Open challenge to christians....

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

So then you basically believe that one is rewarded or punished based on their deeds and NOT whether or not they merely accepted Jesus died for their sins? Or is it supposed to be both?

I made a thread about it a while ago, and most christians did not agree on this idea.

Most "Christians" on this sub-forum who are chronic posters are agenda driven cult members of the dispensationalist variety who are urgently trying to force Armageddon onto the world so they can be raptured, so they are not good representatives of normal Christian ideas about salvation.
The people here you are talking about are the "rapture-ready" sort who believe in belief in their cult philosophy is all they need to be raptured, then they can become good in whatever place they are raptured to.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Most "Christians" on this sub-forum who are chronic posters are agenda driven cult members of the dispensationalist variety who are urgently trying to force Armageddon onto the world so they can be raptured, so they are not good representatives of normal Christian ideas about salvation.

I know you from your other posts....and you are different from them.

Yes, most christians are drooling over armageddon, even if it means millions of people, mothers and suckling infants included, dying horrible deaths.... its all "good" as long as its part of the prophecy outlined in the bible. (Or their interpretation of it)

They claim to "love" Jesus and all that stuff, but to them Jesus is only a sacrificial lamb... killed to wipe away their sins. What this "lamb" taught about the kingdom of heaven, has no value to them. Those lessons are, IMO, not even discussed by them. All I see is talk of how awesome it is that Jesus died so their sins can be wiped clean.

Disgusting, really.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

All I see is talk of how awesome it is that Jesus died so their sins can be wiped clean.

It's a highly distorted version of what a couple of people (as in Martin Luther and John Calvin) came up with as mankind was struggling to free itself from the Dark Ages and into the Age of Enlightenment and was a wide swing of the pendulum in the other direction before it came back to sanity.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Dear sk0rpi0n,

Just coming to ask for a quick bit of information.

I don't think I am drooling over Armageddon, or millions of deaths. As far as Jesus being a sacrificial lamb, I see Him that way, in part. But I thought the sacrifice was to make salvation possible. We build on that, guided by the Spirit. And since Heaven is my goal, anything I can learn about it is wonderful.

But, please, if you catch me in something in my posts which you see as not Christian, please tell me. I really want to know.

Is there a denomination, or group of Christians that fit your description? My circle of acquaintainces is not that large, but I don't know of anyone who fits that description. Do I live in the wrong part of the country?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

There is another version (Mark) of the death of Jesus, where he is the divine warrior who crosses the metaphorical Jordan (death) as the anti-typical Joshua (where the name, Jesus, comes from) to conquer the Promised Land (eternal life).

reply to post by charles1952

I don't think I am drooling over Armageddon, or millions of deaths.

Are you representing yourself as the defender of this philosophy of speeding up the end of the world by promoting wars of mass annihilation? That would make you one of the "unclean spirits like frogs" of Revelation.

When I asked this same question years ago to a bunch of Christian friends (they were breaking my balls!! figuratively) they all took the left exit at Hypocrite Lane...

Yes some passages they take to be literal some as figurative, and they choose which are which, you can never win.

To me, all Hard Core Christians are hypocrites, they preach and preach but when it comes to practice they snub their noses at it. Just like I used to volunteer at a food shelter, and soup kitchen, they wouldn't want anything to do with it.

I'm an atheist.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Dear jmdewey60,

You've put me in full panic mode. I may be misinterpreting you so I want to double check this before I have my heart attack. Armageddon, whatever that is, will come eventually. I'm sure there will be deaths. I don't like death. God doesn't like death.

I don't want to encourage, or speed up, or help death along. I don't believe that we can change the timing of the end of the world by our actions. the end of the world will be terrible, why would I want to hurry it along?

What philosophy am I defending that wants to promote wars of mass annihilation? What's going on here? Help!

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

You've put me in full panic mode. I may be misinterpreting you so I want to double check this before I have my heart attack. Armageddon, whatever that is, will come eventually. I'm sure there will be deaths. I don't like death. God doesn't like death.

I don't want to encourage, or speed up, or help death along. I don't believe that we can change the timing of the end of the world by our actions. the end of the world will be terrible, why would I want to hurry it along?

What philosophy am I defending that wants to promote wars of mass annihilation? What's going on here? Help!

Armageddon . . . will come . . . there will be deaths . . . the end of the world . . . the end of the world will be terrible. . .

Just from your last post. Would you like to explain how you know this?

reply to post by jmdewey60

Dear jmdewey60,

Armageddon comes when it's God's time, not mine. Messing with God's plans is foolish and useless. I suppose humanity could cause vast death, if it wanted to, at any time, but that is not of God.

With respect,
Charles1952

You know the bible says not to test God in such a way. If you look at the Messiah in the desert for 40 days Satan tried to get him to do the same things you are doing. Weren't scriptures used as well?

Part of the problem is if you are going to use the bible to test Christianity it is not that difficult. Christianity follows after its own doctrines not the Bible. For example

where in the bible story does it say the creation happened in seven twenty four hour periods?
where in the bible does it say evolution doesn't exist or that it was not a part of creation?
where does it say in the bible that man was not created through an evolutionary process?
where in the bible does it say there was 3 wise men?
where in the bible does it say it is ok for male religious leaders to molest young boys?
where in the bible does it call a church building a house of god?
where in the bible does it say you have to become a Christian to be saved?

Believing in the bible does not make anyone a Christian. Bellieving in a Christian doctrine, one of many, makes you a Christian. Again no where in the bible does it say becoming a Christian saves anyone.

reply to post by charles1952


Ok, so you don't actually have any reason to believe in Armageddon being a real physical thing that ends the world, you just do I, guess by osmosis from people around you.

Originally posted by Engafan
When I asked this same question years ago to a bunch of Christian friends (they were breaking my balls!! figuratively) they all took the left exit at Hypocrite Lane...

Yes some passages they take to be literal some as figurative, and they choose which are which, you can never win.

To me, all Hard Core Christians are hypocrites, they preach and preach but when it comes to practice they snub their noses at it. Just like I used to volunteer at a food shelter, and soup kitchen, they wouldn't want anything to do with it.

I'm an atheist.

If what you are saying about Christianity and its adherents is true, and they themselves prove that it is by there own words and actions, it should not be surprising that their doctrines and their God is not of the bible. Why is it that Athiests seem to think that Christian doctrines are from the bible? They make up whatever they want even if it doesn't exist in the bible and people fall for it, even Atheists. Why? Here is three quotes from three different people from an article "Actually, that's not in the Bible" By John Blake, CNN


"biblical ignorance is so pervasive that it even reaches groups of people who should know better"

"people prefer knowing biblical passages that reinforce their pre-existing beliefs"

“Most people who profess a deep love of the Bible have never actually read the book,”
“They have memorized parts of texts that they can string together to prove the biblical basis for whatever it is they believe in,” he says, “but they ignore the vast majority of the text."

We are surprised because the ones that should know better include self proclaimed Atheists. For example many think the bible says there was three wise men or kings who visited the new born Christ in a manger when he was a baby. Nothing in the bible states three individuals or states wise men or kings, nothing states they visited him in a manger, nothing states he was a new born when he was visited by the magi. Also there is nothing in the bible that says the earth was made in seven twenty four hour periods. The bible doesn't deny evolution. The bible doesn't say you need to become a Christian to be saved.

Why add anything or take anything away from the stories? The problem is where does it end? For Christianity it doesn't and most of what Christians believe is exaclty what was written about would happen.

"but evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived."

"For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables."

"They profess that they know God, but by their works they deny him, being abominable, disobedient, and unfit for any good work."

"But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction. Many will follow their immoral ways, and as a result, the way of the truth will be maligned."

Your statements support the scriptures.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Dear jmdewey60,

Thanks for making me work, I'd hate to get sloppy. My direct understanding of Armageddon comes from this:

Revelations 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East.
13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

I am not an impure spirit sent to gather the rulers of the world to the battlefield of Armageddon. I do know that battles involve casualties and are horrible things.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

I am not an impure spirit sent to gather the rulers of the world to the battlefield of Armageddon. I do know that battles involve casualties and are horrible things.

But you do believe there are real, literal frog looking spirits who enter into the kings of the earth?
Could you name one of those kings?

reply to post by jmdewey60

Dear jmdewey60,

You know this isn't very fair. I get confused easily enough as it is, then you give me this messge?

But you do believe there are real, literal frog looking spirits who enter into the kings of the earth?
Could you name one of those kings

As far as the King's names, uhhh, Bob? Frank?

You've left me completely behind and an explanation would help me cope. I have given no thought to the frogs or the Kings and that fact doesn't seem to be interfering with my spiritual life. Why should I think about them?

I'm missing your point completely.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


My point is that it is not possible to understand the passage you quoted literally.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Dear jmdewey60,

Of course you can't understand it literally. It's visionary, apocalyptic, prophecy. Never meant to be understood literally, silliest thing I ever heard.

It's all true, of course. True as can be. But literal? My goodness sake's of course not. Never said it was. Leave a poor old man alone and go after those young whippersnappers that are teaching crazy things, that's my advice.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952
If the number in your user name is the year you were born, you are two years older than I am.

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
In fact, I've never seen faith in the Christian god do anything useful or practical whatsoever.

I have seen faith cause hate, hateful speech, condemnation, refusal to accept science and proven reality, death, torture, and waste.

I'm very curious to hear the responses of the faithful.

Never seen anything useful or practical whatsoever caused by faith in Christian God?



You don't know of anyone starting a shelter house for the homeless - my Christian friends did, or anyone who started a support group for single moms - a group of my Christian friends and I did.

You never heard of anyone drive sick people to doctors appointments?, donate to a food pantry?, run a food pantry that feeds over 300 families a week?, knit blankets (afghans) for people in nursing homes?, visit people in nursing homes and hospitals?, provide emergency funds for rent and prescription medicine?, sponsor blood drives?, have an adopt- a- family Christmas program providing the needy with a real Christmas?, make casseroles for the homeless?, fix meals for families who are hurting?, all of which people from my Catholic church do plus many more acts of love because we have faith that Jesus really did say: "Love one another as I have loved you."

These things are call faith in action. I'm not just talking churches, individuals do plenty on their own, like donate to charitable causes. My favorite is www.heifer.org... Check it out. I like the idea of giving people in 3rd world countries a chance.

Maybe you don't see or know of these things because they don't make the 5 PM news, maybe you should look around before you start throwing stones. Your words are where I see ...... "hate, hateful speech, condemnation," Deny a little ignorance here, please.

I am not just saying this in reply to the poster, but to each of you that starred his/her post.