." Which is the same as "whatever we want to do is right, whatever we don't want to do is wrong. We are the final moral authority." I've got to admit, that scares me a little.

I think there is precedence for the Church modifying it's teachings - take slavery, for example.

en.wikipedia.org...

Also, I found this article about a Cardinal in 2010, who called for changes in the Church's position regarding homosexuality and divorce. It seems to me that he was greatly influenced by public opinion. I realize he is not the Pope, but if other high-ranking officials start to agree with him, we may see modifications in the Church's official position. It certainly is possible.

articles.latimes.com...

I laughed so hard at the popes statement, is he serious? This statement coming from a kiddy fiddler is a joke.

Does the pope not realise that hetero marriages nearly always breakdown these days? Please correct me wrong but i doubt Mr and Mrs Jones had their marriage wrecked because Mr and Mr Smith got married. I doubt the terrorist threats happen because Mr and Mr Smith got married, I don't think the child in Africa are dying os starvation because Mr and Mr Smith got married.

I wish I could visit the 'Holy See' and give him a slap across the chops just for being an idiot.

reply to post by kaylaluv

Dear kaylaluv,

Your're wonderful! Thank you.

I hadn't thought of the issue of slavery, and I'm glad you brought it up. I don't suppose you happen to know of any more issues like that? Not that you'd have to. If the Church reverses its teaching in one area, then it's absolutely fair to ask why it doesn't change in other areas.

I skimmed through that Wiki article and found it very interesting and informative. I did notice that several Catholic writers were mentioned who believed that the Church has not reversed its teachings. I suppose it's still up in the air whether it did or not.

But I recall one bit of excitement several years ago that might apply here. The papers wrote headlines like "Pope OKs Condom Use." If i remember correctly, the Pope was talking about the high STD rate in Africa and was telling male prostitutes that, if they were going to be having sex with other men then it was better that they use a condom rather than have unprotected sex. So was the Pope approving contraception and changing Church teaching? Not really, but it sure looked like that for a minute.

I wonder, and I don't know the history or the Church's position, so don't quote me, if the position of the Church on slavery is like that. Might they have been saying, "Yes, we know the countries of the world have slaves and we're not going to be able to stop that right now, but they must be treated properly if you have them?" Again, I don't know for sure, but I'm not yet convinced that the Church has reversed it's teaching. Changed, maybe. Reversed, no.

About the homosexuality article, I agree that if all the Cardinals agreed with him, there would be changes. (Actually, it would be more like an upheaval or hurricane) I would not suggest looking for quick change, however. The Jesuits have had a pretty political history in the last 60 years or so. They led the Liberation Theology movement in South America, which has been solidly condemned. That, and their other recent positions have made them a little less than welcome in policy circles in the Vatican.

I have heard people call the present Pope conservative. The Jesuits are at least as liberal as he is, probably more so.

Thanks very much for bringing those things up. I really have to spend more time looking at the slavery issue. thanks again.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by orangetom1999


Yes, Orangetom1999: my point exactly! We must focus on those qualities which distinguish us from the animals lest we become one. Perhaps the Pope could have explained it better.

Originally posted by isaac7777

Originally posted by grahag

Originally posted by isaac7777
So basically most of the people here want others to be tolerant of gays, but when someone else is against gay marriage, they lash out, and are intolerant. Kinda hypocritical dont you think?

P.S-Im indifferent about others being gay, doesnt matter to me. But I dont like the fact that for thousands of years, marriage has been between a man and woman. I, and many others, want it to remain the same. Call it a civil union, whatever dont really care.

P.S.S-Yes i know im gonna get flamed for my opinions.

That is one of the responsibilities of having a public opinion. You get to take the criticism as well. The history of marriage pre-dates Christianity and even religion. Gay folks have been getting married for as long as marriage has been around. For Christians to come in and take "ownership" of marriage is irresponsible and hypocritical.

Again, the church speaking out on homosexuality is about as hypocritical as it gets. If you don't agree with it, that's fine, but when you try to stop someone from doing it when it literally has no effect on your personal life at all, that's just evil.

If God created mankind and homosexuals were included as His creation, who could question that he made a mistake? Sounds like someone's not a true Christian.

I may not be homosexual, but I don't have a problem with someone being homosexual. The only reason that I can see homosexual marriage having an effect on the general population is if they were so good at it and happy, it'd make the loveless marriages of some straight people stick out like a sore thumb.

The truth hurts sometimes I suppose.

First off, God doesnt make mistakes. Hes perfect, omnipotent, omnipresent, whatever. So thats the first thing. Secondly, i have no problem with homosexuals, i have no problems with two gay people having unions. Thats their choice, not mine, they can do whatever they want. But you cant call it marriage. You tell me gay people have been getting married forever, can you tell me a case of that in 1000 b.c? Were you there? Calling my beliefs evil is just ridiculous, because I can say just the same about yours.. And finally, i have no problem with criticism, i have problems with hypocrites.

Oh and can you tell me how the church speaking against homosexuality is hypocritical? Im not catholic, so Im not a fan of the catholic church, but thats ridiculous saying that.
P.S-To the person who called me ignorant because of my beliefs*, thank you for proving my point

edit on 11-1-2012 by isaac7777 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-1-2012 by isaac7777 because: (no reason given)

There are all kinds of examples from homosexual marriage throughout written history and a quick search of ancient gay marriage will bring up a number of topics for you to read through. It's well documented.

And what else would you call it if I told you that YOU couldn't be married because only Gay marriages are valid. You can be together, but you and your significant other can't be married. To me, that's evil. You're two consenting adults and you should be able to get married and have all the legal rights that is afforded through that process. It hurts no one else. To deny someone's rights because you don't like it is selfish and evil.

And the Catholic Church, (I'm a former Roman Catholic, mind you), is hypocritical speaking against gay marriage because they have quite the large problem with pedophilia in their priesthood that they've tried to sweep under the rug. They really don't have any ground to stand on when it comes to morals. I won't even go over all the atrocities that they've committed over the years in the name of God and Christ.

And then finally, if God doesn't make mistakes, then where did homosexuals come from? He made man and all creatures of the air, land, and sea. Who are YOU or ANYONE to question the will of God?

Originally posted by Traydor
I laughed so hard at the popes statement, is he serious? This statement coming from a kiddy fiddler is a joke.
I wish I could visit the 'Holy See' and give him a slap across the chops just for being an idiot.

And what statement by the Pope was it that provoked your laughter?

I'm just curious what it was in his address that you thought deserved a slap across the chops?

I mean, it's safe to assume that you read his original statement and you're not reacting to the article alone, right? 'Cause that would be idiotic and we know how you feel about idiots and slapping.

Eric

Originally posted by Garfee
reply to post by PharohGnosis

 

You prove your god exists and hates homos and I'll stop buttfking guys right that very second.

Yup your right, the Pope should not say the things he does about the gays. it's not the gays fault they have a sickness and chemical imbalance.

reply to post by charles1952


The Church has changed it's positions numerous times. What they haven't changed are dogmatic matters of faith. Doctrinal matters are often (which is a relative term for a 2000 year old institution) reexamined.

Doctrine has evolved and changed over time and I would assume that positions on slavery would be included.

Doctrinal changes include priestly celibacy, lenten observances and other matters that have not been claimed as infallible by the Magisterium or spoken Ex Cathedra.

(quick note: I'm writing this off the cuff for discussions sake. That's my layman's take on things)

Eric

Originally posted by ReefMan

Originally posted by Garfee
reply to post by PharohGnosis

 

You prove your god exists and hates homos and I'll stop buttfking guys right that very second.

Yup your right, the Pope should not say the things he does about the gays.

it's not the gays fault they have a sickness and chemical imbalance.

I'm afraid I cannot make sense of what you said having any relation to what I said.

Unless you assumed that from my other posts I thought the pope was an evil old git with waning power, surrounded by pedophile princes? That is most likely what you meant but unless you clarify how the words in your post had any bearing to those in my own which were quoted - I'm stuck.

Originally posted by 1nOne
A number of people here are trying to justify homosexual acts by pointing to examples of "gayness" within the animal kingdom. Do we now consider animals as role models for human behaviour? Can you not see how backward this thinking is? As humans, we strive to emulate God, not beasts. We look toward the spiritual, not the carnal for guidance. For this reason, the Pope condemns all acts of hedonism: it diverts us from focusing on the eternal Divinity within and degrades us to living in a world that is finite and profane. Can you understand this?

Correction. YOU strive to emulate YOUR god. Lots of us simply try to live as good human beings without striving to emulate a fairy tale.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by 1nOne
A number of people here are trying to justify homosexual acts by pointing to examples of "gayness" within the animal kingdom. Do we now consider animals as role models for human behaviour? Can you not see how backward this thinking is? As humans, we strive to emulate God, not beasts. We look toward the spiritual, not the carnal for guidance. For this reason, the Pope condemns all acts of hedonism: it diverts us from focusing on the eternal Divinity within and degrades us to living in a world that is finite and profane. Can you understand this?

Correction. YOU strive to emulate YOUR god. Lots of us simply try to live as good human beings without striving to emulate a fairy tale.

You have "corrected" nothing. I intuit from what you've written that contempt and philistinism plague your heart and mind. Must you be against and not for something? If religious teachings are unsettling to you, you may find consolation in the more secular Neoplatonism, which essentially says the same about spiritual perfection.

Originally posted by 1nOne

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by 1nOne
A number of people here are trying to justify homosexual acts by pointing to examples of "gayness" within the animal kingdom. Do we now consider animals as role models for human behaviour? Can you not see how backward this thinking is? As humans, we strive to emulate God, not beasts. We look toward the spiritual, not the carnal for guidance. For this reason, the Pope condemns all acts of hedonism: it diverts us from focusing on the eternal Divinity within and degrades us to living in a world that is finite and profane. Can you understand this?

Correction. YOU strive to emulate YOUR god. Lots of us simply try to live as good human beings without striving to emulate a fairy tale.

You have "corrected" nothing. I intuit from what you've written that contempt and philistinism plague your heart and mind. Must you be against and not for something? If religious teachings are unsettling to you, you may find consolation in the more secular Neoplatonism, which essentially says the same about spiritual perfection.

edit on 13-1-2012 by 1nOne because: (no reason given)

Actually, I absolutely did correct the statement. To say that as humans we strive to emulate god is naive and arrogant to the most extreme degree. What you 'intuit' from my post is completely false. I stated nothing about my spirituality, which means that you don't 'intuit' anything, you simply assume.I don't need to find consolation in anything other than leading a good life, respecting life, and not judging those around me.

Its a very easything to do, once you get beyond the arrogance that only you can be right.